Hi-Level Assignments

[Donctor]

I'm trying to get a clear history of where the Hi-Levels were assigned by year (or I guess by decade if necessary). Any corrections or additions would be greatly appreciated. What I have so far is:

Hi-Level Coaches: Filled in as spares on Superliner I trains until the Superliner IIs arrived. After that, they were slowly retired and finished their days with a brief stint in CA.

Hi-Level Trans-Dorms: Used on all full-consist western LD trains until the Superliner II Dorms arrived.

Hi-Level Lounges: Used on the Sunset in the early 1990s, then to the CONL until the Superliner IIs finished delivery, then finally to the CS as Parlours.

Hi-Level Diners: Used on the Pioneer until the Superliner IIs arrived. Possibly also used on the Desert Wind.

 

[NativeSon5859]

I'm pretty sure that the CONO used a Hi-Level Diner that was marketed as a "Dining/Lounge Car" when it first went Superliner.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

1) The Hi-levels were used on the San Joaquins with lounges or diners serving as food service cars until the delivery of the first set of California cars.

2) A select few hi-level coaches were fitted with retention toilets, refurbished, and ran on the Heartland Flyer.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

1) The Hi-levels were used on the San Joaquins with lounges or diners serving as food service cars until the delivery of the first set of California cars. 2) A select few hi-level coaches were fitted with retention toilets, refurbished, and ran on the Heartland Flyer.

I believe the final Hi Levels in Amtrak service were those on the Heartland Flyer; they usually were Cars 1 and 3 with Car 2 (the middle) being a Superliner Coach with the lower level Lounge. Whenever I had the choice, I always scampered my tail into a Hi Level to find a seat.

 

[Trogdor]

In the early 2000s, Hi-Levels ran as the extra coach CHI-MSP on the Empire Builder. One train I was on back in January 2004 had a Hi-Level in place of a regular Superliner Coach all they way from PDX. The interior actually looked nicer than the Superliner coaches at that time.

 

[Donctor]

The October 29, 1989 timetable has "See-Level Lounges" running on both the TE and the Sunset, with one operating New Orleans-Los Angeles and the other Chicago-Houston. Interesting.

 

[NativeSon5859]

The October 29, 1989 timetable has "See-Level Lounges" running on both the TE and the Sunset, with one operating New Orleans-Los Angeles and the other Chicago-Houston. Interesting.

"See-Level Lounge Cars" are now the Pacific Parlor Cars if I'm not mistaken...modified, of course.

 

[Hanno]

I'm trying to get a clear history of where the Hi-Levels were assigned by year (or I guess by decade if necessary). Any corrections or additions would be greatly appreciated. What I have so far is:

Hi-Level Coaches: Filled in as spares on Superliner I trains until the Superliner IIs arrived. After that, they were slowly retired and finished their days with a brief stint in CA.

Hi-Level Trans-Dorms: Used on all full-consist western LD trains until the Superliner II Dorms arrived.

Hi-Level Lounges: Used on the Sunset in the early 1990s, then to the CONL until the Superliner IIs finished delivery, then finally to the CS as Parlours.

Hi-Level Diners: Used on the Pioneer until the Superliner IIs arrived. Possibly also used on the Desert Wind.

Please excuse my ignorance but what is a Hi-Level?

 

[the_traveler]

Please excuse my ignorance but what is a Hi-Level?

Hi-Levels were the bi-level cars (before the Superliners) used by the railroads of old - as opposed to single level cars.

 

[PetalumaLoco]

Here's some Hi-Level pics

Photo Archive

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I'm trying to get a clear history of where the Hi-Levels were assigned by year (or I guess by decade if necessary). Any corrections or additions would be greatly appreciated. What I have so far is:

Hi-Level Coaches: Filled in as spares on Superliner I trains until the Superliner IIs arrived. After that, they were slowly retired and finished their days with a brief stint in CA.

Hi-Level Trans-Dorms: Used on all full-consist western LD trains until the Superliner II Dorms arrived.

Hi-Level Lounges: Used on the Sunset in the early 1990s, then to the CONL until the Superliner IIs finished delivery, then finally to the CS as Parlours.

Hi-Level Diners: Used on the Pioneer until the Superliner IIs arrived. Possibly also used on the Desert Wind.

Please excuse my ignorance but what is a Hi-Level?

Hi Level are cars built before Amtrak by the Santa Fe Railroad about 1956. They were used to re equip the El Capitan, a deluxe but all coach train from Chicago to Los Angeles. They built new coaches, lounges and diners, but no sleepers. About ten years later the El Capitan was requipped again, the coaches that is, not the diner and lounge. The thus displaced high level coaches went on to the San Francisco Chief and the Texas Chief, Santa Fe trains.

At least some of these were inherited by Amtrak.They served as the proto type for today's Superliners and at quick glance are quite similar. Yes, I know one can find many detailed differences but speeding down the track at 90 mph they are quite similar.

The Santa Fe (full name, Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe) was one of the more pro-passenger lines in the days before Amtrak. It had several trains going several places. Today's Southwest Chief is in line from the former Super Chief.

At times in the past the traditionally all sleeper Super Chief and all coach El Capitan operated within a few minutes of each other, or sometimes even combined as one train.

 

[Hanno]

I'm trying to get a clear history of where the Hi-Levels were assigned by year (or I guess by decade if necessary). Any corrections or additions would be greatly appreciated. What I have so far is:

Hi-Level Coaches: Filled in as spares on Superliner I trains until the Superliner IIs arrived. After that, they were slowly retired and finished their days with a brief stint in CA.

Hi-Level Trans-Dorms: Used on all full-consist western LD trains until the Superliner II Dorms arrived.

Hi-Level Lounges: Used on the Sunset in the early 1990s, then to the CONL until the Superliner IIs finished delivery, then finally to the CS as Parlours.

Hi-Level Diners: Used on the Pioneer until the Superliner IIs arrived. Possibly also used on the Desert Wind.

Please excuse my ignorance but what is a Hi-Level?

Hi Level are cars built before Amtrak by the Santa Fe Railroad about 1956. They were used to re equip the El Capitan, a deluxe but all coach train from Chicago to Los Angeles. They built new coaches, lounges and diners, but no sleepers. About ten years later the El Capitan was requipped again, the coaches that is, not the diner and lounge. The thus displaced high level coaches went on to the San Francisco Chief and the Texas Chief, Santa Fe trains.

At least some of these were inherited by Amtrak.They served as the proto type for today's Superliners and at quick glance are quite similar. Yes, I know one can find many detailed differences but speeding down the track at 90 mph they are quite similar.

The Santa Fe (full name, Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe) was one of the more pro-passenger lines in the days before Amtrak. It had several trains going several places. Today's Southwest Chief is in line from the former Super Chief.

At times in the past the traditionally all sleeper Super Chief and all coach El Capitan operated within a few minutes of each other, or sometimes even combined as one train.

Thanks for taking the time to explain. So much to learn but so many excellent sources of information.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

It speaks loads about the good old Santa Fe that it was still experiminting with the passenger train business in 1956.

The pre-high level El Capitan was a perfectly fine train on its own right, it could be argued that it did not need any "fixing".

But there goes Santa Fe.

It is important to realize that in the world of 1956 many railroads were thinking abut throwing in the towel.

Thanks to Santa Fe's enterprising spirit Amtrak today has so many fine Superliner cars.

 

[Donctor]

Thanks to Santa Fe's enterprising spirit Amtrak today has so many fine Superliner cars.

Were bi-level commuter cars invented before or after the '56 ElCap? If the commuters were invented prior to the ElCap cars, don't you think that Amtrak would've eventually figured it out? Besides, the SuperDomes / Great Domes were almost entirely double-decker - they could've eventually served as a model for the Superliners, though I guess that'd be a bit of a reach.

 

[Donctor]

"See-Level Lounge Cars" are now the Pacific Parlor Cars if I'm not mistaken...modified, of course.

That's my understanding.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Thanks to Santa Fe's enterprising spirit Amtrak today has so many fine Superliner cars.

Were bi-level commuter cars invented before or after the '56 ElCap? If the commuters were invented prior to the ElCap cars, don't you think that Amtrak would've eventually figured it out? Besides, the SuperDomes / Great Domes were almost entirely double-decker - they could've eventually served as a model for the Superliners, though I guess that'd be a bit of a reach.

Offhand I am not sure when the commuter double deckers started,that plus the full length domes would seem to make the caae as you suggest wide open. However.....my only reason for saying the ElCap cars served as a prototype is specifically because I have read that many times through the years. I have lots of books and lots of magazines.Plus being alive and well during all the above.

But who, now,can be sure that it did not take all of that to fuel Amtrak's imagination.

If is an oft repeated statement at least that the ELCap was the basis. After all there is quite a difference beween the interior of a long distance bi level and a commuter bi level.

One thing Amtrak did all its own was build a superliner sleeping car. Never had the railroads in the past had any second floor rooms. There were plenty of sleepers which had domes, yes, but on top of sleepers they were always the 24 seat camel hump dome arrangements.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

One thing Amtrak did all its own was build a superliner sleeping car. Never had the railroads in the past had any second floor rooms. There were plenty of sleepers which had domes, yes, but on top of sleepers they were always the 24 seat camel hump dome arrangements.

Actually, first of all, as I'm sure you know, Budd built them. Budd also was the primary designer of them. Santa Fe was the one willing to take a chance on them.

Budd did design a hi-level sleeper, and a single prototype was built. It was intended to re-equip the Super Chief. The prototype was built in about '60, and was rebuilt into a coach car, ATSF 538, AMTK 9912, H-number 39912. Its main problem was that Santa Fe wasn't interested. They were not interested in the car because they held... 22 people. Basically, the upper level held full-width, double-length bedrooms, while the lower level held standard sized roomettes, with stair cases leading to each bedroom and to the two end sections.

Honestly, from a business standpoint, it was a stupid design. But it did exist.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Thanks to Santa Fe's enterprising spirit Amtrak today has so many fine Superliner cars.

Were bi-level commuter cars invented before or after the '56 ElCap? If the commuters were invented prior to the ElCap cars, don't you think that Amtrak would've eventually figured it out? Besides, the SuperDomes / Great Domes were almost entirely double-decker - they could've eventually served as a model for the Superliners, though I guess that'd be a bit of a reach.

I believe the Burlington started running bi-level gallery commuter cars in the late 1940's. The Chicago and North Western began equipping its Chicago commuter trains with gallery cars starting in 1955. I think Long Island operated two-level commuter cars even earlier.

The North Western also ran gallery cars on intercity trains, in the 1960's, some of which survived until Amtrak and were used by Amtrak in limited service in its early years.

The Santa Fe Hi-Levels were undoubtedly the inspiration for the Superliners.

 

[railiner]

Thanks to Santa Fe's enterprising spirit Amtrak today has so many fine Superliner cars.

Were bi-level commuter cars invented before or after the '56 ElCap? If the commuters were invented prior to the ElCap cars, don't you think that Amtrak would've eventually figured it out? Besides, the SuperDomes / Great Domes were almost entirely double-decker - they could've eventually served as a model for the Superliners, though I guess that'd be a bit of a reach.

I believe the Burlington started running bi-level gallery commuter cars in the late 1940's. The Chicago and North Western began equipping its Chicago commuter trains with gallery cars starting in 1955. I think Long Island operated two-level commuter cars even earlier.

The North Western also ran gallery cars on intercity trains, in the 1960's, some of which survived until Amtrak and were used by Amtrak in limited service in its early years.

The Santa Fe Hi-Levels were undoubtedly the inspiration for the Superliners.

The Burlington and the Budd company, long collaborators in rail passenger innovations, introduced the first gallery commuter coaches in 1950. The LIRR 'double deckers' were designed with seats arranged in a 'duplex' design, accessed from a single aisle, as opposed for the upper and lower aisles present in gallery cars.

The Northwestern had the only long distance gallery cars, with reclining seats. These were built by Pullman Standard. Amtrak did use them, with cafes included, on some short haul routes out of Chicago, such as the Blackhawk and the Prairie Marksman.

Sante Fe bought additional Hi Level coaches in 1964...among the last long distance equipment purchased by railroads prior to Amtrak. One unique feature on the Hi Level Lounge Car, Santa Fe called them "The Top of the Cap" (for El Capitan), was an upper level restroom...the only one on the train. In the days before ADA, this was their accommodation for ease of use by elderly or handicapped. On the lower level was the "Kachina Coffee Shop". The Hi Level diner was the only Hi Level car to have six wheel trucks, due to its heavy wight.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Also there were double deck commuter cars on the Southern Pacific between San Francisco and San Jose. That was possibliy my first commuter train to ride. That was a treat for me being a Southeasterner as I was/am.

These trains operated straight out of San Francisco proper,no bridges, bus, boat, etc needed. At one time there were long distance trains out of SF proper to LA and such points south, also. Trains like the Lark and the various Daylights.

 

[DET63]

Hi-Level cars and Superliners, unlike the Great Domes and other dome cars, had access from one car to the next on the upper level. They could thus not be used with "conventinoal" equipment, unless some sort of "transition" vehicles were inserted between them. The Great Domes, although being full-length domes, were accessed at the same level as conventional equipment, and the lower floor was actually at a lower level than the main level of conventional cars. (Actually, the lower floor of Superliners is similarly below the floor level of conventional equipment, but this isn't noticeable since Superliners aren't used in trains with conventional equipment (other than baggage cars and the occasional "private varnish").)

I don't know how the 2-level commuter-train cars were accessed in the '50s (or whenever they were first used). Some used by Caltrain today are the "lozenge" cars, with three levels (the third level being "between" the other two levels at the end, permitting access to other "lozenge" cars or even conventional equipment).

 

[wrjensen]

CB&Q got the first of the 25 Gallery cars in 1950 cars 700-729 (Budd order 9676-041, for people keeping track at home) then 8 more in 1953 5 in 1955, 10 in 1957, and so on. 79 cars in total over 15 years. many of this cars are still running.

ATSF bought the Hi-level cars in 1952 delivered in 1955.

 

[the_traveler]

One unique feature on the Hi Level Lounge Car, Santa Fe called them "The Top of the Cap" (for El Capitan), was an upper level restroom...the only one on the train.

Dumb question - but in the days before retention toilets, where and how did the upper level restroom "dump" (no pun intended)? :huh:

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

One unique feature on the Hi Level Lounge Car, Santa Fe called them "The Top of the Cap" (for El Capitan), was an upper level restroom...the only one on the train.

Dumb question - but in the days before retention toilets, where and how did the upper level restroom "dump" (no pun intended)? :huh:

You do realize they can make longer pipes, right?

 

[the_traveler]

DUH - you're right! I need to get on a train fast - I'm not thinking straight! :wacko: