I am not sure if you are refering to Greyhound's timetable index map, which as Swadian has pointed out, is way out of date, or the latter mentioned map....but in the case of the former, it might not hurt to mention it to Greyhound's corporate contact on their website....
Greyhound Kills Overbooking, Expands Service, Introduces Yield Mgmt
- Thread starter Swadian Hardcore
- Start date
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Yes, I agree. The paper is extremely dry and crumble's unless you handle it extremely gently. Too bad the copyright owner's don't see a potential market for a reprint....this would have been a good year to publish it perhaps, to tie it in somehow with Greyhound's centennial celebration....perhaps a Guide from fifty years ago would have been nice...
Looking at that great map brings to mind a rather rare pooled operation by Greyhound Lines and Continental Trailways between Louisville and Scottsville (SEG), and Scottsville and Nashville (CTL) for a number of years on a once-a-day thru route. In later years, Continental Trailways changed pool partner to Kentucky Bus Line on a slightly different route, Louiville to Leitchfield (KBL), and Leitchfield to Nashville on CTL. In the end, CTL ran all the way, themself, via Leitchfield.
Long Train Runnin'
Engineer
Thank you for the detailed reply. I was always curious how such a long haul bus trip would actually work.
Is there anyway to find the routing on the Leitchfield to Nashville bus, i.e. what roads it took? My wife is from Leitchfield and in fact, we just spent the weekend there visiting friends and family. The reason I ask is I don't know of any direct major roads, even state roads between Leitchfield and points directly south without going back to Elizabethtown. They may have been what they did, but just curious.
Thanks!!
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
I'm not sure which route the Leitchfield-Nashville would've taken exactly, but looking at maps I'm thinking they took Kentucky 259 south to meet US 31 West, then continued through Bowling Green to Nashville. Most of those Greyhound routes in Kentucky are gone now. The Limiteds bypass not only Elizabethtown, but also Bowling Green.
I see Kentucky has a lot of long Parkways, why do they have so many Parkways? I remember all the Southeast Interstates have this windbreak of trees. Quite annoying because you can't see anything. Greyhound has really bad service along I-59, nothing between Meridian and New Orleans, or Birmingham and Chattanooga. Greyhound ought to reinstate the New York-New Orleans Limited via Knoxville. Wouldn't need to add stops except one at Hattiesburg. Got to admit, I-59 is probably the most boring Interstate.
The biggest problem facing the bus industry currently may be the lack of accurate bus maps. Greyhound should at least make an accurate map of their own routes. Right now the only way to know which bus goes from A to B is to skim through the entire System Timetable.
I see Kentucky has a lot of long Parkways, why do they have so many Parkways? I remember all the Southeast Interstates have this windbreak of trees. Quite annoying because you can't see anything. Greyhound has really bad service along I-59, nothing between Meridian and New Orleans, or Birmingham and Chattanooga. Greyhound ought to reinstate the New York-New Orleans Limited via Knoxville. Wouldn't need to add stops except one at Hattiesburg. Got to admit, I-59 is probably the most boring Interstate.
The biggest problem facing the bus industry currently may be the lack of accurate bus maps. Greyhound should at least make an accurate map of their own routes. Right now the only way to know which bus goes from A to B is to skim through the entire System Timetable.
259 would be possible, but it is one really winding road. I've driven it a number of times and it is a terrible drive.
All the Parkways (some now Interstate numbers) were developed starting in the late 1950's and early 60's and into the 70's. They were all toll roads with 100% of the collection going to payoff the bonds that financed them to begin with. That has all be accomplished, now, and they are all free to use. A nice network, along with the few interstates to make traveling Kentucky very easy.
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
Too bad Kentucky has a poor bus network to use those Parkways, and a nonexistent rail network. Forces people to drive everywhere. I mean, Nevada doesn't have much, but at least the major roads have buses and we also have the CZ.
I think someone should connect Washington DC and Memphis with a bus route along US 50 to Bridgeport, I-79 to Charleston, I-64 to Lexington, the Kentucky Parkways to Fulton, and US 51 to Memphis. Would cover a lot of ground for very little expense.
I don't see the point of Cumberland Parkway, though, it seems to go from Bowling Green to Somerset and end without any further major roads connecting, unless someone wants to dive sound on US 27 to Knoxville. Or north to Lexington, but that would be better by going through Elizabethtown.
Someone should really start a bus service along the main Kentucky Parkway, though. Same company could also restart the Washington-Cincinnati-Saint Louis via US 50, basically the route of the old B&O National Limited. Really surprised at the lack of service from Pittsburgh to Charleston, someone really needs to start a line-haul bus company in that area.
I think someone should connect Washington DC and Memphis with a bus route along US 50 to Bridgeport, I-79 to Charleston, I-64 to Lexington, the Kentucky Parkways to Fulton, and US 51 to Memphis. Would cover a lot of ground for very little expense.
I don't see the point of Cumberland Parkway, though, it seems to go from Bowling Green to Somerset and end without any further major roads connecting, unless someone wants to dive sound on US 27 to Knoxville. Or north to Lexington, but that would be better by going through Elizabethtown.
Someone should really start a bus service along the main Kentucky Parkway, though. Same company could also restart the Washington-Cincinnati-Saint Louis via US 50, basically the route of the old B&O National Limited. Really surprised at the lack of service from Pittsburgh to Charleston, someone really needs to start a line-haul bus company in that area.
the_traveler
Engineer
A good question to think about:
Why do you DRIVE on a Parkway but you PARK on a driveway? :huh:
Why do you DRIVE on a Parkway but you PARK on a driveway? :huh:
Ispolkom
Engineer
Lord have mercy, have you ever driven on US 50 in West Virginia? It's up and down and left and right, and you aren't going to make any sort of good time. There's a reason the National Road went north. If You're going between Washington and Cincinnati, you want to take I-68 throught Cumberland, Morgantown, etc. I've made the mistake of US 50 once, and other than some great pepperoni rolls, it was an long, slow drive, which didn't go through much population.
I'm shocked, though, at the notion of Kentucky retiring tolls after its toll roads have been paid for. Is the ending of tolls there unique?
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
That's why you leave the driving to the bus driver. For example, people always say the Vancouver-Osoyoos and Vancouver-Calgary drives are really tough. Doesn't matter if there's a bus service, those CDL guys know what they're doing and if the scenery is good, what's the big deal? The more difficult the road is, the more it favors buses over cars. Just like how Greyhound's Whitehorse route is successful in the summer but not in the winter. And the Canadian Rockies bus traffic is picking up since Greyhound Canada is getting rid of their uncomfortable buses. Now I just hope they get the new computer system too, would get rid of overbooking and possible revive bus service in Canada, just like what happened in the US.
Yeah, people say it's the short, quick routes earning most of the cash, but even Reno-SLC-Denver is popular now. Then again, not much suspicious pax on this route, passengers are happy with the buses too, and Berthoud Pass is one tough drive. Every time I see the Denver bus, it has kids on it. Most Greyhound buses in the summer have kids now. CZ ridership should still be going up, too. So just let the expansion happen, the more trains and buses, the more alternatives people have to the old "fly or drive". And Greyhound's getting better and better.
What I'm saying is that, if a road is tough, then relieve the population along that road with a safe and comfortable bus service.
Yeah, people say it's the short, quick routes earning most of the cash, but even Reno-SLC-Denver is popular now. Then again, not much suspicious pax on this route, passengers are happy with the buses too, and Berthoud Pass is one tough drive. Every time I see the Denver bus, it has kids on it. Most Greyhound buses in the summer have kids now. CZ ridership should still be going up, too. So just let the expansion happen, the more trains and buses, the more alternatives people have to the old "fly or drive". And Greyhound's getting better and better.
What I'm saying is that, if a road is tough, then relieve the population along that road with a safe and comfortable bus service.
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You still need enough passengers on a route to give critical mass, though. Just because a route is scenic between two parts or has a particularly unpleasant road does not mean that bus service will succeed. You still need enough people to ride the bus on a regular basis to make it worthwhile. An indirect route probably won't have much through traffic, so you'll be reliant on the people getting on or off at intermediate points for the vast majority of your ridership. If there's a lot of small towns along the route and not a lot of large ones, you'll probably be struggling for ridership and it will likely lose money.
Looking at the timetable from 1 August 1971, they did indeed take a strange route. As in many cases, SEG already held rights on the better routings, so to get around that, they had to be creative.
Here's the stations in order, from Leitchfield south...if you have a good map, you can figure the highways involved...
Leitchfield, Ky., Sweeden, Brownsville, Rhoda, Brownsville Jct. (31-259), Smith's Grove, Scottsville, Westmoreland, Tn., Bethpage, Gallatin, Hendersonville, Madison, and Nashville.
You've been watching old George Carlin video's, eh??A good question to think about:
Why do you DRIVE on a Parkway but you PARK on a driveway? :huh:
I have travelled over US 50, from coast to coast (not all on one trip), and enjoyed every mile of it. Capitol Greyhound Lines ran it all the way from Washington to Saint Louis, with three daily trips into the late '60's, early '70's. The Official Bus Guide had a "Discover America" byway blurb in a 1968 edition, that promoted sending traveler's on this scenic "Thousand Mile Detour, that only adds five hours to the trip". Agents were instructed to mark the tickets "Via Capitol local route", to avoid passenger's from being directed to the express route via Pittsburgh. I vividly recall the climb up the Alleghenies, and after one ess curve after another, seeing the sign warning of "The Famous Hairpin Curve", a real mountain switchback, like you would see in Colorado climbing Loveland or Berthoud Pass. Then there was the nice rest stop at the Mount Storm Lodge...
All in all, a real nice break from the Turnpike and I-70.
As for eliminating tolls....I recall the toll on the Southern State Parkway on Long Island coming down, the various toll barriers on the Connecticut Turnpike (now I-95), coming down, and the Broomfield Toll on the Denver-Boulder Turnpike coming down....that's about it. Since that time, toll roads have returned to Colorado in a big way....
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
Again, rural bus services can make money. Look at Vancouver-Osoyoos for one. Biggest town after Chilliwack is Penticton. US 50 service could lose money, could earn money. After all, you have Parkersburg which is about the same size as Penticton, also Winchester, Clarksburg, Chillicothe, Seymour, and Vincennes, all with more population than the other towns along the Osoyoos route. Look at all the other little towns along US 50 where one could stop, add some creative advertising with scenery in mind, there you have a profitable bus route, albeit needing smaller buses, possibly a Temsa 30- or 35-footer, or whatever 40-footer with low fuel consumption.
But remember, I initially said someone should start a Washington-Memphis bus service covering the Kentucky Parkway, then expand to US 50 once they have more money. As for that route, maybe taking the Washington-Charleston shortcut via Elkins would be smart, poor intermediate stops, but can complete the segment in 6 hours all-inclusive. Or for intermediate stops, either US 211 via Harrisonburg or US 29 via Charlottesville.
But remember, I initially said someone should start a Washington-Memphis bus service covering the Kentucky Parkway, then expand to US 50 once they have more money. As for that route, maybe taking the Washington-Charleston shortcut via Elkins would be smart, poor intermediate stops, but can complete the segment in 6 hours all-inclusive. Or for intermediate stops, either US 211 via Harrisonburg or US 29 via Charlottesville.
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
Railiner, I looked up the Leitchfield-Nashville routing on Google Maps, since my Rand McNally is damaged and I need to get a new one. They took an even more problematic route than the one I thought, the bus would've taken Kentucky 259 to a point south of Brownsville, then continued down Kentucky 101, past US-31 West, all the way to Scottsville, junction with US 31 East, continuing down that road to Nashville.
The reason, as you mentioned, is probably because Southeastern Greyhound took up US 31 West, the best route for making stops in Bowling Green and Franklin. I'm thinking, because US 31 East bypassed all the big towns along the way, I-65 was built mostly along US 31 West, except bypassing Bowling Green and Franklin. That explains why Greyhound Limiteds do not stop in Bowling Green, even though it could generate some good ridership. Only Locals stop at Bowling Green nowadays.
I was always wondering why the Denver-Boulder Turnpike has no tolls, thanks for explaining. Now of course, the E-470 has tolls and the HOV lanes have tolls, around Denver. Wasn't there for a long time.
Reminds me of the Reno-Denver route, it technically takes US 40 all the way, well, Reno-Park City is Interstate 80 now, but after that it's still US-40 until Idaho Springs, and there's only tiny towns along the way, but the route still earns money and gets good passenger loads. Proof that some rural routes can indeed make money, even with a big 45-footer bus.
BTW, Greyhound ad on this page right now.
The reason, as you mentioned, is probably because Southeastern Greyhound took up US 31 West, the best route for making stops in Bowling Green and Franklin. I'm thinking, because US 31 East bypassed all the big towns along the way, I-65 was built mostly along US 31 West, except bypassing Bowling Green and Franklin. That explains why Greyhound Limiteds do not stop in Bowling Green, even though it could generate some good ridership. Only Locals stop at Bowling Green nowadays.
I was always wondering why the Denver-Boulder Turnpike has no tolls, thanks for explaining. Now of course, the E-470 has tolls and the HOV lanes have tolls, around Denver. Wasn't there for a long time.
Reminds me of the Reno-Denver route, it technically takes US 40 all the way, well, Reno-Park City is Interstate 80 now, but after that it's still US-40 until Idaho Springs, and there's only tiny towns along the way, but the route still earns money and gets good passenger loads. Proof that some rural routes can indeed make money, even with a big 45-footer bus.
BTW, Greyhound ad on this page right now.
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Dallas/Ft Worth eliminated the Toll on what is now I-30 between the two cities!
But unfortunately toll roads and toll lanes are now all the rage in Texas, especially in Austin and Houston!
But unfortunately toll roads and toll lanes are now all the rage in Texas, especially in Austin and Houston!
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G
guest
Guest
If you buy a full fare ticket, can you have it broken up into as many stops and layovers as you want, as long as your stops are on the route and you complete travel within one year? (And would it work on a Free Award Ticket to Anywhere?)
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
My quote function is not working, but to the Guest, you can't do that, because that would cause overbooking again. Think about it, it's best that you have to ride on the schedule and date exactly on your ticket. If you stay a night and ride the next day's bus, hopping aboard before the actual ticketed passengers get on, then some people might be left off. So you have to book in segments, costs more money in total but not so bad if you catch a good deal with the aforementioned Yield Management, and gets you a lot of places for touring with lots of schedules without having to sleep on the bus.
This is the same reason why Greyhound got rid of their unlimited-travel passes. Back when such passes were available, overbooking was inevitable. People would hop on early in line and leave out the ticketed passengers. Back then you could also ride the next schedule on the same day if you missed your own schedule, without buying another ticket. And Greyhound also had varying bus sizes. This was happening as late as 2013.
What this explains is that Greyhound was never intentionally overbooking, they were trying to offer flexible travel, with flexible bus sizes, tickets, passes, etc., so they just sold as many tickets as possible and decided to add buses to each run as needed. Now it's all organized but inflexible. Now if a bus gets sold out early on, then they plan for an extra bus ahead of time.
Also, it appears Greyhound Canada also got rid of overbooking. Their site now says passengers must travel on the exact schedule and date on the ticket. But just no yield management, and no flexibility. Commuter runs are probably still flexible, they sometimes use smaller buses on the commuter runs.
If you miss your bus and the next bus has a lot of extra seat, the drive will still let you on, unless there is a major city before your destination, when the bus could "top out".
This is the same reason why Greyhound got rid of their unlimited-travel passes. Back when such passes were available, overbooking was inevitable. People would hop on early in line and leave out the ticketed passengers. Back then you could also ride the next schedule on the same day if you missed your own schedule, without buying another ticket. And Greyhound also had varying bus sizes. This was happening as late as 2013.
What this explains is that Greyhound was never intentionally overbooking, they were trying to offer flexible travel, with flexible bus sizes, tickets, passes, etc., so they just sold as many tickets as possible and decided to add buses to each run as needed. Now it's all organized but inflexible. Now if a bus gets sold out early on, then they plan for an extra bus ahead of time.
Also, it appears Greyhound Canada also got rid of overbooking. Their site now says passengers must travel on the exact schedule and date on the ticket. But just no yield management, and no flexibility. Commuter runs are probably still flexible, they sometimes use smaller buses on the commuter runs.
If you miss your bus and the next bus has a lot of extra seat, the drive will still let you on, unless there is a major city before your destination, when the bus could "top out".
That's a pretty good sumnation. And that policy creates a bone of contention between GL and my company, GL's NY State pool partner....
We still do things more or less the old fashioned way...we still sell to all who wish to travel, and then run extra sections as necessary. We will even sometimes put on a "double", for a single extra passenger, on our own local routes where we do not pool with GL.
Is that, in the words of "Triple H" of the World Wrestling Federation, "What's good for business"? Maybe yes, maybe no, but our owner thinks so.....
And whereas traditional "local" rural bus routes have pretty much gone from GL's and other carrier's networks, some of ours are actually growing.
I miss the days when tourists had the flexibility of asking for a stopover at whim, at any time. And of the unlimited travel passes, too.
rickycourtney
Conductor
So has Greyhound actually sent out a press release or anything official saying they've eliminated overbooking or this just all original research?
I noticed online that Greyhound says:
I noticed online that Greyhound says:
But most airlines have that policy too... but they also overbook.
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Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
No news release, but even the most popular schedules are not overbooked during Christmas high season. I've seen Greyhound buses topped out at 50 passengers, not one person left off the bus. Afternoon Friday skeds on San Francisco-Reno used to be overbooked all the time, now nothing's happening. And the booking system is now showing "sold out" or "x tickets remaining" for the more popular skeds. Asked a few drivers and terminal employees, they say the new system killed overbooking.
Besides, you find any recent complaints of Greyhound overbooking? Overbooking used to be half the complaints, now no such complaints at all. I read through a page of Greyhound's latest complaints. No mention of overbooking, only "lost luggage" and "missed connections". Again, people lose luggage when they forget to transfer "checked baggage", and on every mode of transport, there will be missed connections. Greyhound ticket jackets have a note saying "passengers are responsible for transferring luggage", but some people just don't see it.
I'm not making excuses for Greyhound, it's just that some people don't pay attention, and end up taking a whole page of complaints for nothing.
Besides, you find any recent complaints of Greyhound overbooking? Overbooking used to be half the complaints, now no such complaints at all. I read through a page of Greyhound's latest complaints. No mention of overbooking, only "lost luggage" and "missed connections". Again, people lose luggage when they forget to transfer "checked baggage", and on every mode of transport, there will be missed connections. Greyhound ticket jackets have a note saying "passengers are responsible for transferring luggage", but some people just don't see it.
I'm not making excuses for Greyhound, it's just that some people don't pay attention, and end up taking a whole page of complaints for nothing.
R
Richmond
Guest
Would that include Winchester, VA, which has no Greyhound or any other kind of intercity transit now?
