Expanding the Amtrak Route Map

[neroden]

Our Cardinal haters best think again the August ridership of Cardinal multiplied by 7/3 would exceed Capitol, Crescent, CNO.

The Capitol Limited is actually the "sick man of the East", the worst-peforming train east of the Mississippi financially speaking. The Cardinal is more financially successful than the Capitol Limited now and would be much more successful if daily.

The Capitol Limited - Pennsylvanian through cars need to happen sooner, not later; the DC-Pittsburgh leg is weak compared to Philadelphia-Chicago demand. The CL should probably switch entirely to single-level cars and be reborn as the Broadway Limited, with a lower-capacity branch extending from Pittsburgh to DC like the Albany-Boston branch of the LSL.

 

[jis]

Because the Cap is a weaker train one tends to get the lowest fares on it. But it is a favorite for Amtrak staff for their commute from HQ to Chicago apparently.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Our Cardinal haters best think again the August ridership of Cardinal multiplied by 7/3 would exceed Capitol, Crescent, CNO.

...

The CL should probably switch entirely to single-level cars and be reborn as the Broadway Limited, with a lower-capacity branch extending from Pittsburgh to DC like the Albany-Boston branch of the LSL.

If we want to switch the Capitol Ltd to single-level cars, and send that Superliner equipment out West, somebody needs to start working with CAF. Won't we need more Viewliner diners and more Viewliner sleepers to make that switch? (And of course, we'll need lots more single-level coaches and lounges, too, of course.)

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Our Cardinal haters best think again the August ridership of Cardinal multiplied by 7/3 would exceed Capitol, Crescent, CNO.

...

The CL should probably switch entirely to single-level cars and be reborn as the Broadway Limited, with a lower-capacity branch extending from Pittsburgh to DC like the Albany-Boston branch of the LSL.

If we want to switch the Capitol Ltd to single-level cars, and send that Superliner equipment out West, somebody needs to start working with CAF. Won't we need more Viewliner diners and more Viewliner sleepers to make that switch? (And of course, we'll need lots more single-level coaches and lounges, too, of course.)

I know how we can get some spare Viewliner diners and sleepers!

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Our Cardinal haters best think again the August ridership of Cardinal multiplied by 7/3 would exceed Capitol, Crescent, CNO.

...

The CL should probably switch entirely to single-level cars and be reborn as the Broadway Limited, with a lower-capacity branch extending from Pittsburgh to DC like the Albany-Boston branch of the LSL.

If we want to switch the Capitol Ltd to single-level cars, and send that Superliner equipment out West, somebody needs to start working with CAF. Won't we need more Viewliner diners and more Viewliner sleepers to make that switch? (And of course, we'll need lots more single-level coaches and lounges, too, of course.)

I know how we can get some spare Viewliner diners and sleepers!

Why are you arguing against ordering more equipment for Amtrak?

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Our Cardinal haters best think again the August ridership of Cardinal multiplied by 7/3 would exceed Capitol, Crescent, CNO.

...

The CL should probably switch entirely to single-level cars and be reborn as the Broadway Limited, with a lower-capacity branch extending from Pittsburgh to DC like the Albany-Boston branch of the LSL.

If we want to switch the Capitol Ltd to single-level cars, and send that Superliner equipment out West, somebody needs to start working with CAF. Won't we need more Viewliner diners and more Viewliner sleepers to make that switch? (And of course, we'll need lots more single-level coaches and lounges, too, of course.)

I know how we can get some spare Viewliner diners and sleepers!

Why are you arguing against ordering more equipment for Amtrak?

I'm not.

I'm saying if we want something and we don't have the equipment to get it there are two ways to get the equipment...

A) Beg for the money like we've had the last 46 years and we know what the track record has been doing so. If you can get the equipment to get the through cars running, more power to you.

B) Get the equipment by, well you know what I'm going to say by now.

One costs us X amount of money and X amount of equipment, one uses the money and equipment we're spending now and how much are we really losing? The 5 people from Thurmond, WV?

 

[Bob Dylan]

Oh no, the Cardinal Killer strikes again!

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Oh no, the Cardinal Killer strikes again!

A Halloween costume? Dressing as a cannibal?

 

[capltd29]

Our Cardinal haters best think again the August ridership of Cardinal multiplied by 7/3 would exceed Capitol, Crescent, CNO.

...

The CL should probably switch entirely to single-level cars and be reborn as the Broadway Limited, with a lower-capacity branch extending from Pittsburgh to DC like the Albany-Boston branch of the LSL.

If we want to switch the Capitol Ltd to single-level cars, and send that Superliner equipment out West, somebody needs to start working with CAF. Won't we need more Viewliner diners and more Viewliner sleepers to make that switch? (And of course, we'll need lots more single-level coaches and lounges, too, of course.)

I know how we can get some spare Viewliner diners and sleepers!

Why are you arguing against ordering more equipment for Amtrak?

I'm not.

I'm saying if we want something and we don't have the equipment to get it there are two ways to get the equipment...

A) Beg for the money like we've had the last 46 years and we know what the track record has been doing so. If you can get the equipment to get the through cars running, more power to you.

B) Get the equipment by, well you know what I'm going to say by now.

One costs us X amount of money and X amount of equipment, one uses the money and equipment we're spending now and how much are we really losing? The 5 people from Thurmond, WV?

Its a little harder for the "5 people" in Thurmond, WV to fly to Chicago. You can get a lot of direct flights from Philadelphia to Chicago. I've done it several times.

 

[jis]

And you know what the rest of us are going to say too I suppose. And so the world goes around one more time and a thread gets fruitlessly longer in AU [emoji16]

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[Thirdrail7]

One costs us X amount of money and X amount of equipment, one uses the money and equipment we're spending now and how much are we really losing? The 5 people from Thurmond, WV?

We'd sacrifice a stop that had 100 times more riders than population a few years ago. I can't think of any other stop that can make that claim. If anyone deserves a stop, its them!

 

[Anthony V]

Improvements to the Cardinal would include making the train daily to boost ridership, for starters. In addition, the Hoosier State would be moved to a schedule independent of the Cardinal and go to twice daily service between CHI-IND, and extend both of those round trips in two different directions to two different cities. One of the HS round trips would be extended south to Louisville and Nashville as a day train, and the other would extend to Cincinnati, giving that city daylight service.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Improvements to the Cardinal would include making the train daily to boost ridership, for starters.

YES

In addition, the Hoosier State would be moved to a schedule independent of the Cardinal and go to twice daily service between CHI-IND,

YES

and extend both of those round trips in two different directions to two different cities. One of the Hoosier State round trips would be extended south to Louisville and Nashville as a day train,

YES

and the other would extend to Cincinnati, giving that city daylight service.

YES

AND split the Cardinal at Indy to send a section to St Louis. (This possibility was raised in the PRIIA study of the Cardinal back in 2009 or so. It was not in the purview of that report, but was deemed worth further study.)

AND invest in upgrades to the Indy-CHI route. To start, Indiana paid for a study that proposed some $225 million to take 29 minutes out of the run time from Indianapolis to the Illinois state line.

http://www.in.gov/indot/files/Amtrak_CostBenefitAnalysis_2013.pdf

The faster run would allow the Cardinal an earlier arrival in CHI (now 10:00 a.m.) and an earlier return to Indy (now midnight). The faster time on this segment would mean faster trips to Louisville and Cincy as well. Of course, it would probably be possible to cut at least another half an hour from the Cincy-Indy segment or more. Again that would allow an earlier arrival in CHI for the Cardinal (or a later morning departure from Indy).

Up until now, Amtrak's chronic shortage of equipment has prevented even much speculation about adding frequencies Indy-CHI or extending the Hoosier State corridor to Cincinnati/Louisville. But within 3 or 4 years Siemens will be delivering new equipment for the Midwest corridors. Adding another dozen, or two dozen, cars to that order should be simply a matter of money.

Of course, there's no money now, but things can change quickly, and not always for the worse. A political upheaval or/or another deep recession could lead to Stimulus-type funding to pay for the needed infrastructure upgrades.

 

[dlagrua]

This thread started out by talking about extending the Amtrak route map and it has gone off course. My thoughts on the comments for Amtrak service to the upper peninsula of Michigan, is that it will never happen. The only chance ( and slight at that) would be for a state operated train. .

 

[jebr]

This thread started out by talking about extending the Amtrak route map and it has gone off course. My thoughts on the comments for Amtrak service to the upper peninsula of Michigan, is that it will never happen. The only chance ( and slight at that) would be for a state operated train. .

Why couldn't Amtrak operate a Michigan upper peninsula train? It'd probably have to be state-funded, sure, but Amtrak could still be the one hired to operate the train. Michigan does that with their Michigan Service trains already.

 

[StanJazz]

A Michigan upper peninsular train would have to go through Wisconsin. Looking at Google maps there is no rail line from lower to upper Michigan. There is no chance Wisconsin under with the current government would pay their share.

 

[Anthony V]

This thread started out by talking about extending the Amtrak route map and it has gone off course. My thoughts on the comments for Amtrak service to the upper peninsula of Michigan, is that it will never happen. The only chance ( and slight at that) would be for a state operated train. .

The U.P. of Michigan doesn't have enough population to support a passenger train there. The closest population center to that region that MAY be able to support a passenger train is Green Bay.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

This thread started out by talking about extending the Amtrak route map and it has gone off course. My thoughts on the comments for Amtrak service to the upper peninsula of Michigan, is that it will never happen. The only chance ( and slight at that) would be for a state operated train. .

The U.P. of Michigan doesn't have enough population to support a passenger train there. The closest population center to that region that MAY be able to support a passenger train is Green Bay.

I would be very surprised if Green Bay couldn't support a passenger train if funding was provided. The density there is greater than on the Carl Sandburg/Illinois Zephyr line, which has 2 daily frequencies over the whole route and 4 as far west as Galesburg.
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[Anthony V]

Improvements to the Cardinal would include making the train daily to boost ridership, for starters.

YES

In addition, the Hoosier State would be moved to a schedule independent of the Cardinal and go to twice daily service between CHI-IND,

YES

and extend both of those round trips in two different directions to two different cities. One of the Hoosier State round trips would be extended south to Louisville and Nashville as a day train,

YES

and the other would extend to Cincinnati, giving that city daylight service.

YES

AND split the Cardinal at Indy to send a section to St Louis. (This possibility was raised in the PRIIA study of the Cardinal back in 2009 or so. It was not in the purview of that report, but was deemed worth further study.)

AND invest in upgrades to the Indy-CHI route. To start, Indiana paid for a study that proposed some $225 million to take 29 minutes out of the run time from Indianapolis to the Illinois state line.

http://www.in.gov/indot/files/Amtrak_CostBenefitAnalysis_2013.pdf

The faster run would allow the Cardinal an earlier arrival in CHI (now 10:00 a.m.) and an earlier return to Indy (now midnight). The faster time on this segment would mean faster trips to Louisville and Cincy as well. Of course, it would probably be possible to cut at least another half an hour from the Cincy-Indy segment or more. Again that would allow an earlier arrival in CHI for the Cardinal (or a later morning departure from Indy).

Up until now, Amtrak's chronic shortage of equipment has prevented even much speculation about adding frequencies Indy-CHI or extending the Hoosier State corridor to Cincinnati/Louisville. But within 3 or 4 years Siemens will be delivering new equipment for the Midwest corridors. Adding another dozen, or two dozen, cars to that order should be simply a matter of money.

Of course, there's no money now, but things can change quickly, and not always for the worse. A political upheaval or/or another deep recession could lead to Stimulus-type funding to pay for the needed infrastructure upgrades.

You are spot on with your thinking. I forgot to mention the St. Louis section of the Cardinal that was proposed in the 2010 PIP. That would bring service back to Terre Haute, IN. I think that this section should be extended to Kansas City to serve the endpoints last served by the National Limited in 1979. The train would also provide a third frequency along the Missouri River Runner route, and would connect with the CONO at Effingham, TE at STL, and SWC at KCY.

The extensions of the proposed two frequencies of the Hoosier State would be done once the route between Dyer and Chicago is changed and running time for that segment is shortened considerably. That way, both trains can have an easier time being competitive with driving, especially the day train to Nashville.

 

[Anthony V]

This thread started out by talking about extending the Amtrak route map and it has gone off course. My thoughts on the comments for Amtrak service to the upper peninsula of Michigan, is that it will never happen. The only chance ( and slight at that) would be for a state operated train. .

The U.P. of Michigan doesn't have enough population to support a passenger train there. The closest population center to that region that MAY be able to support a passenger train is Green Bay.

I would be very surprised if Green Bay couldn't support a passenger train if funding was provided. The density there is greater than on the Carl Sandburg/Illinois Zephyr line, which has 2 daily frequencies over the whole route and 4 as far west as Galesburg.
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Such a train would be very popular during Bears-Packers games as fans can ride the train to the stadium where the game is being played.

 

[JRR]

The Chicago & Northwestern used to run from Chicago up through Wisconsin including Oshkosh, Milwaukee, Greenbay, Menominee, Marinette, up in the UP to Powers and both.

I used to ride it from Powers to Chicago, and then on the “James Whitcomb Riley” to Cincinnati.

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[DSS&A]

Hi,

An expanded Hiawatha service from Milwaukee to Green Bay should have been done a long time ago. One thing that stopped it was that Wisconsin law PREVENTED the state to subsidize passenger trains until the law was changed. I recall this happened when Gov. Thompson was in office.

The expanded Hiawatha Service could have a combination of through service to Chicago and also one train consist operating just between Milwaukee and Chicago for greater frequencies on the south end. For example, the first train out of Milwaukee will still be the same, but the early morning train out of Green Bay would become the second southbound train out of Milwaukee for Chicago. In addition to high populations, there are also a few universities on the route, including UW Stevens Point if a Thruway connection is operated.

JRR, how did you like riding the Penninsula 400 train? I was able to ride those passenger cars when the were in Hiawatha service in 1986 and they were still comfortable cars to ride in. The cafe-coach was on the train that I rode. I was also able to ride in two cars after they left Amtrak service on the old DSS&A in 1994 on a passenger train charter out of Marquette.

 

[JRR]

The train was ok. Double decker and a good view from upstairs. I remember speeding along and watching the ice boats race in Lake Winnebago, often faster than the train!

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[west point]

"IF" the Siemens cars can replace all the Amfleets, Horizons, & Superliners presently in state service then ----- The freed up cars can probably expand the LD Superliner trains and the single level car trains. That may allow for one each of SLs and AM-1s to start a new train. Until more cars are built that will be the limit of expansion. Pick your one potion of poison. Any expansion will require at least 3 train sets each + 12 -16 additional P-42 displaced by the new Chargers.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

One day it is going to occur to you people that cars have a limited service life. The Amfleets and Superliner I cars are over 30 years old! And the Horizon fleet is awful in cold weather and inadequate for NEC service.

By the time even Siemens cars have funding secured (presumably after our current President and GOP dominated legislature are out, or at least done making more noise than progress) , And the RFI, RFP, and contract award are done, and the construction starts and cars are delivered, both the Superliners and Amfleets, intended for a 30 year or so life, will be well past their 40th birthday. The only thing they will be supplementing is the stainless steel scrap Business.