Doors didn't open

[Devil's Advocate]

Alan, I genuinely believe Amtrak was in the wrong in this case and I'm not afraid to say so despite your endless bullying. I have no idea what you think because you keep claiming it's anything BUT what you actually wrote. Say what you will about my positions and my posts but at least they're clear on where I stand.

 

[NW cannonball]

Yeah, I'm still putting 100% on the conductor for this one. The young man was on the platform, bag in hand, so there's absolutely no excuse. I've hung around at KAL watching the Wolverine before, and 99% of the time, the conductor asks if I'm joining them before shutting the door. The only time I haven't been asked is when I hang back and make it really obvious I'm not joining them (i.e. stand by the station and wave at the train).

Also, until this thread, I would have thought green lights by the doors meant they were opening too.

The green lights by the doors, on the Builder at least, the only train I've observed closely

- the green lights mean - train brakes released -and- door not open. When a door is open the light turns yellow. The light by the door also goes yellow when the trainline air brakes are applied. The brakes on the engine are independent and don't affect the lights on the car sides by the doors. Based on about 15 years of observing Superliners in Saint Paul.

So - those green or yellow lights by the doors have nothing to do with whether a door will or will not open. If all those lights are all green, means all the doors are latched and the train brakes are off. The "all aboard" should have already happened, the doors are latched shut, two toots and away the train goes. Counterintuitive - yes. Those green lights aren't welcoming, they mean "ready to highball"

If you are on the platform, and see one yellow light and an open door in a "sea of green" - hightail it for the yellow light (forget the Bardo Thodol) and wave your arms and shout. On the Builder anyway, or probably any Superliner consist.

 

[NW cannonball]

Think he turned into the 'Cookie Monster' up there

http://www.flickr.com/photos/107915364@N04/10718928173/in/photostream/

Quick story behind all this....He's due to join the Air Force soon, oldest brother is a Marine on the west coast so he sees him often, next brother is in the Air Force in Maryland, Wanted to spend some time with his brother on the east coast...you know how families get separated. We were talking about my boyhood days hopping freights in Illinois and he asked about riding a train back from Maryland. I told him if he put up the money for the round trip flight, I'd pay the difference and he could ride the train across country. Don't know if an opportunity like that would ever be available again...service, jobs, life, etc. He chose the route, wanted to see the north, having grown up down here in the desert! Well he got to see it alright!

The photos you posted -- wow.

Couldn't get the pics to post...but maybe you can copy and past....?

http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

If it works...that's the sleeping arrangements

http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

And that's why he wanted to travel in that area!

Preview shows they posted as links....hope so!

Bless him for visiting the "frozen north" - and being well-prepared and competent.

My daughter in the Navy can't wait to get back on leave to visit Minnesota in January. "It's always 100 degrees in this engine room :unsure: "

Sometimes a person just needs to cool down.

Edit - (Oh, and "nudge nudge - wink wink - say nomore"- - that thought just might apply - the cool down thought -- to some subthread here -- just sayin)

 

[AlanB]

Alan, I genuinely believe Amtrak was in the wrong in this case and I'm not afraid to say so despite your endless bullying. I have no idea what you think because you keep claiming it's anything BUT what you actually wrote. Say what you will about my positions and my posts but at least they're clear on where I stand.

Yeah, your thoughts are clear to you. The problem remains that you are thinking for everyone else and not reading what they actually wrote. John wrote the following quote from his son:

He was there, made eye contact with the conductor when he looked out, saw 'green lights come on like doors were gonna open' and then it pulled away.

Yet according to you, his son wasn't thinking that those lights had anything to do with the doors. And I wasn't the only one who mentioned that the light had nothing to do with the doors; even though you singled me out.

I know that many here agree with me, you're not advocating for anyone; sadly most of the time you just seem intent on causing & creating disruption and hassling people.

 

[SarahZ]

Thanks, NW. I didn't know all that about the lights. I've never really paid attention to them before.

 

[AlanB]

Ps. I too believe that Amtrak's conductor screwed up here and I have never said otherwise. But unlike you, I've been trying to help and provide suggestions to ensure that even if the next conductor were to make some of the same mistakes, that maybe John's son could prevent Amtrak from making the same mistake as unlikely as that scenario was. You however had to twist that to what you believe, that I was defending Amtrak; not what I said.

Being in a position to prevent Amtrak from making a mistake doesn't mean that Amtrak didn't make a mistake. But it does lessen the chance that John's son could have spent a second night camped out under that bench.

 

[PRR 60]

Ps. I too believe that Amtrak's conductor screwed up here and I have never said otherwise. But unlike you, I've been trying to help and provide suggestions to ensure that even if the next conductor were to make some of the same mistakes, that maybe John's son could prevent Amtrak from making the same mistake as unlikely as that scenario was. You however had to twist that to what you believe, that I was defending Amtrak; not what I said.

Being in a position to prevent Amtrak from making a mistake doesn't mean that Amtrak didn't make a mistake. But it does lessen the chance that John's son could have spent a second night camped out under that bench.

However, when you say there were things the passenger could have done to prevent the problem, you are placing some of the blame on the passenger. I disagree. Though it was originally stated that the passenger made eye contact with the conductor, it was later stated that:

"Conductor, Engineer, I have no idea who it was, my kid is 18, never been on a train prior to this trip from Washington DC, to Portland, to Yuma. Guess it could have been a passenger he saw stick his head out and he made eye contact with...??"

So, it is very possible that the person he made eye contact with was not the conductor at all and hand waving or jumping up would have made no difference.

The bottom line is the train made a station stop and somehow did not board a passenger waiting at that station standing under a light leaving him to spend a night sleeping under a bench. The color of the lights on the side of the train, or whether there even are lights makes no difference. There is no excuse for him not being on that train. It was a 100% Amtrak foul up and the passenger shares no blame. There are no excuses or mitigating circumstances that take any of the blame off Amtrak.

 

[greatcats]

Hello Jim Hudson - Please permit me to clarify Williams Junction, Arizona, which I have used several times. It is an unusual arrangement, but works quite well. It is marked as railroad property and passengers are not supposed to enter the area in their own vehicles, although I have seen last time a private vehicle meet passengers getting off the train. The only vehicle present should be the van ( or minibus, or large bus, depending on the number of passengers ) that operates from the Grand Canyon Railway Hotel in downtown Williams. It is about a three mile drive, which includes a spooky run through dark, unmarked forest roads. There is a short platform and the van driver turns on the platform lights and the van or bus serves as a waiting room in the minutes prior to the train arrival. There is little chance of a passenger being left behind, as the driver is also looking out for them. In the unlikely event that the van broke down or somehow became stuck enroute to the Junction, then I would expect the conductor would be on the radio inquiring what to do, and would not leave passengers getting off out in the middle of the woods to their own devices..

Passengers using this stop are not necessarily going to the Grand Canyon. I used it once this year, as I preferred to park my car at the hotel. Gazing at the Milky Way at 3:45 am at Williams Junction, AZ has to be one of the more exciting experiences in travel. :excl: I also learned that if there is a large crowd, the big bus they have for that purpose is an old MCI stick shift that I used to drive at Grand Canyon. Also, I will add that the Grand Canyon Railway Hotel lobby makes a nice place to wait in the middle of the night and the hotel staff has a manifest of expected passengers.

 

[CHamilton]

Boarding at Essex, MT is arranged almost identically to how greatcats describes Williams Jct. The Izaak Walton Inn picks up and delivers passengers in a van, although the platform is only a few hundred feet from the hotel.

When I arrived in Essex last May, the inn was not expecting me, so I walked the short distance. They were very surprised and apologetic. But it was easy, because the walk is pretty flat and there's no way to get lost. I had been there before, so I knew where I was going, and a couple staying at the inn had come down to watch the train go by, so we walked back together. Had the weather been bad, I'm sure that I could have called the inn, now that Essex finally has cell service.

I should also mention that when I caught the train at Williams a few years ago, it was running several hours late, so the hotel gave me a room at no charge and woke me up in time to catch the van in the middle of the night. I was very appreciative, although they gave me a smoking room, and the atmosphere made it almost impossible to sleep.

 

[Guest]

So, it is very possible that the person he made eye contact with was not the conductor at all and hand waving or jumping up would have made no difference.

As we go down some of these tangents, IMHO, it makes Amtrak only more at fault.

If it wasn't the conductor, but instead an assistant conductor, the engineer, the LSA, or a SCA, any and all off them had a clear duty, IMHO, to notify the actual conductor that there is a passenger on the platform waiting to board. If they didn't, this doesn't lessen the fault of the conductor one bit, but it does add that Amtrak employee to the list for major disciplinarian actions.

The bottom line should be, no matter how late a train is running, the conductor should never, ever, attempt to make up time by sliding thru a station and thus skipping a ticketed passenger.

 

[Bob Dylan]

:hi: Thanks for the Info on Williams Junction Guys! I've only been through there on the SWC and I always thought it was sort of Spooky in the Dark, but Now I Understand how it Works! Essex I was more familiar with, sounds like the Izaak Walton Inn Folks really have it Together for their Guests!

 

[Ispolkom]

However, when you say there were things the passenger could have done to prevent the problem, you are placing some of the blame on the passenger.

I guess it's a matter of perspective, but I can't agree with this. Obviously the conductor screwed up not picking up the OP's son. Obviously it's Amtrak's fault. And obviously the OP's son should get a big voucher for future travel.

Nevertheless, we live in a world where Amtrak occasionally screws up this way. Given that fact, what's wrong with offering a counsel of prudence as to what passengers in similar situations should do to make sure that they are not left out in the cold?

 

[jis]

However, when you say there were things the passenger could have done to prevent the problem, you are placing some of the blame on the passenger.

IMHO that is a mighty extreme interpretation. But hey this is a free country, and everyone is allowed to have an opinion, if not two I tend to agree more with Ispolkom's position. Giving a piece of advice for future consideration to reduce the chance of an event is hardly placing blame on anyone for anything.

 

[June the Coach Rider]

In my opinion, part of the problem is that there are no signs at stations for where particular classes of passengers should stand. Sleepers are usually up front and the coach cars are far away from the actual station. When people stand at the station, thinking that they will open a door close to them, that causes the issue. Especially for the unstaffed stations, there should be signs for where sleeper and coach passengers should stand to board.

 

[oregon pioneer]

I frequently board at an unstaffed station (CMO), and Amtrak appears to have well-defined procedures for identifying passengers and getting them on the train in a timely fashion at these short stops. When my train arrives, there is always at least one window open with an attendant or conductor hanging out the window as the train pulls in. The passenger's name is called, or "coach this car" or "sleeper pax up front" or some such is called out. These procedures clearly were not followed in this case.

That said, there are things a passenger can do to make the attendants' job easier, such as raising a hand and hoisting the luggage in obvious preparation to boarding (notice I said "can do," not "obligated").

I have been on a train where the brakes were applied shortly beyond the station, before the train was up to speed, and we reversed direction to back into the station. The word went out ( I can't remember if it was announced or not) that a passenger had been left. We picked them up, and were on our way. So I know this can happen! But it has to happen within a few seconds after the mistake is realized, or not at all.

Ultimately, it is the conductor's responsibility to make sure that the passenger who is supposed to board is either on the train, or not present on the platform at all, before giving the all-clear to proceed.

 

[tonys96]

If the book says a conductor is supposed to put his feet on the platform at every stop, and it seems in this case that did not happen, no amount of arm waving or hollering would have helped the OP's son.

Hollering and waving arms are good things to do if there is someone outside the train whose attention you could get.

 

[Trainmans daughter]

Per the Service Standards Manual:

Conductor – En Route Responsibilities

The Conductor must:

a) Platform – Be on the platform at all station stops.

b) Employee Positions – Ensure that there are

employees protecting vestibules and positioned to assist boarding and detraining passengers.

 

[leemell]

Tickets, voucher, I don't know, he did like a 15 day pass allowing 8 segments of travel. He has something printed that shows the 'reservations' and customer relations was concerned that he might have issues if he didn't pick up new 'tickets' with updated times and dates. He just texted a couple minutes ago...office was closed, guess the office person is the baggage handler and was unloading, go figure! Office re-opened he got his new 'tickets', back on the train headed to Portland! All is well!!

I'm so glad it worked out for you, I thought about your son's situation off/on yesterday. I wish him the best of luck with his military future. Peace.

Edit to add: if he can handle sleeping under a table in freezing weather, then boot camp should be a cinch, perhaps even some kind of special ops down the road. Resourcefulness and ingenuity are huge when it comes to survival situations.

That would be AF PJ's, para-jumpers.

 

[leemell]

Think he turned into the 'Cookie Monster' up there

http://www.flickr.com/photos/107915364@N04/10718928173/in/photostream/

Quick story behind all this....He's due to join the Air Force soon, oldest brother is a Marine on the west coast so he sees him often, next brother is in the Air Force in Maryland, Wanted to spend some time with his brother on the east coast...you know how families get separated. We were talking about my boyhood days hopping freights in Illinois and he asked about riding a train back from Maryland. I told him if he put up the money for the round trip flight, I'd pay the difference and he could ride the train across country. Don't know if an opportunity like that would ever be available again...service, jobs, life, etc. He chose the route, wanted to see the north, having grown up down here in the desert! Well he got to see it alright!

As an AF Vet from many years back, I can say he looks like a really good candidate. Congratulations.

 

[leemell]

In my opinion, part of the problem is that there are no signs at stations for where particular classes of passengers should stand. Sleepers are usually up front and the coach cars are far away from the actual station. When people stand at the station, thinking that they will open a door close to them, that causes the issue. Especially for the unstaffed stations, there should be signs for where sleeper and coach passengers should stand to board.

Not always possible. Trains can be going in both directions which means a double set of signs. Sometimes they spot the trains differently to accommodate PV or other extra cars.

 

[Blackwolf]

In my opinion, part of the problem is that there are no signs at stations for where particular classes of passengers should stand. Sleepers are usually up front and the coach cars are far away from the actual station. When people stand at the station, thinking that they will open a door close to them, that causes the issue. Especially for the unstaffed stations, there should be signs for where sleeper and coach passengers should stand to board.

Not always possible. Trains can be going in both directions which means a double set of signs. Sometimes they spot the trains differently to accommodate PV or other extra cars.

Yes and no. There are stations using signage with regard to both Sleeper and Coach (Sacramento is one of them) and the two "classes" are segregated on the platform and/or given two separate ramps from the tunnel up to the platform.

That said, with unstaffed stops where property issues or weather don't allow platform occupation until a train is actually standing at the station are not an issue, the answer is simple. Pick a spot smack in the middle of the platform, then have a good quality light on a pole at this location. On the pole, mount signage that is very clear and large pointing to the location below the light that says "ALL TICKETED PASSENGERS MUST WAIT HERE FOR TRAIN." Now train OBS have a central location to look for boarding passengers, as anyone standing at that location can justifiably be assumed to be one. No more fuss, and no more reasons for Amtrak to have people literally left holding their bag as they watch the red marker lights fade into the distance on a missed train.

It would cost almost nothing to implement, especially in light of lost revenue and/or compensation to passengers these troubles effect.

 

[benjibear]

To help with this problem, maybe Amtrak should install a simple sound system at unstaffed stations that flash a light and make a pre-recorded announcement that the train is approaching the station and direct all passengers to the platform. Repeat message for about 5 minutes before the train comes. When the train arrives, have a button that the conductor must get off the train, and with a key or code, the sound system announces the train has arrived and all aboard. At that time he should look up and down the platform to make sure everyone that wants on is on and then they could pull away.

I could see in cold areas someone waiting around a corner or behind something to protect them from the wind. This would alert them to get to the platform the train is about to arrive. If Amtrak is running even just 10 minutes late, nobody wants to stand on a platform in the cold (or heat) with no site of the train. You don't know if it is just a few minutes late, and hour late,, or hours late. With my proposal, the people would know when to expect the train.

 

[oregon pioneer]

Ha, ha, once when I was in Switzerland (must have been the early 1980s), I wanted to take the little train up the valley from my hotel to go hiking. The train just went on by twice before I finally found the button that said "Zug Hält" (train stop). When I pushed the button, it made lots of lights flash as the train approached. Some of the lights were far enough down the line to alert the engineer to apply the brakes. The train stopped. I got to go hiking. Luckily, there was a train every half-hour, so I didn't waste the whole day!

If we are going to make a "wish list" for ways to alert conductors and pax that they are looking for each other, this obviously works (as long as there is adequate signage to let passengers know the button exists, ha, ha!). But I think the simplest solution is to make sure conductors follow the procedures that are already in place, and work if followed properly.

 

[oldtimer]

Based on my 35+ years of experience with Amtrak I can tell you that the lights on the side on a Superliner have nothing to do with the doors being open or closed. The lights are activated be a pressure switch on the car's brake cylinder pressure line.

 

[chakk]

Yeah, I'm still putting 100% on the conductor for this one. The young man was on the platform, bag in hand, so there's absolutely no excuse. I've hung around at KAL watching the Wolverine before, and 99% of the time, the conductor asks if I'm joining them before shutting the door. The only time I haven't been asked is when I hang back and make it really obvious I'm not joining them (i.e. stand by the station and wave at the train).

Also, until this thread, I would have thought green lights by the doors meant they were opening too.

Those green lights on superliners are often visible at night out my roomette window as my CZ travels around curves. So I certainly hope that doesn't mean all of the doors to those cars are open.