DE & MD studying Delmarva train options

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CHamilton

CHamilton

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Delmarva Intercity Rail Study - The Delaware Transit Corporation, in partnership with the Maryland Department of Transportation, has conducted a study of passenger rail service to downstate Delaware and Eastern Shore Maryland. The Delmarva Rail Study examined the potential for Amtrak service from points on the Northeast Corridor between Washington, D.C. and New York City to destinations in the resort area. Within Delaware this would be mainly on existing Norfolk Southern Railway track and possibly the Maryland and Delaware Railroad extending to Berlin, Maryland. At the request of Maryland DOT, the potential and cost of reestablishing rail service to Ocean City was also examined. For more information on the study and to send a public comment on the study, please visit the Public Hearings page on the HOME page of DartFirststate.com [links below]. Public comments will be accepted until April 19.
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DART's Public Hearing Workshop Process

Public Comments will accepted until April 19th Public Hearing Comment Form

Delmarva Intercity Rail Feasibility Study document (PDF)
 
The WOC extension seems like a worthwhile second-stage project if the numbers were to merit it, but that's really a short enough connection to run a Thruway on and pursue if the Thruway starts getting packed. Of course, here's a question: What would the numbers look like if the train went to Salisbury instead of Berlin?
 
You know, this has me thinking...what are the track conditions on the Delmarva Peninsula? Norfolk-Wilmington is about 60 miles shorter via US-13 than by I-95, and it would be even shorter by rail; to match the 7:00 direct service speed NFK-WIL (it's actually 7:01), you'd only need to average around 35 MPH between the bus and the train. That should be doable with the above-studied project (Class 4 track is, IIRC, 70 MPH for passenger trains) plus Class 3 running south of Berlin.

The downside is the bus aspect (you'd need a NFK-Cape Charles bus) plus the fact that you'd need to ditch Berlin for Salisbury, but this would seem to have the potential to seriously outpace any trains heading west from Norfolk bound for the Northeast. You could handle any engine switches at PHL (there's plenty of precedent for Amtrak doing this as I understand it).
 
Hmm...what would it cost to install signals on 70 miles of track? From what you're saying and a check on Google Maps, it's almost as straight as the FEC (and I believe lightly-used), though naturally I can't speak to the condition of that single track.

(No, this really is a serious question, especially since a 50 MPH average would cut NFK travel time to WIL from 7:01 via RVR/WAS to 4:50 via Salisbury...and with it, put in around a two-hour drop to travel times to NYP)
 
RyanS said:
Pretty much right next to 13 all the way up (I've spent far too many hours driving alongside it). Basically single track, no signals all the way up (at least the MD and VA portion).
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I've seen this line. I always thought it had the potential for high speed action since the alignment ss straight for miles and miles. With the right upgrades, 90mph-110mph would be a walk in the park. However, it dumps on the wrong side of the Chesapeake.
 
The solution to the line ending in Cape Charles is simple: Ferry service to Havana, with all the cigars you can smoke. Now that should bring 'em flocking.
 
Thirdrail7 said:
RyanS said:
Pretty much right next to 13 all the way up (I've spent far too many hours driving alongside it). Basically single track, no signals all the way up (at least the MD and VA portion).
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I've seen this line. I always thought it had the potential for high speed action since the alignment ss straight for miles and miles. With the right upgrades, 90mph-110mph would be a walk in the park. However, it dumps on the wrong side of the Chesapeake.
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Ignoring the sarcasm from the guest, if you could somehow do this and run something like a set of DMUs along the line, you ought to be able to beat the stuffing out of NPN/NFK-PHL/NYP times on the other route. Even on the same average speed (and allowing for an engine swap in PHL or WIL), you'd beat the times to anywhere north of Wilimington by about an hour or more because you don't go 50-60 miles west only to come back east. Knocking 100-ish miles off the distance of a route is definitely one way to shave travel time. Of course, in doing so you drop a few destinations that are major city pairs for Virginia (WAS, BAL, etc.).

The main issue, operationally, would be selling people on a B&O/Iowa Pacific-style bus service from NFK up to Cape Charles.
 
Could possibly work. Seems that the ancient ROW is there. What the ridership would be -- no clue.

The East side of the Chesapeake -- Delmarva - As the National Capital inexorably expands -- could happen.

The Delmarva could easily turn from chicken farms and retreats to suburbs.

Don't know if that would be good or bad.
 
Anderson said:
The main issue, operationally, would be selling people on a B&O/Iowa Pacific-style bus service from NFK up to Cape Charles.
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A complication, yes. But people in that area are already used to the concept of taking a bus to connect to an Amtrak train.
 
Unfortunately, like so many other threads on rail passenger websites this has no, zero, nada chance of ever happening. The costs would end up being totally out of line with the ridership potential that it would never get off the ground (and apparently has not). At this stage the only sensible increases in passenger services (non-commuter) are going to be by increasing frequency on existing routes, in particular shorter routes that be end to end trips of eight hours or less.

As for pseudo-high speed service (90-110) there are so many grade crossings on this line its just impractical and would be crazy expensive.
 
Guest said:
Unfortunately, like so many other threads on rail passenger websites this has no, zero, nada chance of ever happening. The costs would end up being totally out of line with the ridership potential that it would never get off the ground (and apparently has not). At this stage the only sensible increases in passenger services (non-commuter) are going to be by increasing frequency on existing routes, in particular shorter routes that be end to end trips of eight hours or less.

As for pseudo-high speed service (90-110) there are so many grade crossings on this line its just impractical and would be crazy expensive.
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This isn't entirely true (Chicago-Davenport is happening, for example, and there's seriously potential to add service out past Roanoke in VA).
 
When all is said and done, there is a whole lot more said than done.

But speculation and dreaming are so much nicer than reality.
 
I checked the 1948 OAG for the best timetable to see what's possible without going to the extreme of an HSR-like rebuild. The Del-Mar-Va Express departed Cape Charles 1:40 pm and arrived Wilmington 6:30. I don't know the specific mileage on PRR, but assuming it's 200 miles the average speed was 41 mph.

I would guess today's expense to renovate for 79 mph operation is $2 million per mile, and higher if bridges must be replaced. 79 mph top speed on track that is largely straight and has minimal freight interference would probably provide an average speed of 55-60 mph depending on how many station stops are made.
 
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There just is not enough online local traffic potential on the Eastern Shore (Delmarva Peninsula) to justify the cost of restoring a viable passenger service at the current time.

And thru passengers would prefer a "one seat ride" between the endpoints, even if it does take somewhat longer than a bus-train combo. If speed was that much of an issue, they would simply fly....
 
xyzzy said:
I checked the 1948 OAG for the best timetable to see what's possible without going to the extreme of an HSR-like rebuild. The Del-Mar-Va Express departed Cape Charles 1:40 pm and arrived Wilmington 6:30. I don't know the specific mileage on PRR, but assuming it's 200 miles the average speed was 41 mph.

I would guess today's expense to renovate for 79 mph operation is $2 million per mile, and higher if bridges must be replaced. 79 mph top speed on track that is largely straight and has minimal freight interference would probably provide an average speed of 55-60 mph depending on how many station stops are made.
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Good guess! Per this:

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track2/delmarva194310.html

Wilmington was mile 118.1 while Cape Charles was mile 310.4, for 192.3 miles between stations.
 
Ask yourselves, if this was such a great alternative between the Northeast and tidewater, then why did it never catch on. This being particularly true since the DelMarVa route was Pennsylvania RR all the way while to go through Richmond involved 3 different railroad companies, whether going to Newport News or to Norfolk. There never was much in the way of passenger traffic on this route. The Pennsy gave up on it fairly early.

Given all the needs to improve the passenger train flow in many places around the country why even consider spending somewhere between $200 million and $400 million just to get the track brought up to decent condition, much less the money needed to be spent on equipment and stations, and oh yeah, then there is the ferry cost.

Through service on this line only makes sense if what you are smoking is not tobacco.
 
There are two valid counter-explanations, if I may. One is that Hampton Roads was much lighter on population in the 1940s (and, to add to that, you could not get from the Peninsula to Southside with much ease at the time), so the catchment area on the line was awful in terms of geography and population. As a case in point on this front, that train into Norfolk that started in 2012? That was the first regularly-scheduled single-seat service between Norfolk and Washington, DC. Full stop. I think the re-routing of a Regional or two to Newport News to replace the Riley might have been the first direct NPN-WAS service, though I am far less certain on that front. The other is that in the 1940s the ferry ride was a significant impediment (note that the ferry schedules three hours in the timetables of the era while you can make the drive from downtown Norfolk to Cape Charles in under an hour now. Bottom line: In 1940, Hampton Roads was not a major market. Norfolk and Portsmouth were a bit smaller then, but Virginia Beach, Chesapeake, Hampton, etc. were all smaller. [1]

This dovetails with a point that has come up elsewhere: There are a lot of services which flopped between 1945 and 1971 which would likely have survived today because of different population and traffic patterns. Heck, an Amtrak that was formed with similar operating constraints as those used in 1971 would look different today simply because the population out west was much lower.

More importantly, nobody (nobody) was mentioning bringing back the ferry as far as I can tell. Running a bus? Sure, and for the record prior to the addition of direct (if awkwardly-timed for non-military/business traffic) service from Norfolk the bus from NFK/VAB was running about 20k pax/year to Newport News.

[1] I am well aware of the urban consolidation situation which accounted for some of the population swelling in the cities at the time, but for example there was a lot of growth in Virginia Beach in the 1950s (pre-consolidation). In 1940, Virginia Beach was <20k citizens while by 1960 it was just under 85k.
 

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