Carolinian finances, reroutes, extension

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I would think that the very next train that Amtrak should add - if they could somehow add a new (short) route, would be a daily train - WAS to Atlanta. It only requires two train sets, and each set could be two Superliner coaches and one Sightseer Lounge - with food service on the lower level. One coach could be a coach/baggage. So three cars (6 total) are needed - to start this service. Plus two engines.

The train would serve WAS, Culpepper, Charlottesville, Lynchburg, Danville, VA, Greensboro, NC, High Point, Charlotte, Western SC stops, and Atlanta (with a night arrival around 9 PM). The total population is over 10 million people along that route. Plus you have connections to the NEC.
Besides all the issues with a WAS-ATL day train - needs state funding, does not run to NYP, inadequate station in ATL, etc - Why would it use Superliners, which are in short supply? Besides, NC is planning high level platforms for the Raleigh station, I believe some of the other stations in NC on the Piedmont corridor either have or will be getting high level platforms. The Piedmont corridor is part of the eastern network after all.

Two coach cars and one Sightseer lounge? That is not much capacity. If you think people are going to take this daily train, it should have the capacity to handle them and sell enough seats so the train service does not lose huge amounts of money.

With Georgia just getting started to get involved in the planning and studies for the SE HSR and with Atlanta having a limited station, all this talk about providing daytime service to ATL is way ahead of the situation. The focus should be on improvements in VA and NC. Get many of the VA and NC planned track projects and service expansions in place, then talk about extending daytime service to ATL.
 
I do think a train over the direct NS line would be a good idea, but not as a replacement for this train. A re-route would cut out Raleigh and Richmond and all other stops between Greensboro and Alexandria VA.

The current practical run times between Washington and Atlanta, about 13 to 14 hours requires a New York to Atlanta day train to have early morning / late night times at the start / end points. This might or might not be worth doing. A train with reasonable Atlanta origin terminating times would give very early times southbound and late times northbound for points north Washington and about Baltimore, and, again, might not be worth doing. A New York to Atlanta train with a New York City arrival time in the 8:00a.m. northbound and Charlotte southbound would likely have good ridership.
 
Please remember that you can choose multiple options! I fyou want to kkeep the Carolonian the way it is and then add another train on the Southern route, just choose "Other" and "Separate day train." I do not understand why people disagree with the idea of adding a completely SEPARATE train on the Southern route from WAS or NYP. You know that it is underserved and that is no day train, so why not support such an idea separate to the Carolinian?
 
Please remember that you can choose multiple options! I fyou want to kkeep the Carolonian the way it is and then add another train on the Southern route, just choose "Other" and "Separate day train." I do not understand why people disagree with the idea of adding a completely SEPARATE train on the Southern route from WAS or NYP. You know that it is underserved and that is no day train, so why not support such an idea separate to the Carolinian?
Because many people find it pointless to vote for multiple options that will all not happen in the foreseeable future. While it is nice to hope, they don't want to get their hopes too high up. I like the suggestion made previously that Amtrak market a Washington-Atlanta day train with a cross platform connection to 66/67 at WAS. This way, any possible train would have the ability to use bilevel equipment. The infrastructure problems are many though. With increasing passenger trains up until Lynchburg, it may not be too far off before NS may require some investment from Amtrak. I am hesitant to want to use single level equip and send it to Boston on the Shoreliner though because as was seen in the September PIPs, once you add sleepers and a sit-down food service car, the train is instantly less successful in CR. That's why I think a cross platform connection would be better, so that a successful regional and a likely successful day train would not be brought down together. The fact that high platforms will soon be in place at many station does significantly preclude bilevel operation, and I'm not sure how that would work out. u actually believe thought that getting a day train in before asking Georgia for money would be good though. It would be a good reason for Georgia to pay for a new facility in Atlanta and then once they're at that point, they may figure that they might as well help pay for the train. 2 Superliner coaches would absolutely not be enough for the train. I still stand by my claim that cars tacked on to the bilevel order would be good. A biz car, cafe/coach, and 5 more coaches. I think this could be supported.

Also off topic, once the Norfolk extension is complete, it is likely that it will be as successful if not far more than Newport News. If the Norfolk extension does end up being more popular, is there a chance that they could shift 66/67 to terminate there?
 
Didn't they do a study and find that they lose ~40% of passengers if they mandate cross-platform transfers?

So IMO if the trains connected at WAS they would end up as one train.
 
Didn't they do a study and find that they lose ~40% of passengers if they mandate cross-platform transfers?

So IMO if the trains connected at WAS they would end up as one train.
Yeah I understand the problem with that, however, this would preclude higher-capacity, nicer bilevel equipment from being used (although the Horizons might do in a few years). It would also mandate the actual sleepers and full food service car, and that means that the CR will be lower and the train will look less appealing to politicians.
 
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Didn't they do a study and find that they lose ~40% of passengers if they mandate cross-platform transfers?

So IMO if the trains connected at WAS they would end up as one train.
I think that number is very rough and depends on circumstances. As for connections between two daily notoriously late LD's, transfers are a pain and layover times have to be long in order to guarantee the connections. But between trains with better OTP or more frequencies, not so much.

As for 66/67 reliability is not really an issue given its extreme padding. But whether enough reliability could be achieved on the norhbound Atlanta train, I don't know.

In short both options have pros and cons. 66/67 already runs to NPN, so it would have to be a split, and the Norfolk service is also a candidate for that. (on a side note, Johnny, I think that the current run to NPN will stay but might be supplemented with a Norfolk train either as a split or one of them as a connection at RVR). So another successful train (or potentially successful in case of the Norfolk service) would have to have the transfer instead. The other option is to run two trains, but I doubt there is enough traffic for Amtrak to want to run two late night trains WAS-NYP.

As for equipment, demanding bilevels just adds another obstacle. There is no maintenance base for them anywhere near and there is currently no spare cars. As for single levels Horizons will be freed up before this service has any chance of getting started, and they will look for feasible routes to run on.

But still - as long as the Atlanta station issues are unsolved this is just dreaming. It'a a very feasible route, and in that sense one of the lowest hanging fruits, but Georgia has been sitting on its hands for decades :(
 
But still - as long as the Atlanta station issues are unsolved this is just dreaming. . . Georgia has been sitting on its hands for decades
True. Also there is little bottom-up push within Georgia for a second train from Atlanta to Charlotte and beyond. Nor has South Carolina expressed any interest. The only way a train can be added is for those states to provide hard dollars. North Carolina isn't interested, either; the primary focus is Charlotte-Raleigh-NEC and if there are any excess dollars, they'd be spent on intra-state to Wilmington or Asheville.

I still believe the most likely train to be added out of Atlanta would run Atlanta-Macon-Savannah.. but even that's a long way off.
 
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But still - as long as the Atlanta station issues are unsolved this is just dreaming. . . Georgia has been sitting on its hands for decades
True. Also there is little bottom-up push within Georgia for a second train from Atlanta to Charlotte and beyond. Nor has South Carolina expressed any interest. The only way a train can be added is for those states to provide hard dollars. North Carolina isn't interested, either; the primary focus is Charlotte-Raleigh-NEC and if there are any excess dollars, they'd be spent on intra-state to Wilmington or Asheville.

I still believe the most likely train to be added out of Atlanta would run Atlanta-Macon-Savannah.. but even that's a long way off.
I completely agree with your assessment. NC has two focuses, and you identify them correctly. NC is not likely to fund anything heading south to Atlanta unless SC and GA step up with preponderance of the funding for such, and I don't see that happening.

I also do not see any train to Atlanta being put together as an NEC extension service. So these ideas about 66/67 getting extended is just idle fantasy. 66/67 will remain exactly where it is. There might be minor changes in VA, e.g. getting moved to Norfolk instead of Newport News or such, but nothing bigger than that.
 
I actually emailed Amtrak and proposed that they extend the Piedmont to Columbia SC. People in Charlotte could get to Florida by train much faster then it would to go north to Raleigh and then transfer. And since the Carolina Panthers are building a facility in Rock Hill SC they could even sponsor the train.
And maybe rename it the Carolina Capitals because of the terminating cities?
It might be really popular on game days too.
 
But also I ride the Carolinian occasionally and the longest part of the trip is North Carolina. It takes forever to get to Charlotte. If they can find a way to make that single track section go faster then definitely do it. Also why is it called the the Carolinian of it only goes through one Carolina?
 
The state pays for it so the state can name it as they see fit. Your wasting your time writing Amtrak when you should be writing NCDOT and SCDOT. Those are the ones who can make something happen.

The Carolinian and Piedmont Amtrak is just the operating and ticketing contractor. And on the Carolinian also the equipment contractor.
 
The state pays for it so the state can name it as they see fit. Your wasting your time writing Amtrak when you should be writing NCDOT and SCDOT. Those are the ones who can make something happen.

The Carolinian and Piedmont Amtrak is just the operating and ticketing contractor. And on the Carolinian also the equipment contractor.
Ah. I see. But I wonder if instead of extending the Carolinian to Atlanta what about to Columbia? Just thinking out loud
 
The Carolinian is funded by NC. It is not going to SC or GA unless those states decide to chip in. History suggests unless the politics changes drastically in those states they are unlikely to fund any such.

Also, it is not trivial to extend the Carolinian to anywhere. All such proposals involve finding additional consists, which means additional funding beyond just operations. Also the Carolinian timetable does not work too well for any such extensions either. Maybe worth thinking about after SEHSR between Petersburg and Raleigh goes on line.
 
Way to resurrect a seven-and-a-half-year-old thread...

Jis has most of this nailed down. In the scheme of things you might have some luck looking at an extension of SEHSR services. Otherwise, the only reason NC might consider it would be if it improved operating performance and had low capital costs...and an extension to Atlanta or Columbia will likely do neither on anything close to the current timetable.
 
When the '"S" line is rebuilt and SE HSR starts then to ATL is a real possibility. NYP - ATL by Raleigh and "S" line will be more than the 750 mile restrictions. Enroute time will be much the same as Crescent even though present Crescent route is shorter. However Crescent route has only 4 intermediate stops north of Greensborough Raleigh route will have an unknown number stops probably between 8 and 10.
 
I am not sure whether being more than 750 miles is a blessing or a curse these days. I don't see Amtrak starting any new train that impinges on the National account, unless there is a specific appropriation assigned to a specific route. They seem to be all excited about State corridors, paid for mostly by the states.
 
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