Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[Seaboard92]

I saw an article yesterday talking about Brightline Expansion with routes they were possibly eyeing. On them the two that stood out most to me.

1. Dallas to Houston which is the route Texas Central wants to operate.

2. Atlanta to Charlotte which I think arguably would be their better choice. Both are large cities with a fairly crappy level of service with a decent medium sized city in the middle (Greenville) and a large college (Clemson). So in theory that makes it a fairly good route. The next thing it has going for it from a passenger standpoint is a connection to Raleigh with the Piedmonts running multiple times a day.

Lastly Atlanta makes a far better hub if you are building a network because you can easily hit Macon/Jacksonville, Macon/Savannah, Birmingham, Montgomery, Chattanooga/Knoxville, Chattanooga/Nashville, Augusta/Columbia. The connectivity would make it a fairly good little system.

 

[Anderson]

I think this is the article:
http://www.floridatrend.com/article/24532/brightline-texas-brightline-examines-expanding-outside-florida

Dallas-Houston is probably the most obvious market...but that's why Texas Central jumped in there first. I actually think that in some respects, Brightline might have the better product from a public policy perspective insofar as it doesn't require total separation from other railroad operations (so you could probably work something out to use existing tracks on the endpoints...for example, accessing downtown Houston or connecting over to Fort Worth).

Atlanta-Charlotte and Chicago-St. Louis both make sense to me, though the latter would probably need Illinois to support them by not having a head-to-head fight with the Lincoln Service trains. As strangely awesome as it would be to see Amtrak forced to go head-to-head with a private operator, I'd be worried about a cannibalized market situation. An Atlanta hub actually raises the prospect of actually connecting to the Florida operation in the long(er) term.

And I kind of can't believe we're actually getting to have this discussion.

 

[JRR]

Heading to Atlanta Friday. Unfortunately in my pickup truck. Just can’t get there from Boca on the train in any reasonable way.

Would be nice to have a Florida Atlanta train option.

 

[jis]

More on the West Palm Beach Quiet Zone...

https://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/sound-silence-brightline-tiptoes-through-west-palm-quiet-zones/mYmJ3MZX1w8SBDT7gfwHfK/

 

[cirdan]

I think this is the article:

http://www.floridatrend.com/article/24532/brightline-texas-brightline-examines-expanding-outside-florida

Dallas-Houston is probably the most obvious market...but that's why Texas Central jumped in there first. I actually think that in some respects, Brightline might have the better product from a public policy perspective insofar as it doesn't require total separation from other railroad operations (so you could probably work something out to use existing tracks on the endpoints...for example, accessing downtown Houston or connecting over to Fort Worth).

Seeing the present FEC service more or less sprang up from the ashes of the scuppered Florida HS project, maybe there is a precedent here should Texas Central fail.

Or even for FEC to use their lobbying arm to, um ... er ..., make it thus.

 

[cirdan]

Atlanta-Charlotte and Chicago-St. Louis both make sense to me, though the latter would probably need Illinois to support them by not having a head-to-head fight with the Lincoln Service trains. As strangely awesome as it would be to see Amtrak forced to go head-to-head with a private operator, I'd be worried about a cannibalized market situation. An Atlanta hub actually raises the prospect of actually connecting to the Florida operation in the long(er) term.

Either that, or they are maybe thinking they could take over the Lincoln Service from Amtrak.

 

[chrsjrcj]

I think Brightline captured lightning in a bottle with Fortress owning a real estate company and a railroad (now sold off). I can't see how expanding outside of Florida wouldn't result in a similar outcome to the AutoTrain after they opened their Sanford to Louisville route.

I suppose they could become an operator like Herzog, Keolis, Iowa Pacific, etc., but that requires having more Gene Skoropowskis (who retired last year) and less Disney people.

 

[cirdan]

I think Brightline captured lightning in a bottle with Fortress owning a real estate company and a railroad (now sold off). I can't see how expanding outside of Florida wouldn't result in a similar outcome to the AutoTrain after they opened their Sanford to Louisville route.

I suppose they could become an operator like Herzog, Keolis, Iowa Pacific, etc., but that requires having more Gene Skoropowskis (who retired last year) and less Disney people.

Maybe they can establish themselves more as a service company. They can talk to people who own a lot of real estate at strategic locations and offer to provide their know-how to increase the value of said real estate by adding a rail service. Either with the real estate owners contracting for the train servioce wholesale and not needing to get involved in the details, or just by Brightline being a middle.man or consultant and teaching them how to build such a service..

 

[jis]

I think all the talk of anything outside Florida is very pie in the sky, in the same category as Amtrak adding another LD train at this moment. Aspirations yes, but nothing beyond that yet.

 

[Brian_tampa]

According to the GOAA monthly board meeting agenda and presentation from Wednesday, May 16, "AAF is working diligently" on obtaining financing for phase 2. In the presentation it says AAF plans to close on the financing deal by August/September 2018 and it will be 40% equity and 60% debt. Also, $200M has already been spent on phase 2. I would assume most of this amount is for the 5 new trainsets required for phase 2 operation.

Up through late April (?) It also claimed that 100,000 riders have used Brightline since it opened.

Main construction of phase 2 will begin in fall of 2018 with early construction work at MCO starting in July. That would include utility surveying and land preparation for the vehicle maintenance facility. AAF will have around 30 construction management employees based out of the ITF once construction ramps up.

Board_Presentation_20180516 (1).pdf

 

[Anderson]

On the first train out of Miami, waiting for departure.

One note: The trains are listed as sold out WPB-FLL. That is patent nonsense as of the 0700 departure. A friend in Smart FLL-MIA said his coach was about half empty, though Select was slam full. Brightline may have fluffed their numbers a little on the outlying departures...I find it hard to believe they have sold out the late evening round trip (ridership dymamics being what they are).

Also, the vouchers for food/drink this weekend are a bit odd...not sure why they didn't just charge $9.99 for Select and cut that out.

 

[jis]

Something to do with the mystical marketing symbolism of 305 I presume [emoji57]

The 11am out of WPB had some free seats to FLL, but from FLL it was completely full.

Now waiting to board my 3:10pm return trip from Miami.

 

[Anderson]

...right. $3 or $5. Go figure....

 

[daybeers]

...and how was it?

 

[jis]

I was on the 11am out of WPB on Saturday. The train left WPB probably about 80% full. Quite a few got off at Fort Lauderdale, but many more got on and the train appeared to leave Fort Lauderdale close to 100% full.

This time I was traveling in Smart, a first for me, since all my previous trips were in Select. Smart was actually surprisingly good.

There is a lot of track work still going on between Fort Lauderdale and Miami with all sorts of speed limits here and there. Interestingly, all grade crossing in Miami City limits were protected by flagmen, in addition to the regular barriers, suggesting that the barriers were not working reliably that day.

The climb up the ramp to the station was very slow. Only the extreme North end of the complex is currently open for operating the trains. The rest of the complex, including the entire planned commercial area/Mall is still under construction.

The Metromover Station Wilkie D. Ferguson Jr. is the most convenient to the Brightline Station, a walk of a short block from it. Currently no covered walkway, but upon completion of construction, there will be. The Metro Station Lyric Theater is adjacent to the Brightline Station, though there is no covered walkway connecting to it.

I took the Metromover to downtown and got a good lunch. It was drizzling off and on so not much chance to walk around without getting wet. Hence I took the opportunity to explore the entire Metromover system, before returning to the Birghtline station for my 3:10pm return trip to WPB.

The departure from Miami was again very slow, though exactly on time. Lot of stop and go for the first couple of miles. Then it picked up speed and arrived Fort Lauderdale just about on time. The train emptied out some there though there were significant number of hoardings there too. After a very solid run at track speed all the way to WPB we arrived there a good five minutes ahead of schedule.

It was a pleasant day of train riding. Brightline is in general a class operation so far.

Incidentally, four of the five consists were in circulation on Saturday. Two ran in the morning, and two others were apparently switched in in the afternoon.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Nice update--thanks, jis.

I realize it is smart to get tickets online ahead of time. But if someone wanted to go for a ride on impulse, can you buy a ticket at the station from an agent that day? Or is it all online?

 

[jis]

Nice update--thanks, jis.

I realize it is smart to get tickets online ahead of time. But if someone wanted to go for a ride on impulse, can you buy a ticket at the station from an agent that day? Or is it all online?

Yes. All stations are staffed and also have ticket kiosks, so you can get them either from a person or from a machine. It is kind of different selecting your seat as you buy the ticket. You even know before hand how much of a real window your seat will have.

If you happen to have a Smartphone, you can also buy and display your e-ticket on the phone.

 

[Anderson]

I made many comments about their service back in January. Those remarks more-or-less all hold true. The Miami station is quite a sight inside (I didn't get outside as the weather went bad while I was there); the Select lounge is about twice the size of the relevant lounges in FLL and WPB, but it also seems to be about the right size for handling the future Orlando traffic. I wish I had been able to spare some more time at Miami, both to poke around the station and for a chance to step outside the station.

There was obvious slow-running in a few cases:
-There were some inexplicable holds on approach to Miami. My best guess is that they held so as to time the arrival for everyone in the station to be in position.
-There was also a lot of slower running FLL-WPB than in the opposite direction. Basically, we were doing about 60 on the way north where we had been doing 79 on the way south. The fact that there's an extra 5 minutes on the timecard NB than SB suggests that /something/ is up here. What it is, I don't know.

We also ran 39 MPH for the first few miles out of Miami heading back; I think the tracks there aren't done.

The food options on the train are rather limited, but the Good to Go operation in the station provides some solid choices. I had a beef empanada at Miami and found it quite satisfying. The coffee was solid as well.

I do think they whiffed it with the F&B coupons. While you could use those more flexibly than the straight "complementary on board" options, both OBS personnel and passengers alike were confused (there was particularly intense confusion as to whether it was "one item per one-way ticket" or "one item per round trip").

I still find the claim that they sold out the late-night Saturday trains (particularly the FLL-WPB leg that boards just before midnight) to be nigh-on incredible, and the claims involving the first train into Miami (let alone its FLL leg) being 100% sold out do not line up with what my friend saw in Smart.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Is there anything to do near the West Palm Beach station? I am thinking that, if I visit my friend in Fort Lauderdale next winter, I will probably have a day to myself and could do a round trip. I would be a bit afraid to go to Miami by myself so would go to West Palm Beach. I would be happy to just go up and come back, but if there was something near there to go look at, that would be nice. Also not sure how safe West Palm Beach is?

 

[chrsjrcj]

I think West Palm Beach is very safe. The neighborhood north of Clematis Street (the north end of the station) is low income and has all the issues associated with a low income neighborhood, but I always feel safe on Clematis Street which has restaurants and bars. CityPlace is just to the south which has some high end shopping and more restaurants. If youre coming at night, Clematis Street is typically pretty active until 1 or 2 am during the weekend, so that shouldnt be an issue either.

Both areas are within easy walking distance to the train station. There is also a free trolley route that runs along Clematis Street to CityPlace.

 

[jis]

You can also take a short three block walk to the lagoon, and a slightly longer walk to the South Cove Natural Area, if you like that sort of thing. From the station take Evernia make a left on Rosemary and then a left on Fern and follow it to the end.

As mentioned by chrsjrcj most of the food places are either on Clementis to the north or Rosemary south of Fern.

All quite safe in my experience.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

When I transfereed from Brightline to the former Seaboard / Amtrak station in west Palm I felt like I was in a safe area the whole time. I stopped in at the Jamba Juice on my way.

The Brightline stations themselves are really nice and have very comfortable waiting rooms with outlets, wi-fi, coffee shop etc all within the security gates. So if you wanted to just ride to Miami and stay in the station, it's a nice place to hang out for a bit.

 

[jis]

And you can even get reasonable food and drinks from the self serve cafe in the station.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Good advice from those in the know Patty! Go for it!

BTW- Miami and South Beach are highly Overated,Expensive and Overhyped IMO.Youre not missing much!

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Thank you all for the excellent suggestions

. I have a feeling I will probably plan a nice energetic walk to the lagoon, persuade myself it is too hot, and go to City Place instead

. (I see there is a Panera and a Cheesecake Factory there, so I will feel right at home

).

Jim--

My friend who lives in Fort Lauderdale loves Miami, so I have been there with him, but I agree with you--I did not care for it and only went there because my friend likes it. However, I might take the suggestion of crescent-zephyr, and just go down there for the ride, stay in the lounge for a while, and come back.

The only reason to go to Miami otherwise would be to see the ships in the port, but the hotel I stay at in Fort Lauderdale is within walking distance of the port there, so I can easily see ships there.