Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[jis]

NJT’s Union station on the Raritan Valley Line, where it shares tracks with Conrail Shared Asset ex-Lehigh Valley very active freight line.

 

[railiner]

If you look up “gauntlet track” in Wiki, there are lots of former and active examples cited around the world...
I recall the ones they used to have in the B&P Tunnel at Baltimore to allow TOFC freight trains through...

 

[erierail]

No reason that a new state-of-the-art double-deck train couldn't have automatic doors, gap fillers and everything necessary to offer quick ADA-compliant boarding at low level platforms.

Why would you consider low level platforms? High level platforms make it easier for passengers to board especially with carry on luggage, having fewer steps are safer, results in lower accident cost. Reduces dwell tim at every station. Am I missing something here?

 

[cocojacoby]

Over the years we have converted many main lines to double-stack container clearance. In a fantasy world it would be an interesting if we also converted all AMTRAK routes to the Asian standard of 11 feet 2 inch width for passenger cars. California is considering it for it's high-speed rail project.

I think that would end all of the platform clearance problems, allow ADA access through the entire train consist and allow wider more comfortable sleeper rooms and roomier cafes and lounges.

It's a dream but actually may happen in California.

 

[jis]

Over the years we have converted many main lines to double-stack container clearance. In a fantasy world it would be an interesting if we also converted all AMTRAK routes to the Asian standard of 11 feet 2 inch width for passenger cars. California is considering it for it's high-speed rail project.

What Asian standard? That is not the standard at some of the largest of systems in Asia. That is something that the Japanese happen to use. But Japan is a minuscule portion of Asia, and they have the advantage of never having a standard gauge railroad until the Shnkansens were built.

The general standard in Asia is UIC and certain derivatives with minor variations.

An example interesting out of standard loading gauges in Asia other than the Japanese Shinkansen one are:

- 12' width form suburban EMUs, only on designated routes.
- 24' height for double stack on standard 4' high flat cars only on designated routes. India is doing this under 26' high catenary. Those pantographs on the locomotives cleared for the designated routes are sight to behold!

I think that would end all of the platform clearance problems, allow ADA access through the entire train consist and allow wider more comfortable sleeper rooms and roomier cafes and lounges.

You don't require 11'2" to get level boarding. All that you require is platform tracks isolated from wide load freight traffic, which is much easier and cheaper to achieve than trying to convert everything to 11'2".

It's a dream but actually may happen in California.

My suspicion is that even in California, the land of non-standard gauges, it will remain just a dream, since the rolling stock for California is as likely to come from Europe, and there will be way too much shared trackage with several other agencies. Maybe Texas might get there on one specific route unconnected with anything else. At the end of the day it is a pointless variation except in the minds of a few railfans who would probably go all the way to the TV series Supertrain dreams.

 

[chrsjrcj]

Wow, there's a term from the past. I remember learning it as gantlet, although the current spelling is more descriptive - as in "running the". I recall reading somewhere that this was considered as an option when the Southern California Sprinter service was inaugurated, but they went with platform ramps instead. Any examples where these tracks are still in use? I would presume the cost of switching them to and from "live" would be a disincentive in today's reality.

The new SMART commuter train system installed gauntlet tracks at their station -

 

[jiml]

The new SMART commuter train system installed gauntlet tracks at their station -

I see that. Thanks for the video link. Is that an area of heavy freight traffic or is the track that's farther away from the platform for faster (e.g. non-stop) moves?

I did some reading on the route that jis referenced above and freight there is definitely an issue.

 

[Qapla]

It would have been nice if the video had shown a train that did not move to the platform so we could see just what type of trains go straight.

 

[jis]

It would have been nice if the video had shown a train that did not move to the platform so we could see just what type of trains go straight.

Generally freight trains, even those that that don’t need to for clearance. Easier logistically to do it that way.

 

[Qapla]

I figured it was probably freight ... but it still would have been nice to see one in the video

When I was in Kissimmee waiting at the platform for SunRail I saw Amtrak show up (I have also been on the Altrak at that station) - but it also stops at that same location. All of the other SunRail trains I saw also stopped. However, I also saw a freight go by using the same tracks.

Both the SunRail and Amtrak show up running a bit slow so they don't overshoot the stop - heading south the train comes from around a curve and you see it creep around that curve and seemingly coast up to the platform ... The freight trains - That's a different story

Since they do not stop they are moving much faster. As they come around that curve they seem to suddenly appear and rush at you. As they roar past the seating area on the platform you can feel the wind they drag with them. One moment they show up coming around that curve and the next they are quickly disappearing south leaving blast of air and any papers that were left by people catching the other trains. The attendant that is there for SunRail tells everyone to "step back" when a freight is coming so the wind doesn't grab them ... since many stand as close to the edge as is allowed when the passenger trains show up.

 

[railiner]

Speaking of wider passenger trains, besides the six-seats across suburban trains in Mumbai, I also saw that on the Shanghai Maglev....

Anyone recall that NBC show, “Supertrain”?
It was so wide, it had to run on double track...

 

[cirdan]

Speaking of wider passenger trains, besides the six-seats across suburban trains in Mumbai, I also saw that on the Shanghai Maglev....

Anyone recall that NBC show, “Supertrain”?
It was so wide, it had to run on double track...

talking about really wide trains, there is always the monstrous and borderline fantasy (or shall we call it delusional) broad gauge that Hitler was planning to build

 

[railiner]

talking about really wide trains, there is always the monstrous and borderline fantasy (or shall we call it delusional) broad gauge that Hitler was planning to build

View attachment 15793 View attachment 15794

Wow! Great find, thanks for posting that...it is too bad that, that was never built, although it would have meant a 'bad' ending of WWII, if it had....

 

[jamess]

Why would you consider low level platforms? High level platforms make it easier for passengers to board especially with carry on luggage, having fewer steps are safer, results in lower accident cost. Reduces dwell tim at every station. Am I missing something here?

With a double-Decker train, there are no stairs to access the bottom level. No luggage issues, no step issues, no dwell issues.

You CAN have level boarding with a low platform.

 

[MikefromCrete]

How tall are those platforms? FrontRunner basically runs on its own trackage next to UP's freight lines. Would they clear a freight train? That is the question. Outside of the high platform Metra Electric stations, all Chicago bi-levels require a step up from the platform.

 

[me_little_me]

talking about really wide trains, there is always the monstrous and borderline fantasy (or shall we call it delusional) broad gauge that Hitler was planning to build

/QUOTE]
View attachment 15794

Do I see signs telling people to order at the counter and bus their own tables in that picture? Are those plastic cutlery and plastic-tasting food items?

 

[jamess]

How tall are those platforms? FrontRunner basically runs on its own trackage next to UP's freight lines. Would they clear a freight train? That is the question. Outside of the high platform Metra Electric stations, all Chicago bi-levels require a step up from the platform.

No, the question was if you can do low-level with the same accessibility ease as high level. And you can!

Does it work for freight? That doesnt really matter, because if it doesnt, you would just build the same passing track you would for a high level, but still save money since a low level is cheaper.

As I mentioned earlier, I think that people associate high level with better quality, since it does cost more

 

[Qapla]

Maybe I'm a little dense ... but what does "low level" actually mean? It seems some are referring to "ground level" while others are referring to having a platform of some type.

It would be impossible to have something on wheels to have "ground level" boarding since it has to sit on the wheels - even getting in one of those really low cars requires some sort of stepping up.

When we get on Amtrak in Palatka we have to step up on one of those orange stools they put on the ground and climb the steps up into the viewliner coach. I have been in a station where I was able to just walk directly from the platform into the viewliner coach.

I recently rode the SunRail commuter train in Orlando. I guess it would be considered a "low level" coach since the floor is nowhere near as high as the floor in the viewliner. The SunRail uses Bombardier Bi-Level VII coaches. The platform is raised just enough to step directly into the coach.

At many of the SunRail platforms the tracks are shared with Amtrak, SunRail and CSX Freight. The Amtrak Station in Kissimmee is at the same location as the SunRail Platform. You board Amtrak just past the SunRail platform directly to the ground using the orange stool Amtrak places on the ground. SunRail's platforms are raised enough to step directly into the SunRail coach.

As can be seen, this station only has two tracks with a short fence in between.

Freight trains use these tracks running on the same tracks as used by Amtrak and SunRail - only the freights travel much faster through the station area since they are not stopping. They clear the platforms just fine.

 

[chrsjrcj]

I believe low level coaches have the door 17” off the rail while high level coaches are 48”.

Tri-Rail, SunRail, and the UTA FrontRunner (post 2664) all use the same coaches. The UTA FrontRunner appears to offer completely level boarding and does not have a step up like SunRail and Tri-Rail, but FrontRunner also has dedicated ROW that Tri-Rail and SunRail do not have.

 

[cirdan]

No, the question was if you can do low-level with the same accessibility ease as high level. And you can!

Does it work for freight? That doesnt really matter, because if it doesnt, you would just build the same passing track you would for a high level, but still save money since a low level is cheaper.

As I mentioned earlier, I think that people associate high level with better quality, since it does cost more

Low level of the type in the photo upthread is fine for a commuter service but less so for an intercity service because the low level is only within the one car and you need to use steps to get into the next car. On a commuter service you typically stay in the car that you first board so that doesn't matter. But on an intercity service there will for example be a food cart or similar and although I'm sure that ingenious workarounds are possible for getting those up and down steps, it's easier if you can avoid that problem in the first place.

A Talgo set is low level and you can walk through a set end to end without steps. So it's a pretty good compromise in that respect. But I assume Brightline ran the figures and then didn't chose Talgo.

 

[cocojacoby]

Low level of the type in the photo upthread is fine for a commuter service but less so for an intercity service because the low level is only within the one car and you need to use steps to get into the next car. On a commuter service you typically stay in the car that you first board so that doesn't matter. But on an intercity service there will for example be a food cart or similar and although I'm sure that ingenious workarounds are possible for getting those up and down steps, it's easier if you can avoid that problem in the first place.

A Talgo set is low level and you can walk through a set end to end without steps. So it's a pretty good compromise in that respect. But I assume Brightline ran the figures and then didn't chose Talgo.

How about a train that solves all this?

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/27033561/talgo-22

 

[Ziv]

Interesting. It can be a little taller than a Superliner II but it looks doable. The 3.3m width version could be problematic, the SL II is 3.1m if memory serves. This would be great for the stations with shorter platforms. The one thing that stood out for me, though, it the fact that this Talgo didn't get hit with the ugly stick.

How about a train that solves all this?View attachment 15804

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/27033561/talgo-22

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Wow, there's a term from the past. I remember learning it as gantlet, although the current spelling is more descriptive - as in "running the". I recall reading somewhere that this was considered as an option when the Southern California Sprinter service was inaugurated, but they went with platform ramps instead. Any examples where these tracks are still in use? I would presume the cost of switching them to and from "live" would be a disincentive in today's reality.

Here's a current example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammond_station_(South_Shore_Line)

 

[jis]

Interesting. It can be a little taller than a Superliner II but it looks doable. The 3.3m width version could be problematic, the SL II is 3.1m if memory serves. This would be great for the stations with shorter platforms. The one thing that stood out for me, though, it the fact that this Talgo didn't get hit with the ugly stick.

The other thing is that this at present is what we in the software industry call vaporware. Nice idea and possibly quite doable, but AFAICT after due consideration, Finnish Railways (VR) opted to get standard multi-level cars instead with standard trucks (boarding at lower level gangways at middle level), and passed on Talgo's pendular suspension, and Talgo Oy delivered them to VR.

 

[Ziv]

And reality slaps me upside the head...
LOL!
It would be cool if they could build it, and deliver it, at a decent price point.

The other thing is that this at present is what we in the software industry call vaporware. Nice idea and possibly quite doable, but AFAICT after due consideration, Finnish Railways (VR) opted to get standard multi-level cars instead with standard trucks (boarding at lower level gangways at middle level), and passed on Talgo's pendular suspension, and Talgo Oy delivered them to VR.