Auto Train Cuts

[railiner]

I don't understand why Amtrak doesn't offer a premium level of service for a premium price. I was talking to a manager of a very successful tourist operation. He said they just break even on the coach business, but make money on the premium services. Why doesn't A-T at least try it? A sleeper or two with it's own diner-lounge offering Pullman co. level services - at a price. I suspect there are enough high roller retirees that would jump at it.

Too bad they can't relocate the Pullman Rail Journeys operation from the City of New Orleans over to the Auto Train....they might do a lot better in that market.

That way, the 'Mica Manager's' would not have a basis to complain, since a private company would be providing the luxury service....

And they could run a dedicated luxury bus from Washington (or its airport) down to Lorton, and another from Sanford to Palm Beach or Fort Lauderdale for passenger's not transporting automobiles. And Pullman could supply their own HEP to solve that restriction...

What do you think about that?

 

[FormerOBS]

What is the point of putting passengers without autos on the Auto Train? Auto Train does not have space aboard to handle any more passengers. If passengers don't want to take their car along, Amtrak has Silver Service trains they can use. What you are proposing would exceed the fifty car limit imposed by CSX and the FRA. I won't get into the logistics of handling another car to supply HEP and having someone to operate it.

Tom

 

[afigg]

Too bad they can't relocate the Pullman Rail Journeys operation from the City of New Orleans over to the Auto Train....they might do a lot better in that market.

That way, the 'Mica Manager's' would not have a basis to complain, since a private company would be providing the luxury service....

And they could run a dedicated luxury bus from Washington (or its airport) down to Lorton, and another from Sanford to Palm Beach or Fort Lauderdale for passenger's not transporting automobiles. And Pullman could supply their own HEP to solve that restriction...

What do you think about that?

The purpose of the AT is to transport people and their automobiles. Setting aside the AT consist limits for the moment, why would people take a bus, even a luxury bus from DC to Lorton, then get on the AT, and then a luxury bus from Sanford FL to Fort Lauderdale/Miami when they get on an Amtrak train from DC to Miami? If Pullman thinks there is a market for luxury sleeper travel from NY-DC to southern Florida, why not put the Pullman cars on the Silver Meteor? Which, incidentally, Pullman did do for a special one-of trip from Chicago to Miami (via the Capitol Limited and the Meteor) recently.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I agree that it would be an outstanding idea for Iowa Pacific to run their Luxury cars on the Silver Meteor to Florida!

As was said, even the Mica Managers in Congress can't object to a for profit company running a Luxury train service! !

 

[tonys96]

I don't understand why Amtrak doesn't offer a premium level of service for a premium price. I was talking to a manager of a very successful tourist operation. He said they just break even on the coach business, but make money on the premium services. Why doesn't A-T at least try it? A sleeper or two with it's own diner-lounge offering Pullman co. level services - at a price. I suspect there are enough high roller retirees that would jump at it.

Too bad they can't relocate the Pullman Rail Journeys operation from the City of New Orleans over to the Auto Train....they might do a lot better in that market.

That way, the 'Mica Manager's' would not have a basis to complain, since a private company would be providing the luxury service....

And they could run a dedicated luxury bus from Washington (or its airport) down to Lorton, and another from Sanford to Palm Beach or Fort Lauderdale for passenger's not transporting automobiles. And Pullman could supply their own HEP to solve that restriction...

What do you think about that?

Nah, makes way too much sense.

 

[Ryan]

That makes no sense whatsoever for the reasons given in afigg's post.

 

[rrdude]

That makes no sense whatsoever for the reasons given in afigg's post.

So, "expect that any day, 'cause it's Amtrak........." LOL

 

[NE933]

Oh, so many things about the problem of capacity shortage of Amtrak's Auto Train and Amtrak's non Auto Trains.

NY to Florida, like NY to Chicago, has a demand for more frequencies. Other city pairs should have multiple frequencies but I avoid naming them to keep the topic on topic. NY to the Sunshine state needs another Silver Service frequency (bring back the Palm); until that happens, or maybe even after, it would make sense for Auto Train to carry passengers who are willing to board at Lorton or Sanford. Ideally there would be two Auto Trains (whether each is an exact twin of the other is open to the reader's, and paying public's, evaluation), so the 46(?) car limit would not be of worry, not yet anyway.

 

[FormerOBS]

OK. Now you want two Auto Trains. Would your proposed schedules provide for both consists to be at the same terminal at the same time? If so, where would you put all the equipment? If not, then I'm curious what schedules you're proposing for these trains. What will you do when one Auto Train is delayed and the other is on time, putting both trains at the same terminal at the same time? There was a proposal to build a much larger terminal in Sanford, but sufficient money wasn't provided by Congress, so the new terminal was built on the crowded site of the old one. At the opening of the new Sanford terminal, Mr. Mica reportedly asked an Amtrak official why it had been built in such a cramped area, instead of the more spacious area to the north (RR direction) and was told "because your committee cut the funds to build it there" (not necessarily an exact quote). That larger area is no longer available because a station and maintenance facility for Sunrail has been built there. Maybe you're proposing different terminals. Who's going to pay to build them? For that matter, who's going to pay for the feasibility studies before they're built? Who's going to talk CSX into operating an additional Auto Train in both directions on their busy main line? Where will the additional Superliners come from? (The newly rebuilt platform is too low for single-level equipment). If a second Auto Train is inaugurated, it can only be justified if it runs at or near capacity. That means more auto carriers. Where will they come from? There are lots more questions, but I'll stop for now.

Forty six car limit? Never heard of it. It's fifty, but I'm not sure whether that includes the two locomotives.

"For every complex question, there is a simple answer ---- which is wrong."

Tom

 

[Ryan]

"For every complex question, there is a simple answer ---- which is wrong."

Tom

This might be the best statement I've read in my 5+ years knocking about here.

Haolerider had one about internet experts and keyboards that was quite good, this one may best it.

 

[FormerOBS]

To be fair, I guess I shouldn't be harsh. I suspect the suggestions were made by somebody who has never seen the Auto Train's terminals, equipment, or operations. From a distance, the issues probably don't look that complicated.

BTW, I don't remember where I first heard that expression, but it's one I'll never forget. It fits so very many situations.

Tom

 

[railiner]

What is the point of putting passengers without autos on the Auto Train? Auto Train does not have space aboard to handle any more passengers. If passengers don't want to take their car along, Amtrak has Silver Service trains they can use. What you are proposing would exceed the fifty car limit imposed by CSX and the FRA. I won't get into the logistics of handling another car to supply HEP and having someone to operate it.

Tom

Too bad they can't relocate the Pullman Rail Journeys operation from the City of New Orleans over to the Auto Train....they might do a lot better in that market.

That way, the 'Mica Manager's' would not have a basis to complain, since a private company would be providing the luxury service....

And they could run a dedicated luxury bus from Washington (or its airport) down to Lorton, and another from Sanford to Palm Beach or Fort Lauderdale for passenger's not transporting automobiles. And Pullman could supply their own HEP to solve that restriction...

What do you think about that?

The purpose of the AT is to transport people and their automobiles. Setting aside the AT consist limits for the moment, why would people take a bus, even a luxury bus from DC to Lorton, then get on the AT, and then a luxury bus from Sanford FL to Fort Lauderdale/Miami when they get on an Amtrak train from DC to Miami? If Pullman thinks there is a market for luxury sleeper travel from NY-DC to southern Florida, why not put the Pullman cars on the Silver Meteor? Which, incidentally, Pullman did do for a special one-of trip from Chicago to Miami (via the Capitol Limited and the Meteor) recently.

Okay then, I wasn't aware of the total car limitation of the Auto Train. I was not suggesting putting additional passenger's onto Amtrak's cars....the Pullman passenger's would only occupy Pullman's cars. The reason I suggested adding them to the Auto Train, was to allow dome lounge equipment, which the "Silver" trains can't carry.

So yes....perhaps it would be a better idea to forego the domes, and just add single level cars to a "Silver" train for a trial period.....

 

[Devil's Advocate]

In my view what makes improving or expanding (or even dismantling) Amtrak so difficult has little to do with any innate or fundamental complexity and nearly everything to do with political momentum and economic inertia. Unwinding assumptions and revisiting conclusions that have remained largely unchallenged for nearly half a century is not an easy task.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

American Orient Express (AOE) use to run cars on the sliver service. Of course the bankrupt of the company stop that. Never daily, or north of DC.

 

[The Whistler]

We already scratched the Auto Train off of the routes that we take exactly only due to these cuts. Right now the passenger load is still there but lets wait a bit and see. We will now drive but I would say more people will be flying. Sleepers on the Autotrain cost a lot of money. Here they have steadily raised prices and want to give you less for it. Thanks for making me a Florida driver again. With the lower prices on fuel we will really be ahead of the game.

 

[AlexandriaVA]

Hate to say it, but given the passenger load and financial performance, sounds like there's even more cost cutting they could squeeze out of the route.

I've said this several times on here, but nearly every single European night train I've come across is pretty spartan...you get a box breakfast with a room or couchette, (slightly nicer in a first-class room), and that's it. There's a bistro car, but you pay for your meal. Most people eat beforehand or bring a picnic on board (alcohol allowed in coach as well).

 

[rrdude]

I flippin' hate to think this, but if pax loads hold fast on the AT, that is, there is no reduction because of the amenities cuts, then Amtrak did the right thing. (It took my fingers five minutes to just type "did the right thing")

I too think it is a bit early to tell, even though there are, dare I say, a "dozen or more" posters just on this board who have canx or not made future AT rezzies, if there is an overwhelming demand in the gen-pop, then it really doesn't matter a whit what us railfans think of the amenities cuts.

After all, I dealt with a restaurant owner for YEARS who refused to issue coupons, saying, "If I'm full to capacity, why give away anything for free, when they are gonna buy it anyways.........." He ran a pretty schlock operation, low(er) quality food, pizza, subs, always buying at the bottom of the options from Sysco and USFoods.

And his prices reflected it. He was catering to HIS market. Why give away ANYthing, when people are beating a path to your door.

With Amtrak, it's doubly effective, as there is ZERO, NADA, NONE, competition for this type of service. (not talking about shipping your auto down in advance, either, or using a drive-away service)

Time will tell.

 

[Palmland]

If the A-T continues to operate at capacity, even with reduced amenities, then it's not a question of getting more passengers. And we know the consist size is fixed. My question is, why doesn't Amtrak offer a premium Pullman type service with existing, but upgraded, SL equipment for a significantly higher price. The questions isn't how do we get more passengers (especially if a second section is impractical), but rather how do we get more revenue per passenger. Even the airlines, who seem to enjoy cramming as many bodies into the plane as possible, still offer first class seating because they know they can get top dollar. Maybe it's not possible with a government based operation with rigid work rules?

 

[Ryan]

Will the cost of upgrading the cars and providing the higher end service generate enough additional revenue to make the whole effort worthwhile? Doubtful.

 

[Palmland]

Will the cost of upgrading the cars and providing the higher end service generate enough additional revenue to make the whole effort worthwhile? Doubtful.

You could well be correct. Let's just hope Amtrak has considered this, done their analysis, and reached that conclusion.

Another approach might be to differentiate pricing of vehicles. I thought Amtrak was doing this, but appears just one price from a small vehicle to a truck (except motorcycles). Probably makes loading easier if all auto carriers are configured the same, but if it seems if your vehicle takes up more space it should cost more. Especially since more larger vehicles could require more auto carriers and reduce the cars available for passengers.

 

[railiner]

Will the cost of upgrading the cars and providing the higher end service generate enough additional revenue to make the whole effort worthwhile? Doubtful.

I can't say, when it comes to Amtrak...but apparently the airlines think so....I've heard that their premium passenger's represent a tiny portion of the total, but account for a huge portion of revenue. I am also not entirely sure if 'premium' means highest tier frequent traveler's, or those paying top fares either for last minute coach, or business and first class.

Does anyone know whether a sleeper or a coach on a long distance train yields a higher profit, after all expenses are considered?

 

[Paulus]

Boils down to how much of the dining car's expense you throw onto the sleepers and is somewhat route dependent. Part of the problem is that we don't know how much gets transferred from the sleeper account to the F&B account which would allow for a fairly simple look at it. On a per car basis, coach has higher revenue on most Eastern LDTs thanks to high turnover while the vast expanses of nothing combine with more seating on the Western LDTS to reduce turnover and revenue so that sleepers appear to be higher.

 

[Ryan]

Will the cost of upgrading the cars and providing the higher end service generate enough additional revenue to make the whole effort worthwhile? Doubtful.

I can't say, when it comes to Amtrak...but apparently the airlines think so....I've heard that their premium passenger's represent a tiny portion of the total, but account for a huge portion of revenue.

Driven almost entirely by business travelers that aren't paying out of pocket for those seats. The Amtrak analog to that is Acela (and Acela First in particular), it doesn't really translate to the LD trains.

 

[neroden]

If the A-T continues to operate at capacity, even with reduced amenities, then it's not a question of getting more passengers. And we know the consist size is fixed.

The key is to make sure that the consist size is NOT fixed.

Railroads are all about economies of scale. The most obvious version of this is train length. If the A-T is operating at capacity with reduced amenities -- despite a fairly substantial number of regular passengers permanently cancelling their trips, anecdotally -- that means the right solution is MORE CAPACITY.

I did read something which said that CSX was open to relaxing the arbitrary 50-car limit. And I read something else indicating that Amtrak was doing energy efficiency retrofits in hopes of relaxing the train length limit based on HEP capacity. So those are both good signs. Tack on another sleeper and another coach, and you may (or may not) need the extra lounge back.

 

[neroden]

I'm surprised that lighting was the focus of the power saving program since you would think the HVAC hardware is responsible for the vast majority of power usage and would have had the greatest possible impact if replaced with a more modern and efficient design.

Apparently in most houses with incandescent bulbs, lighting is a solid 50% of electricity usage. It's probably less in the train, but still...

Amtrak was using incandescents. I suspect that the lighting was the biggest single load, at least during the day.... maybe not at night!

The other thing is that the improvement is massive. Switching from incandescents to LEDs removes *90%* of the electricity usage from lighting. (If you haven't switched to LEDs in your home, do it now.)

HVACs haven't improved that much. Modern HVAC would remove, optimistically, about 50% of the electricity usage from HVAC. Significant, but not as big a win as LED lighting.

The lighting is the biggest, quickest win, so you do it first.