Amtrak's New "Fresh Choices" Dining on CL & LSL

[jis]

In this case availability of money is not the issue. Being compliant with a statute on the books is. The statute specifically says zero net loss in F&B by 2020.

Now the last time this sort of a thing came up, Mr. Warrington was stuck trying to bring Amtrak to the "glide slope to profitability", and I can only speculate what Mr. Anderson would have done with that statute. So like Warrington back then Anderson could have just ignored the whole thing and carried on merrily. I guess he is not that kind of a guy, and the Board hopefully knew who they were hiring for what purpose. Which leaves me wondering sometimes, what the Amtrak Board actually wants Amtrak to be.

Quite intriguing really.

 

[seat38a]

Why does it have to be either/or? Amtrak should be taking care of their equipment,

Are you seriously asking this question?

Where's the money????

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/03/21/amtrak-gets-nearly-2-billion-federal-spending/447301002/

And notice from the article that the funding isn't for use wherever and whenever you feel like.

$1.3 billion for the long-distance network (HIGHLY likely a big chunk of it comes with condtions)

$650 million to Amtrak for the Northeast Corridor (NEC)

$250 million to help railroads install automatic-braking technology

 

[chrsjrcj]

Why does it have to be either/or? Amtrak should be taking care of their equipment,

Are you seriously asking this question?

Where's the money????

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/03/21/amtrak-gets-nearly-2-billion-federal-spending/447301002/

And notice from the article that the funding isn't for use wherever and whenever you feel like.

$1.3 billion for the long-distance network (HIGHLY likely a big chunk of it comes with condtions)

$650 million to Amtrak for the Northeast Corridor (NEC)

$250 million to help railroads install automatic-braking technology

And part of that $1.3 bn covers F&B loses.

 

[lordsigma]

I don't think its impossible to make the diners work if run as a for-profit business outsourced to an operator. You let the operator decide how to run it - sit down style, take out style with the option of eating food at a table or to go (in your seat or sleeper) sort of like a cafe car but with more (and fresher) options. Maybe it isn't the traditional "dining car experience" but you have a captive audience of riders on the train and if you make it contemporary and desirable thing that people want to come to then they will come - they will have no where else to eat. When I say decouple from sleeper tickets I do not mean that it has to be the dining car experience of today, they do need to be creative, but I don't think cold box meals are necessarily the only thing that can work.)

Ahem, this was called the Subway debacle. The unions made sure it never got rolling. No private operator would touch the dining car operation if it had to be at union scale anyways.

Never heard about this, what happened with that?

 

[Ryan]

This may be a trade I can deal with if all of the whiners that eternally claim that they are going to stop riding actually do so, and stop posting here in the process.

AMEN! Thank you!!

Yes, let us hope and pray that everyone who sees a flaw in Amtrak simply gives up and leaves rather than mention it where some straw man stuffing apologist might see it.

That is not at all what I am advocating, thanks.

 

[lordsigma]

Why does it have to be either/or? Amtrak should be taking care of their equipment,

Are you seriously asking this question?

Where's the money????

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/03/21/amtrak-gets-nearly-2-billion-federal-spending/447301002/

And notice from the article that the funding isn't for use wherever and whenever you feel like.

$1.3 billion for the long-distance network (HIGHLY likely a big chunk of it comes with condtions)

$650 million to Amtrak for the Northeast Corridor (NEC)

$250 million to help railroads install automatic-braking technology

Doesn't part of the 1.3 billion for the National Network go towards state-supported service? My understanding was that this goes to both business lines and includes both operational subsidies and capital spending.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I don't remember the details but it was going to be a Subway restaurant on one of the corridor trains. I'm not sure how it was going to be stocked, staffed, etc.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks outsourcing amtrak F&B would work. First of all... what kind of company would do it? There's no way to make a profit. You can't pay someone $2 an hour + tips and expect them to work an amtrak LD schedule. Who's gonna do that? So then you are paying staff a decent wage... which amtrak already does. There really isn't any other ways to cut significant costs... so where does the savings come from?

 

[lordsigma]

The F&B statute on the books should go though - while I am all about trying to make things more efficient, this statute essentially makes outright cuts like this the only option. The idea that any part of Amtrak can be 100% profitable and not lose money is not feasible. Rail is subsidized everywhere (as are by the way all forms of travel.) The idea that the NEC is profitable is in reality a farce once you throw in the capital side of things and count the costs that they assign for it to LD trains. Should they be losing 3 millon dollars on F&B on these trains? Maybe not, but I also don't personally believe that means a zero loss is feasible or that it has to be the answer. The trains are subsidized to provide a public service - they can't and should not be expected to be profitable as long as they arent' downright wasteful. Also when I think about some of the other crazy stuff that the government spends money on the F&B loss at Amtrak really doesn't bother me and at least its providing a service people use, rather than the billions of dollars we dump on military hardware (some programs of which are mainly to keep certain members of Congress happy.)

With some of the answers people have given I do see why outsourcing would probably not work.

 

[districtRich]

I wish people would understand that if most of America knew that we were getting a freshly cooked steak for dinner and scrambled eggs in the morning on the train that was subsidized by tax dollars that this all would have been cut long ago. Believe it or not this actually is about transportation and not elaborate meals. Amtrak is nearly covering their operating expenses in 2018 and this is with all the "cuts" and "service reductions" over the past few years and ridership is higher than ever so they apparently are doing something right.

 

[Ryan]

And part of that $1.3 bn covers F&B loses.

Not after next year.

 

[Bob Dylan]

No need to add Food Service staff to provide HOT ( heated) food in the First Class Lounge Car.

IINM the Cardinal,City of New,Orleans,LSL and the Starvation ( No Diner, just Cafe) currently run without a Chef with OBS serving as LSA,Wait Person and "Cook".

I see no reason why the New "Yard Queen" VL Dinners can't be used as the First Class Food Service Car and Lounge and serve Hot and Cold Food Options similar to how the Pacific Parlour Cars used to operate with One Attendant.

In the case of adding extra Sleepers and Full Loads,and on the 2 Night Western LD Trains, 2 attendants could be used like in Acela First Class!

 

[Larry H.]

If the "first class lounge" is a x diner won't that be just lovely. About as nice as the ridiculous amfleet diners as lounges on the LSL. My guess is most of the people in charge never rode in a first class lounge, which used to be on nearly every name train worth riding. Just a clue, it wasn't a bunch of booths lined on the walls. It was as nice as anyones living room with fancy sofas and chairs, writing desk, book cases, free post cards and often a small bar with attendant.

And I totally disagree with the view expressed that the main thing is getting somewhere and a diner shouldn't be a consideration. When you pay the kind of fare they want for a several day trip you should have something more than a cold sandwich to eat.

And since the last post I wrote my congressman a long note about what I thought of their law that is destroying food service on board the trains. I told him there are a lot of very angry customers who expect more from congress than denying decent food. Along those lines it just occurred how much they spend just trying to get people on food stamps, but nothing for tax payers who are paying for them.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Ahem, this was called the Subway debacle. The unions made sure it never got rolling. No private operator would touch the dining car operation if it had to be at union scale anyways.

Never heard about this, what happened with that?

Once upon a time, trains that origin at Albany had food service. Amtrak cut the food service, but left the cars on the train. When the food service was cut a local Subway operator try to fill in for the lost of service, by selling product on the train. The union crew did not help, and basically blocked them from selling. Add in a few threats that were reported and the Subway operator end service within a week or so.

 

[Chey]

Yes, let us hope and pray that everyone who sees a flaw in Amtrak simply gives up and leaves rather than mention it where some straw man stuffing apologist might see it.

Apologies, DA, it was callous of me and not a little hypocritical given my kvetching about cancellation penalties about a month ago. I understand that the constant changes are discouraging many who see most or all of them as downgrades. But I will be an Amtrak customer until the day they fold; it's the only form of travel I enjoy. So it's a bit hard for me to understand others who can tolerate other kinds of travel. It was an emotional response and I'm sorry it offended you.

 

[chrsjrcj]

I wish people would understand that if most of America knew that we were getting a freshly cooked steak for dinner and scrambled eggs in the morning on the train that was subsidized by tax dollars that this all would have been cut long ago. Believe it or not this actually is about transportation and not elaborate meals. Amtrak is nearly covering their operating expenses in 2018 and this is with all the "cuts" and "service reductions" over the past few years and ridership is higher than ever so they apparently are doing something right.

How much of this growth can be attributed to state funded trains vs. the national network?

I'm not defending elaborate meals, and I do acknowledge the current F&B system is broken. I don't see what is proposed on the CL and LSL to be a worthy solution though. Rather than expanding revenue opportunities for F&B, Amtrak is cutting their losses.

 

[chrsjrcj]

And part of that $1.3 bn covers F&B loses.

Not after next year.

IMO, I would like to see the following 4 things happen:

1) Hot meals added. At least something equal to what is offered on the Acela Express in FC.

2) Congress repeals the F&B mandate. Considering the additional money Amtrak was granted and the fact that Mr. Mica is out of the House, it might just be possible.

3) Once there are enough Viewliner Diners, expand this program to the Silver Star. It's better than what is currently offered!

4) Better accommodate coach passengers. Maybe the attendant can bring the meal to the seat, similar to programs already trialed on LD trains. They are certainly leaving money on the table by restricting this to sleeping car passengers only.

 

[SubwayNut]

I believe the cafe car on the Downeaster is run by a private catering company employee and not an Amtrak employee.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I wish people would understand that if most of America knew that we were getting a freshly cooked steak for dinner and scrambled eggs in the morning on the train that was subsidized by tax dollars that this all would have been cut long ago. Believe it or not this actually is about transportation and not elaborate meals. Amtrak is nearly covering their operating expenses in 2018 and this is with all the "cuts" and "service reductions" over the past few years and ridership is higher than ever so they apparently are doing something right.

How much of this growth can be attributed to state funded trains vs. the national network?

I'm not defending elaborate meals, and I do acknowledge the current F&B system is broken. I don't see what is proposed on the CL and LSL to be a worthy solution though. Rather than expanding revenue opportunities for F&B, Amtrak is cutting their losses.

This is something I pointed out quite some time ago. Corridor growth comes at the expense of the LD network. Equipment has routinely been diverted from the LD network to state supported services. Of course you're not going to have growth when you're actually constricting the LD business line by making smaller trains.

 

[Big Green Chauvanist]

Why are we rationalizing that coach passengers shouldn't have access to complete meals? Myself and relatives who have taken Amtrak have used the dining car despite taking only a ~6 hour trip in coach. Coach passengers do pay for meals in the dining car. In fact, doesn't Amtrak transfer sleeping car revenue to the dining car based on what sleeping car passengers order?

Coach passengers are currently accommodated in the Diner only after all Sleeper passengers are served. They will be sold meals that remain after all Sleeper passengers are served. The question is what number of meals will be loaded beyond what is needed to serve Sleeper passengers. Other than that, the situation will be exactly like what it is now.

I'd put it a different way. The maître d' goes through the sleepers first and then the coaches to take dinner or lunch reservations. I always ask for the first seating (and travel in a sleeper). On my trip on the Coast Starlight last month, I was seated with some coach passengers at the first seating. So I guess the maître d' felt there would be enough meals for coach passengers BEFORE all sleeper pax were actually served. In other words, first class passengers at a later seating might be at a disadvantage and have been out of luck with their first choice having been "sold out" (since the reservations say nothing about what one will actually order) while coach passengers at an earlier seating would have all gotten their choices. But honestly service in the dining car on that particular trip last month was so bad that in the future I would probably opt to have my meals in the room. Even at the first seating, there was no salad because "we ran of lettuce". Really? And it took literally a half hour between having finished our main course to even be able to order dessert--and that was only AFTER we asked and even at the first seating at dinner a couple of dessert items were already not available!

Time to bring back Harvey Houses at select stations?

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

In my history of being on this forum, I have never seen a thread pile up so fast (and still be on topic!). Let's talk about that paltry breakfast offering. I usually do not eat breakfast unless I am traveling and then I want something relatively substantial. The breakfast offering listed is more in line with light grazing, and since I would likely be more hungry than usual from the not so substantial supper offerings, the overpriced and not-so-healthy cafe offerings may not look so bad after all!

 

[Lonestar648]

You must have been on the return leg. I have found that some items have run out early on the trip. With the trains provisioned for a round trip, this can happen. The TE is one I remember returning to CHI.

 

[Lonestar648]

I too was discussing with someone how the meal service was going to work since the SCA at these times has generally been quite busy, especially with a full car of 40 passengers. I can see the SCA having a carry bag that might hold 10 meals, which they deliver. We couldn't figure out the dinner or breakfast beverages. If the SCA has time he may come by to pick up your meal tray in between delivery of more meals and the start of making down beds, Like mentioned above, the SCA also has boarding duties at many stations. An experienced SCA may be able to balance the duties and keep his passengers happy. I think even with the best SCA, response time will suffer with the SCA running many different directions. Mornings are going to be impossible for the SCAs doing meal service and having every room made up by the time they arrive Chicago. Going East bound will be much better for them, but still troublesome when passengers want their room made up before Breakfast and have breakfast at 7:00 AM. I suspect that the LSA will have to stay in the Sleeper Lounge whenever on duty. Also, what happens to the folks in the Trans dorm if the SCA is overloaded just with their car.

 

[lordsigma]

I wish people would understand that if most of America knew that we were getting a freshly cooked steak for dinner and scrambled eggs in the morning on the train that was subsidized by tax dollars that this all would have been cut long ago. Believe it or not this actually is about transportation and not elaborate meals. Amtrak is nearly covering their operating expenses in 2018 and this is with all the "cuts" and "service reductions" over the past few years and ridership is higher than ever so they apparently are doing something right.

Under that arguement though then basically everything should be cut (sleepers, baggage, etc.) other than coach seating. F&B isn't the only reason the trains lose money. Last I checked the Silver Star still loses a lot of money. Maybe what is being proposed is the answer for these two trains - willing to give it a try. Once again my main point is I don't think this should be a one size fits all thing as every route is different.

 

[pennyk]

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[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I wish people would understand that if most of America knew that we were getting a freshly cooked steak for dinner and scrambled eggs in the morning on the train that was subsidized by tax dollars that this all would have been cut long ago. Believe it or not this actually is about transportation and not elaborate meals.

This goes back to the assumption that transportation and elaborate meals are a package deal and you can't have LD transportation without them. Anderson is trying to disprove that statement, at least on the CL and LSL. If RailwayAge is to be believed and Anderson is trying to slowly kill LD by driving away customers by "cheapening" the product, then if AU and RPA/NARP members actually boycott these trains because there's no steak and eggs then Anderson wins (ridership goes down, Anderson says no one rides them, and there's justification to get rid of them). But if you continue to ride the trains despite "sub-standard food", Anderson also wins because he's proven that you can have LD trains without hot food.

The latest RPA Hotline has more comments about this topic than I've ever seen from a Hotline before and of course this topic has 13 pages of comments. Maybe all this energy and resources can be better spent on saving the trains themselves (and starting some new ones or restarting some old ones) than the food on them.