Amtrak's Marketing Pitch & Degenerating Food Service

[crescent-zephyr]

It should also be noted that VIA Rails Canadian operates very differently from any other train in VIA's system.

 

[niemi24s]

VIA Rail often sells very deeply discounted fares, especially in the winter.

Perhaps they do, but the search done today of all 63 of the days the Canadian runs Westward from Hornepayne to Vancouver from 23 Oct 2016 through 31 May 2017 revealed exactly the same fare of US$2652. Maybe you could keep an eye out for those deeply discounted fares in 3 months or so and let us know when one is posted?

 

[niemi24s]

It should also be noted that VIA Rails Canadian operates very differently from any other train in VIA's system.

I made no comparison between the Canadian and any of the other VIA Rail trains. So what does your comment have to with my comparison of the Canadian with the Empire Builder?

 

[OBS]

Via sales are on Tuesdays, 24 hour sales. Usually for travel in next 30-45 days. Check it out tomorrow.

 

[FormerOBS]

Alexandria Nick:

I don't really see the relevance of your comments about Lemont and State College. I know passenger service to these areas was discontinued in the early 1950's. That's over 60 years ago. There have been no tracks to State College for about a generation. If the tracks to Lemont exist at all, they are certainly in no condition to handle scheduled passenger service. guess Bellefonte could be mentioned too, but the mountainous topography of the area was certainly a factor. Then there is the fact that Bellefonte and Lemont were both on the L&T Branch; and Bellefonte was served by a train on the Bald Eagle Branch; and State College was served directly by the Bellefonte Central Railroad (only). The idea that service could be restored to any of these is, frankly, ludicrous. If anything is possible at all, it might involve service to some point on the Bald Eagle Branch (which is no longer owned by a Class 1 railroad) with connecting bus service to State College. The most practical option is bus service to/from Altoona, which already exists.

The old L&T branch milk train has always been a sentimental favorite of mine, as has been the Bellefonte Central. They exist in memory ONLY. Of all the hundreds of places that need passenger service, this has to be one of the very least likely to get that service any time soon.

Tom

 

[crescent-zephyr]

It should also be noted that VIA Rails Canadian operates very differently from any other train in VIA's system.

I made no comparison between the Canadian and any of the other VIA Rail trains. So what does your comment have to with my comparison of the Canadian with the Empire Builder?

Just a general comment when comparing the Canadian to any Amtrak LD train.

 

[niemi24s]

It should also be noted that VIA Rails Canadian operates very differently from any other train in VIA's system.

I made no comparison between the Canadian and any of the other VIA Rail trains. So what does your comment have to with my comparison of the Canadian with the Empire Builder?

Just a general comment when comparing the Canadian to any Amtrak LD train.

OK, I guess. So what might those differences in operation be?

 

[Alexandria Nick]

Alexandria Nick:

I don't really see the relevance of your comments about Lemont and State College. I know passenger service to these areas was discontinued in the early 1950's. That's over 60 years ago. There have been no tracks to State College for about a generation. If the tracks to Lemont exist at all, they are certainly in no condition to handle scheduled passenger service. guess Bellefonte could be mentioned too, but the mountainous topography of the area was certainly a factor. Then there is the fact that Bellefonte and Lemont were both on the L&T Branch; and Bellefonte was served by a train on the Bald Eagle Branch; and State College was served directly by the Bellefonte Central Railroad (only). The idea that service could be restored to any of these is, frankly, ludicrous. If anything is possible at all, it might involve service to some point on the Bald Eagle Branch (which is no longer owned by a Class 1 railroad) with connecting bus service to State College. The most practical option is bus service to/from Altoona, which already exists.

The old L&T branch milk train has always been a sentimental favorite of mine, as has been the Bellefonte Central. They exist in memory ONLY. Of all the hundreds of places that need passenger service, this has to be one of the very least likely to get that service any time soon.

Tom

That's not even close to the point I was making.

I was pointing out the ridiculousness of saying "pfff they're bragging they serve 500 destinations, but there's 19,000 towns in the US!" Destination doesn't equal CDP. I used State College because I'm very familiar with it and how you can either define it as one town or six towns, that's all. Is that hypothetical station one "destination" or "town?"

 

[tommylicious]

Your mean is still skewed and you don't have enough observations. We booked a 2 bedroom suite for 2 nights on the Canadian for same price as Zephyr, and we won't be eating MCC Corporation cost-minimizing Litchfield prison slop ( http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2015/06/18/18-oitnb-food.w750.h560.2x.jpg) nor have to suffer surly service (when and if any actual service is available....) Point being-- paying customer, fairly decent sized ticket, and we chose to give our money to VIA because of the better food and service reputation:

Back in Post #10 of this thread I attempted to make a comparison between VIA Rail and Amtrak using what I thought were VIA Rail "buckets" to arrive at average fares. Since then, I've discovered what I believe to be VIA Rail's actual "bucket" system as outlined here: https://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/files/media/lecanadien/price_list_en.pdf?ga_pdf=compare-prices It's simply based on peak and off-peak travel seasons (two seasons) and the fare difference between the two is about 33% when fares (including taxes) for two adults in a cabin for two are compared for the same route as before (Hornepayne ON to Vancouver BC). Hornepayne was chosen as that route length differs from that of the Empire Builder by only 0.09%.

Fares were then gleaned from the websites of both rail systems (with those for VIA converted to US$): VIA's peak and off-peak and Amtrak's high and low buckets for two adults in a Cabin For Two (VIA) and a Bedroom (Amtrak). The low, high and (linear) average fares for each and the number of meals served on each are:

• VIA Rail: Low = $3489; High = $4651; Average = $3094; 8 meals

• Amtrak: Low = $918; High = $2060; Average = $1489; 5 meals

VIA serves three more meals than Amtrak, so those two passengers could have a total of six more meals on VIA and the difference between the average fares amounts to $3904 - $1489 = $1605. Making the bold assumption the sleeper accommodations by themselves are somewhat equivalent in value we could further loosely conclude those 6 extra meals on VIA appear to have an average (linear) value $1605 ÷ 6meals = $268 each. And for those preferring a non-linear average, using the geometric mean for each rail systems yields $281 per meal.

 

[tommylicious]

Is this where Amtrak long distance food service is headed? http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2015/06/18/18-oitnb-food.w750.h560.2x.jpg

 

[Blackshirt Husker]

NM.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Oh, brother. I knew I was going to get into trouble mentioning those 19,000 incorporated places. No, I didn't mean that Amtrak needs to stop every five seconds and at all 19,000, and yes, I do realize that they are not all towns and that many are very close to others. I was just trying to point out that there could be many more destinations than just 500 and that Amtrak marketing uses this limited number as if it is something to be proud of.

Let's compromise and say that Amtrak doubled its number of stops and in useful places and at useful times (ok, the times are probably completely impossible). Then they could say "making 1,000 destinations a far better ride" and it would sound much better than just 500.

 

[jis]

But I still don't understand why you think that mentioning that it serves 500 destinations is an undesirable thing.

When e.g. United Airlines says that it serves 78 Domestic destinations and 108 international destinations in 73 countries, do we criticize it for saying so because there are some number of airports >> 78 in the US and there a number of countries y > 73 and international airport z >> 103, and point out that that is nothing to be proud of? Of course more service would be better. but given the resources available and the demand for service and what one can pay for from the revenues (and subsidies) the fact that what is actually served is served is worthy of advertising and informing the public I think, irrespective of what could be served in a more perfect world.

Of course if in some alternate universe it could serve double the number of stations then it could say that it serves that many stations. That is a tautology, so there is nothing to compromise about that. And 1,500 would sound even better than 1,000 too

 

[jis]

Actually IMHO, Amtrak should not be too concerned with the exquisite tastes of those that have the luxury of choosing whether they travel by Amtrak or VIA and have no particular destination in mind. Amtrak as a tax payer funded outfit should be primarily concerned with serving people who are using it for transportation. Their primary goal should be expanding capacity of affordable options and frequency of service, and not gussying up their top class service except perhaps where doing so causes spectacular additional flow of revenues over cost of operation, and does not negatively impact the primary objective of providing larger capacity at affordable costs for most. Amtrak should be serving the 80 or 90 percentile primarily, and that is where their focus should be.

Private operators can either operate their own luxury trains or tack them on for haulage onto Amtrak trains to address the top end of the market.

OK now I think I will duck.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

jis,

I don't fly, so I never pay attention to airline advertising and did not know the numbers they mention.

Compared to the numbers you cite for the airlines, 500 Amtrak destinations is beginning to sound a bit better.

My head is starting to spin from all these numbers and what are towns and what aren't , so I will gracefully give up on this, enjoy traveling to those of the 500 destinations that are reasonable for me and that I am interested in going to, and start advocating for more destinations and more frequency of service when the new CEO arrives at Amtrak .

And, for a luxury trip, take VIA rail across Canada if I ever save up enough money .

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Actually IMHO, Amtrak should not be too concerned with the exquisite tastes of those that have the luxury of choosing whether they travel by Amtrak or VIA and have no particular destination in mind. Amtrak as a tax payer funded outfit should be primarily concerned with serving people who are using it for transportation. Their primary goal should be expanding capacity of affordable options and frequency of service, and not gussying up their top class service except perhaps where doing so causes spectacular additional flow of revenues over cost of operation, and does not negatively impact the primary objective of providing larger capacity at affordable costs for most. Amtrak should be serving the 80 or 90 percentile primarily, and that is where their focus should be.

Private operators can either operate their own luxury trains or tack them on for haulage onto Amtrak trains to address the top end of the market.

OK now I think I will duck.

I totally agree. Amtrak is a transportation company, not a land cruise.

 

[niemi24s]

Your mean is still skewed and you don't have enough observations.

1. What, specifically, causes it to be skewed?

2. What must be done to prevent the mean/average from becoming skewed?

3. How many observations did I make?

4. How many observations is enough observations?

5. Can you provide details of the Canadian and Zephyr fares you made reference to?

 

[niemi24s]

Via sales are on Tuesdays, 24 hour sales. Usually for travel in next 30-45 days. Check it out tomorrow.

Thanks for the pointer to this. I wasn't aware of it. And I did look this morning to see what was available and, unfortunately, none of the routes offered were of sufficient length to make (in my opinion) a good comparison to the Empire Builders route. The longest appeared to by the Halifax-to-Montreal route which is only 836 miles. Oops! Disregard!! Finally poked around and did find discounts on longer routes - all seeming to be within the next 30 days. Too bad Hornepayne is not one of the starting points or a destination. This may take some time to figure out how to incorporate into my previous data. [sigh] Toronto to Jasper is pretty close to the Empire Builder in route length. Hmm-m-m.

BTW, do you know of a source for milepost markers for VIA rail? The only one I've ever uncovered is this... http://canadadetrem.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/1Canadian_Toronto-Vancouver.pdf ...for the Canadian and it gives mileposts starting at zero for each section, making it a bit hard to use without measuring route segments using the Ruler

Tool of Google Maps.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Amtrak should not be too concerned with the exquisite tastes of those that have the luxury of choosing whether they travel by Amtrak or VIA and have no particular destination in mind.

Exquisite tastes? Amtrak is serving precooked frozen food that is falling below the standards of low rung sit down restaurants like Denny's and even some of the fancier gas stations at this point. Which is fine for a few hours, but not for an overnight or multiple day trip.

Amtrak as a tax payer funded outfit should be primarily concerned with serving people who are using it for transportation.

Back when Amtrak was offering chef-inspired meals and sous-vide cooking I felt like they were primarily concerned with serving the needs of travelers. Now they appear to be primarily concerned with sucking up to Congressional bully's and bean counters. Which is perfectly understandable, all things considered, but so is the criticism it brings from previous travelers.

Their primary goal should be expanding capacity of affordable options and frequency of service, and not gussying up their top class service except perhaps where doing so causes spectacular additional flow of revenues over cost of operation, and does not negatively impact the primary objective of providing larger capacity at affordable costs for most.

Amtrak has been reducing and degrading their amenities and service standards for several years now. Has any of that resulted in extra capacity and frequency yet?

 

[Bob Dylan]

Think you nailed it Chris!

 

[MARC Rider]

Amtrak should not be too concerned with the exquisite tastes of those that have the luxury of choosing whether they travel by Amtrak or VIA and have no particular destination in mind.

Exquisite tastes? Amtrak is serving precooked frozen food that is falling below the standards of low rung sit down restaurants like Denny's and even some of the fancier gas stations at this point. Which is fine for a few hours, but not for an overnight or multiple day trip.

Amtrak as a tax payer funded outfit should be primarily concerned with serving people who are using it for transportation.

Back when Amtrak was offering chef-inspired meals and sous-vide cooking I felt like they were primarily concerned with serving the needs of travelers. Now they appear to be primarily concerned with sucking up to Congressional bully's and bean counters. Which is perfectly understandable, all things considered, but so is the criticism it brings from previous travelers.

Their primary goal should be expanding capacity of affordable options and frequency of service, and not gussying up their top class service except perhaps where doing so causes spectacular additional flow of revenues over cost of operation, and does not negatively impact the primary objective of providing larger capacity at affordable costs for most.

Amtrak has been reducing and degrading their amenities and service standards for several years now. Has any of that resulted in extra capacity and frequency yet?

1) While the quality and selection of the food being offered in the dining cars has decreased, I disagree that it's worse than that offered by the "fancier gas stations," whatever that means, exactly. The major problem is the lack of selection, especially if you;re taking a multi-day trip.

2) "Chef-inspired sous vide cooking" is more or less the same thing as "precooked frozen food." Either "meets the needs of travelers" taking long-duration rides, which is (a) maintaining blood sugar levels and (b) providing entertainment and distraction. You still get the entertainment value of being served while watching the countryside go by and getting to meet fellow travelers even if the meal is not Michelin 3 star quality.

3) Every transportation company I know of has been reducing and degrading their amenities and service standards. Apparently such things are not necessary to the bottom line. Amtrak ridership ridership has been increasing over this period and the financials seem pretty stable, too. Maybe Amtrak hasn't been able to increase frequencies or capacity, but they also have been keeping things running pretty well in a rather hostile political climate.

 

[niemi24s]

That wasn't as difficult as I thought it would be. Using the new (lower) VIA special deal fare for an almost equal route as the Empire Builder's 2205 miles (the Canadian's from Toronto to Jasper of 2237 miles) lowers the previously calculated cost/meal on VIA (using simple averages) from $430 to $312 and (using geometric means) from $435 to $205.

Bear in mind I'm not saying a VIA Rail meal is actually worth $200 or more. It's simply the only way I now know of to logically quantify and compare without resorting to "barf, puke, gag, yukk" opinionated flapdoodle. Anybody who knows a better or, if nothing else, different way to quantify the subject - please please be good enough to share it with me.

 

[tommylicious]

Read the first 2 chapters of any basic college statistics text.

Your mean is still skewed and you don't have enough observations.

1. What, specifically, causes it to be skewed?

2. What must be done to prevent the mean/average from becoming skewed?

3. How many observations did I make?

4. How many observations is enough observations?

5. Can you provide details of the Canadian and Zephyr fares you made reference to?

 

[jis]

Amtrak as a tax payer funded outfit should be primarily concerned with serving people who are using it for transportation.

Back when Amtrak was offering chef-inspired meals and sous-vide cooking I felt like they were primarily concerned with serving the needs of travelers. Now they appear to be primarily concerned with sucking up to Congressional bully's and bean counters. Which is perfectly understandable, all things considered, but so is the criticism it brings from previous travelers.

All that I can say is it is all de ja vous all over again. Heard the same song and dance when Amtrak went to sous-vide too. not much different.

Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I don;t see much that is unique in the cycle of opinions. I guess everything goes through the five stages.

But, until the nation decides that it wants to actually fund a viable system it is all just a few of us whistling in the wind that is not heard by anyone, more or less.

And when proper funding happens, I expect it should be focused on higher capacity, higher frequency and adequate food, which to me implies reasonable food predominantly in a cafe/buffet setting rather than a full service Diner setting, since truly higher capacity cannot be served in a full service Diner setting without sacrificing too much capacity. I suspect there will be select trains with Diner Service, but the norm would be trains with Cafe/Buffet service, specially on routes with multiple frequencies, allowing the use of additional capacity instead of loading up the train with additional non-rev cars.

In some sense, keeping the LD system artificially non-viable could be a strategy for keeping all trains with Diners. but that would be a bad idea from the fulfillment of the primary goal of providing maximum capacity and frequency of service perspective.Even in the heyday of railroading, the trains that made the most money were not the luxury trains.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

1) While the quality and selection of the food being offered in the dining cars has decreased, I disagree that it's worse than that offered by the "fancier gas stations," whatever that means, exactly. The major problem is the lack of selection, especially if you;re taking a multi-day trip.

If you're not sure what something means then how can you be certain you actually disagree with it? I've already singled out Denny's, Buc-ee's, and the AT&T Center as specific examples of chain restaurants, fancy gas stations, and generic sports stadiums that substantially exceed Amtrak's current food offerings earlier in this thread. Lack of selection is definitely a problem but it's not like the few items they do offer represent the top of their culinary class. Which is why Amtrak is also substantially worse than other limited menu options like food trucks and event booths.

2) "Chef-inspired sous vide cooking" is more or less the same thing as "precooked frozen food."

That's precisely what I assumed prior to introduction. It seemed to take Amtrak forever to finally introduce their chef-inspired meals to the LD network, but once I had a chance to try them I was pleasantly surprised and eventually won over to seeing the benefits. The chef-inspired meals were genuinely tasty and held up surprisingly well during the precooking, freezing, and reheating process. Today's menu options are back to tasting every bit as bland and stale as "precooked frozen food" would imply.

Either "meets the needs of travelers" taking long-duration rides, which is (a) maintaining blood sugar levels and (b) providing entertainment and distraction. You still get the entertainment value of being served while watching the countryside go by and getting to meet fellow travelers even if the meal is not Michelin 3 star quality.

I can't think of anything more entertaining and distracting than a tiny little menu with one single selection for Soylent Green. It'd be awfully cheap and probably wouldn't require any staff at all. A single vending machine ought to do the trick. Maybe have two options with their own button, one for hot and another for cold? That way everybody wins.