Amtrak relocates to SPUD May 7 (includes old topic)

[jebr]

A second stop for the Twin Cities NW of Mpls would be a good idea, especially one that merries up with the northstar commuter line.

A second stop for the Twin Cities would be pointless. A better option would be to extend Northstar Commuter line to SPUD.

While extending the Northstar to SPUD would be a good option, that would have to be accompanied by much more frequent service to be useful to those transferring to Amtrak. Going east to Chicago the connection would work, but those arriving at that time would not have service out on the Northstar currently, and no one coming in or departing on 7/27 would have service.

Putting a second stop in Fridley or Coon Rapids (or maybe Anoka?) right at the Northstar stop would be a much easier option than extending the Northstar, and it would still allow free parking for Amtrak customers that want to arrive by car. The station is there with overnight parking set up already. All the train needs to do is stop and pick up passengers. (There wouldn't be checked baggage, but with Amtrak's current lax policy with carry-ons a Northstar connection would lead to the same luggage scenario.)

 

[Observer]

The Empire Builder is already prone to so many delays that they aren't going to want to add one more stop when they already have one nearby in St Paul.

Even if Amtrak riders may not get the max benefit from extended Northstar to SPUD, likewise they wouldn't exactly get benefit by placing an additional stop at Fridley/Coon Rapids/Mpls "Interchange", given the difference of when the trains make their stops.

The intent of the Union Depot's restoration is to act as a transit hub. It's pure folly that the Northstar connects to neither St Paul nor St Cloud, which directly hampers the line's usefulness and ridership. The only way to get a return on the $250 million investment is to connect trains to it.

 

[Nathanael]

The money quote is: "The commissioners called that good news, but they acknowledged they had previously expected the passenger line to arrive in the fourth quarter of last year." These are the commissioners who were running the project (it isn't as though being a Ramsey County commissioner is a full-time job). They obviously completely dropped the ball in the years that the depot was being restored at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars, not bothering to make sure that the train station could, in fact, receive trains when it reopened. Makes me ashamed to be represented by them. Heck, the bicycle repair shop hasn't even opened yet. I guess I should feel grateful we have the world's largest lite-bright.

Oh, they did OK. When you remember that this required negotiation with Union Pacific, which has gotten an infamous reputation, a year's delay doesn't seem too bad.
It's actually bizarre that UP is even involved -- the trains leave for CP on the west and BNSF on the east -- but the track ownership pattern in that area is completely stupid for historical reasons.

Regarding Northstar, it was cut back to Big Lake by the Bush administration "cost-effectiveness" bull, which was quite deliberately biased against better projects. I consider that outright sabotage of the project, and it really does need to go to St. Cloud.

Ramsey County is still trying to get commuter service on the so-called "Red Rock Corridor" to Hastings, and for some reason the plan is to extend that through SPUD to Minneapolis as the "express" Minneapolis-St. Paul train. That's been going exceptionally slowly for some reason.

 

[WICT106]

It's actually bizarre that UP is even involved -- the trains leave for CP on the west and BNSF on the east -- but the track ownership pattern in that area is completely stupid for historical reasons.

Regarding Northstar, it was cut back to Big Lake by the Bush administration "cost-effectiveness" bull, which was quite deliberately biased against better projects. I consider that outright sabotage of the project, and it really does need to go to St. Cloud.

A couple little points:

1. I think you meant to type that the trains leave for BNSF to the west, & CP to the eastward.

2. Concur with your statements regarding having the Northstar Rail ending in Saint Cloud. It will be better to end in a metro area of over 100 000 residents vs. ending the line in the middle of nowhere (Big Lake).

 

[Train Rider]

A second stop for the Twin Cities NW of Mpls would be a good idea, especially one that merries up with the northstar commuter line.

A second stop for the Twin Cities would be pointless. A better option would be to extend Northstar Commuter line to SPUD.

One doesn't cost a ton of money and has a better chance of happening than the other. Metra and Amtrak in Chicago share several station stops so sharing a Northstar platform is not a novel idea. Downtown St. Paul might as well be the moon to the western side of the Twin Cities metro area.

 

[Observer]

A second stop for the Twin Cities NW of Mpls would be a good idea, especially one that merries up with the northstar commuter line.

A second stop for the Twin Cities would be pointless. A better option would be to extend Northstar Commuter line to SPUD.

One doesn't cost a ton of money and has a better chance of happening than the other. Metra and Amtrak in Chicago share several station stops so sharing a Northstar platform is not a novel idea. Downtown St. Paul might as well be the moon to the western side of the Twin Cities metro area.

Amtrak isn't going to add an additional stop in Fridley or Minneapolis. It's just not going to happen. Period

And Minneapolis is also the moon compared to the Eastern Suburbs. Plus, Saint Paul has the better train station.

Amtrak sharing a stop with North Star just doesn't serve much (if any!) purpose.

 

[Train Rider]

Amtrak shares with Northstar not because of how Northstar can serve the line, but because new station infrastructure would not have to be built.

As crappy as the Midway Station was, it offered advantages that SPUD does not such as easy access off of I-94 between the two downtowns, as well as free parking. What will always be a disadvantage to train travel is that stations are fixed points in a mobile society and elevating the inconvenience to the potential train traveler such as parking costs and distant locations put Amtrak off of many people's radar as an option.

A platform station doesn't do major things and its not at all sexy to the trainiacs lusting over a Northstar extension that won't happen. What it does do is provide an option and eliminate some inconvenience to a large population base that has been introduced to train travel via the Northstar line.

The best thing about using an existing platform is that Amtrak can try it and if it doesn't work out than it can be dropped. Not everything regarding train expansion needs to involve multi-million projects where politicians get to cut a ribbon.

 

[Train Rider]

Amtrak shares with Northstar not because of how Northstar can serve the line, but because new station infrastructure would not have to be built.
As crappy as the Midway Station was, it offered advantages that SPUD does not such as easy access off of I-94 between the two downtowns, as well as free parking. What will always be a disadvantage to train travel is that stations are fixed points in a mobile society and elevating the inconvenience to the potential train traveler such as parking costs and distant locations put Amtrak off of many people's radar as an option.

A platform station doesn't do major things and its not at all sexy to the trainiacs lusting over a Northstar extension that won't happen. What it does do is provide an option and eliminate some inconvenience to a large population base that has been introduced to train travel via the Northstar line.

The best thing about using an existing platform is that Amtrak can try it and if it doesn't work out than it can be dropped. Not everything regarding train expansion needs to involve multi-million projects where politicians get to cut a ribbon.

 

[Observer]

Saint Paul isn't a "distant location"... it is central city for the entire Eastern Twin Cities and a hub of economic and government activity. SPUD served as the "main" train station for the entire Twin Cities region for many many decades. It won't be successful unless people are able to actually use it as an intermodal hub, as it was in the past for the entire metro area.

I just don't see the cost-benefit analysis working out to place an additional stop in Minneapolis on the Empire Builder at this point. Would an additional stop to board a few more people in Fridley make Amtrak money? Would the additional delay on a train that already regularly runs behind schedule be worth it? Does it make sense to stop in Fridley, then stop in the Midway to add additional cars?

Perhaps if we had an exclusive train that goes between MSP-MIL-CHI you would have a point. But adding another stop on the Empire Builder simply isn't realistic at this point.

 

[jebr]

Saint Paul isn't a "distant location"... it is central city for the entire Eastern Twin Cities and a hub of economic and government activity. SPUD served as the "main" train station for the entire Twin Cities region for many many decades. It won't be successful unless people are able to actually use it as an intermodal hub, as it was in the past for the entire metro area.
I just don't see the cost-benefit analysis working out to place an additional stop in Minneapolis on the Empire Builder at this point. Would an additional stop to board a few more people in Fridley make Amtrak money? Would the additional delay on a train that already regularly runs behind schedule be worth it? Does it make sense to stop in Fridley, then stop in the Midway to add additional cars?

Perhaps if we had an exclusive train that goes between MSP-MIL-CHI you would have a point. But adding another stop on the Empire Builder simply isn't realistic at this point.

While I agree that SPUD should be our intermodal hub, I also think that there are plenty of people who take the train in part because of the free parking. SPUD, as far as any of us know, won't have that. Having a stop in Fridley (for example) would give the option for free parking, assuming Metro Transit would be keen to the idea (as more spots would need to be dedicated.)

Historically, there's been more than one station in the MSP area. Some were used by different railroad companies, but while SPUD may have been the main one, it certainly wasn't the only one. Adding an additional stop does take time, but I can't see it adding more than 5-10 minutes to the schedule, which is pretty small in the scheme of things if it will add customers. I'm not sure how it would lose money for Amtrak on any regular basis. Maybe they'll have to negotiate with Metro Transit on a price, but maybe Metro Transit will allow it for minimal cost. There wouldn't need to be any staff there - make it a stop like Staples or Detroit Lakes where the station is unstaffed. The only "cost" would be the time, which seems pretty small in comparison to the advantage it could have in keeping people on the train.

Even if SPUD became the intermodal center, the EB's schedule (7/27) aligned with Metro Transit's schedule could make for bad results for anyone relying on service outside of the core. The train, on a good day, gets in around 10:30-11 PM. Just yesterday the train was aruond an hour and a half late. Very few buses run at that time of night, which leaves only the option of parking at the station. Even if, somehow, the EB was never late coming in, there's still the convenience of a one-seat ride, instead of a transfer somewhere. Adding that additional transfer or paying for parking would have at least some people reconsider the train and look at the airlines instead. The EB costs about the same as the airlines for a ticket from MSP to CHI, and it's twice as fast, even taking into account TSA woes.

 

[NW cannonball]

It's actually bizarre that UP is even involved -- the trains leave for CP on the west and BNSF on the east -- but the track ownership pattern in that area is completely stupid for historical reasons.

Regarding Northstar, it was cut back to Big Lake by the Bush administration "cost-effectiveness" bull, which was quite deliberately biased against better projects. I consider that outright sabotage of the project, and it really does need to go to St. Cloud.

A couple little points:

1. I think you meant to type that the trains leave for BNSF to the west, & CP to the eastward.

2. Concur with your statements regarding having the Northstar Rail ending in Saint Cloud. It will be better to end in a metro area of over 100 000 residents vs. ending the line in the middle of nowhere (Big Lake).

About point 1. -- it depends -

For the MSP metro area, yes, trains leave on BNSF to the west, and CP to the east.

BUT - at SPUD - it's roughly the other way around.

West from SPUD the CP "short line" carries Amtrak about 7 miles past the <defunct> Ford Plant spur and through residential neighborhoods to the current Midway Station and another mile-and-a-half west from there before connecting to the BNSF multi-main-lines and on to the far west.

East from SPUD -- oh my -- somehow, after getting across what seems to be UP ROW now - Amtrak will "somehow" get on the CP -- but only through the BNSF controlled Hoffman interlocking - the biggest and most complicated one in this metro area - and on to the CP-BNSF joint line from Hoffman to the eastward. The two main tracks all the way to Hastings -- one is owned and maintained by CP, one by BNSF, but both, and Hoffman, are dispatched by BNSF.

BUT -- that's only a small bit of the complexity - especially east from SPUD. And the history -- there "used to be" many more railroads through the "near eastward" from SPUD - enough.

so I think Nathaniel's point

It's actually bizarre that UP is even involved -- the trains leave for CP on the west and BNSF on the east -- but the track ownership pattern in that area is completely stupid for historical reasons.

Is basically correct.

Yup - historical reasons --

I think that here in MSP - and a lot of other places - a team of at least 4 grad students - in - say - Transport Law, Transport Economics, History, and Urban Planning -- could get a shared thesis out of this case study. :unsure:

 

[jphjaxfl]

Saint Paul isn't a "distant location"... it is central city for the entire Eastern Twin Cities and a hub of economic and government activity. SPUD served as the "main" train station for the entire Twin Cities region for many many decades. It won't be successful unless people are able to actually use it as an intermodal hub, as it was in the past for the entire metro area.
I just don't see the cost-benefit analysis working out to place an additional stop in Minneapolis on the Empire Builder at this point. Would an additional stop to board a few more people in Fridley make Amtrak money? Would the additional delay on a train that already regularly runs behind schedule be worth it? Does it make sense to stop in Fridley, then stop in the Midway to add additional cars?

Perhaps if we had an exclusive train that goes between MSP-MIL-CHI you would have a point. But adding another stop on the Empire Builder simply isn't realistic at this point.

Having lived in the Twin Cities for a number of years and riding many train into the Twin Cities, pre Amtrak, all trains stopped at both St Paul Union Depot and Minneapolis Great Northern Depot or Minneapolis Milwaukee Depot except for Minneapolis and St. Louis Railroad trains which originated at the Minneapolis Great Northern Depot. Great Northern Depot in Minneapolis was used by trains of the Burlington, Great Northern, Northern Pacific, Chicago and Northwestern, Chicago Great Western and Minneapolis and St. Louis. Milwaukee Road Depot(which is now a hotel) was used by Milwaukee Road, Rock Island and Soo Line. Both Great Northern and Northern Pacific had their own rail lines between Minneapolis and St. Paul, but they had to back into St. Paul Union Station. Burlington and Northwestern trains used the Great Northern line from Minneapolis to St. Paul and also had to back into St. Paul Union Station. Soo line had their own line from Minneapolis to St. Paul which took a more northerly route than GN or NP. All passenger trains of the Milwaukee, Rock Island and Soo Line used Milwaukee Road's Minneapolis and St. Paul line partially used by the Empire Builder today. When Amtrak started, the number of passengers boarding trains from Minneapolis was higher than at St. Paul which is why Amtrak chose to use Minneapolis' Great Northern Station as their station for the Twin Cities. Amtrak trains going to Chicago used the former Great Northern rail line from Minneapolis to St. Paul and completely by passed St. Paul Union Depot. Unfortunately, BN sold the beautiful Great Northern Depot in Minneapolis which is where the Federal Reserve Bank is now located. The new St. Paul Midway station was built on the Minnesota Transfer railline which connects BNSF's (former NP) line with CP's (former Milwaukee line). I would say that very few people in Minneapolis and western suburbs will travel to St. Paul Union Depot to take the train. They are more likely to go to the airport and fly.

 

[Guest]

When Amtrak started, the number of passengers boarding trains from Minneapolis was higher than at St. Paul which is why Amtrak chose to use Minneapolis' Great Northern Station as their station for the Twin Cities.

I don't believe that was a true factor in Amtrak's decision to use the Great Northern Station. SPUD was several times larger than the Great Northern Station, requiring greater maintenance expenses, and by the 1970s SPUD was in need of a renovation. Amtrak understandably couldn't make the business case to use SPUD at that time.

In fact, in the early 1980s, plans were floated to convert SPUD into a Children's Museum and at that point Amtrak expressed interest in relocating there - even going as far as drawing up plans to do so.

Pre-Amtrak, just about every passenger train that rolled through MSP made a stop at SPUD, per the operating agreements of the day.

 

[Nathanael]

Amtrak shares with Northstar not because of how Northstar can serve the line, but because new station infrastructure would not have to be built.
As crappy as the Midway Station was, it offered advantages that SPUD does not such as easy access off of I-94 between the two downtowns, as well as free parking.

(1) SPUD has huge amounts of parking. I'm not sure if it's all opened yet, but it really does have a lot of parking -- most of the area underneath the train deck, and if I remember correctly some more under the main building. I don't know how much it costs, but there's a lot of it.

(2) SPUD is quite close to exits from I-94 and I-35E going in both directions. Yes, drivers will have to go through a bit of downtown St. Paul, and the routes aren't *simple* thanks to the one-way streets, but it's a short distance and downtown St. Paul never has much traffic congestion.

Stopping the Empire Builder at the Northstar station in Minneapolis would be reasonable except for the need to back in, blocking the wye and the mainline for long periods and adding delays of all sorts; be assured that BNSF would demand substantial improvements in exchange for that.

Unfortunately the line through Monticello and Clearwater (which would allow a straight-through move) was severed some time back. And the line through Willmar (which would also allow a straight-through move) is currently slow, as well as skipping several current stops.

None of the stations on Northstar between St. Cloud and Minneapolis are likely to generate enough ridership to be worth stopping at; they would also require longer platforms (at great expense) for the Empire Builder to use them. I could see a case for stopping at Coon Rapids Foley Boulevard if it is ever built, but only if the extra money was put in for the necessary extra-long platforms.

 

[Ispolkom]

The money quote is: "The commissioners called that good news, but they acknowledged they had previously expected the passenger line to arrive in the fourth quarter of last year." These are the commissioners who were running the project (it isn't as though being a Ramsey County commissioner is a full-time job). They obviously completely dropped the ball in the years that the depot was being restored at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars, not bothering to make sure that the train station could, in fact, receive trains when it reopened. Makes me ashamed to be represented by them. Heck, the bicycle repair shop hasn't even opened yet. I guess I should feel grateful we have the world's largest lite-bright.

Oh, they did OK. When you remember that this required negotiation with Union Pacific, which has gotten an infamous reputation, a year's delay doesn't seem too bad.

Huh? They spent three years rebuilding SPUD, and Lord knows how many years planning, and they didn't get agreement with UP until months after the station opened. How could that be considered competent, especially since the county commissioners (who are also the Ramsey County Railroad Authority) didn't even know they didn't have any agreement.

How can you open a train station that cost a quarter of a billion dollars without any connection to tracks? I'll admit the SPUD debacle isn't as mortifying as the spectacle they made trying to get the Vikings stadium, but as an irritant it's right up there with the water utility telling us a) to conserve water, and b) that they are raising rates because water consumption is down.

 

[Parking]

(1) SPUD has huge amounts of parking. I'm not sure if it's all opened yet, but it really does have a lot of parking -- most of the area underneath the train deck, and if I remember correctly some more under the main building. I don't know how much it costs, but there's a lot of it.(2) SPUD is quite close to exits from I-94 and I-35E going in both directions. Yes, drivers will have to go through a bit of downtown St. Paul, and the routes aren't *simple* thanks to the one-way streets, but it's a short distance and downtown St. Paul never has much traffic congestion.

Depending on what lot you park in and what day(s) of the week the price ranges from $3/day to $20/day.

Under the Headhouse is a heated parking garage, which is also most expensive. I find it to be rather narrow in there, so I only parked there once.

The parking under the train deck has always been reasonably priced. Especially in the winter months when there is snow, I have no qualms about paying to park so that I don't have to scrape my car.

And directly adjacent to the train deck parking is another lot that is exposed to the elements. This also offers the best prices.

There is some whining about the prices.. but they honestly aren't bad at all. Think about it: you are now parking your car in a safer, newer, cleaner location that is under surveillance. Since we are now being provided some level of service whereas in the past we were not, it isn't unreasonable to pay a small fee for parking.

 

[tonys96]

So, I apologize in advance for not reading through the entire thread.

We are to arrive in MSP in mid-August, and have someone meeting us there. Will it be at the new SPUD or still at the old Midway Station?

Thanks!

 

[PRR 60]

So, I apologize in advance for not reading through the entire thread.We are to arrive in MSP in mid-August, and have someone meeting us there. Will it be at the new SPUD or still at the old Midway Station?

Thanks!

You will be arriving at the old Midway station.

 

[Ispolkom]

On Minnesota Public Radio tonight there was an interview with Ortega, the chair of the Ramsey County Board. He claimed that Amtrak will move into SPUD in the beginning of April.

Given that he's the wizard who led this project, where they 1) first restored the station, and then 2) started negotiating with the railroads to actually have trains stop at the depot, I don't give a lot of credit to that prediction. After all, it's 14 months and counting since SPUD "opened."

But don't worry, he's off to bigger and better things. He's spearheaded the county's purchase... of the largest Superfund site in Minnesota. That will work out well, I'm sure.

 

[neroden]

On Minnesota Public Radio tonight there was an interview with Ortega, the chair of the Ramsey County Board. He claimed that Amtrak will move into SPUD in the beginning of April.

Given that he's the wizard who led this project, where they 1) first restored the station, and then 2) started negotiating with the railroads to actually have trains stop at the depot, I don't give a lot of credit to that prediction.

The negotiations were opened by RCRRA a very long time ago. From what I can tell, the railroads basically refused to talk until the track area was under construction, AFAICT because it didn't look "real" to them and they didn't want to bother talking. After they actually started talking, it was several years (correction: I didn't go back and check what year the notes about negotiation start appearing in the records) which is unfortunately typical for the sort of delays the Class Is' bad attitude causes.
Delays caused by negotiations with the Class I Freights are legion. They delayed the Denver commuter rail projects, the Salt Lake City rail projects, the Michigan line improvements (by over a year), the Poughkeepsie-Schenectady improvements (by about a year); CSX delayed an extremely simple project in Syracuse by over 5 years (supposedly they have an agreement now) and Conrail actually prevented another project from happening at all even though it wasn't on their land.

And now, from what I can tell, BNSF is just not bothering to do what it promised because BNSF has other priorities. I'm not sure what happened to BNSF's attitude; maybe Carl Ice is just a jerk.

But don't worry, he's off to bigger and better things. He's spearheaded the county's purchase... of the largest Superfund site in Minnesota. That will work out well, I'm sure.

This one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_Cities_Army_Ammunition_Plant
Pffft. Someone had to clean it up (or the toxins would bleed out to the neighbors), but it's a rather straightforward cleanup. So straightforward they can just hire a contractor to "do it".

You don't really have major Superfund sites in Minnesota, do you. Lucky state!

Take a look at this for a more typical serious problem:

http://www.onondaganation.org/land/olake.html

http://www.dec.ny.gov/chemical/8668.html

Or my mother's home state:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit

http://www2.epa.gov/region8/anaconda-co-smelter

http://www2.epa.gov/region8/silver-bow-creek-butte-area

Or on the Columbia River:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanford_Site

Then there's Gary, Indiana....

 

[Ispolkom]

From what I can tell, the railroads basically refused to talk until the track area was under construction, AFAICT because it didn't look "real" to them and they didn't want to bother talking. After they actually started talking, it was several years (correction: I didn't go back and check what year the notes about negotiation start appearing in the records) which is unfortunately typical for the sort of delays the Class Is' bad attitude causes.

If the project manager isn't taken seriously by his interlocutors, that's the project manager's fault. That's his job. He's paid to bring a project in on schedule, not to make excuses about how mean Class 1 railroads are.

As for other states' pollution, just because we don't have a Butte yet (just wait for Poly Met, though), doesn't mean that the county board can't make a mess of TCAP.

 

[CHamilton]

Latest rumor, from Facebook. No idea how true it is.

I am now hearing May 12 for the Empire Builder's relocation to St. Paul Union Depot.

 

[RRUserious]

The LRT is due to take passengers there on June 14. Not sure which they want first, the depot or the LRT.

 

[NW cannonball]

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[bgiaquin]

Latest rumor, from Facebook. No idea how true it is.

I am now hearing May 12 for the Empire Builder's relocation to St. Paul Union Depot.

even later?! :angry2: :angry2: :angry2: :angry2: