Amtrak heritage cars retirement thread

[Thirdrail7]

Looks like 3 heritage baggage cars are in Wilmington, based from information and pictures from the nec fb group

They would be the cars listed below:

R30A should have the numbers. BTW, I believe you can add 1762, 1731 and 1232 your existing count, R30a.

Additionally, not all delivered bags have been accepted for service at this time and mods are still underway on some of the accepted bags.

They have found new life as training equipment. A lot of the heritage bags are being used as axle count cars. I continue to hope they will keep a few scattered along the NEC repair points for use as rider cars to expedite engine movements. This was done years ago. Keep them until the wheels run off.

BTW, R30A, the 1709 and 1735 remain active but you can scratch the 1160,1162,1163,1204,1711 and the 1754 from your list. the 1248 has its own issue but I doubt you'll see it again.

 

[edjbox]

What are axle count cars?

 

[Thirdrail7]

What are axle count cars?

This small thread should help.

 

[neroden]

Updating R30A's list with ThirdRail's information

As of now, I have active:

1953 ATSF Budd Baggage:

1159, 1161, 1164, 1206, 1237, 1241, 1247, 1248* (probably soon to go)

1955 ATSF ACF Baggage:

1260 (Likely the last ACF car on Amtrak's active roster)

1957 ATSF Budd Baggage:

1230, 1231, 1232

1950 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:

1709, 1754, 1760

1953 ATSF Budd 48 Seat Conversion:

1702-1703, 1705, 1708, 1710, 1714, 1716-1717, 1750, 1761, 1762

1954 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:

1751-1752-1753

1961 UP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:

1701, 1730-1731, 1733, 1735, 1738, 1756-1757

so... 37 or 38 cars.

 

[R30A]

I think you need to delete 1709 from the 1953 ATSF Budd 48 seat conversion line.

 

[neroden]

Why yes, yes I do.

I wonder how long these cars will last in their new service as "axle count cars". I'm honestly surprised the conversions are even functioning at all, since apparently baggage load damaged most of their suspensions.

 

[Thirdrail7]

This looks better and reflects what is still in revenue service.

Updating R30A's list with ThirdRail's information

As of now, I have active:

1953 ATSF Budd Baggage:
1159, 1161, 1164, 1241, 1247, 1248* (probably soon to go)

1955 ATSF ACF Baggage:
1260 (Likely the last ACF car on Amtrak's active roster)

1957 ATSF Budd Baggage:
1230,

1950 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1709, 1760

1953 ATSF Budd 48 Seat Conversion:
1702-1703, 1710, 1714, 1716-1717, 1750, 1761,

1954 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1751-1752-1753

1961 UP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1730-1731, 1733, 1735, 1738, 1757

 

[railiner]

What about other (non-baggage) cars still running? Any heritage diner's or coaches?

 

[neroden]

I don't know which diners are still active, but "most of them".

Apart from baggage cars and dining cars, the remaining cars which predate Amtrak and are still in service are:

4 or 5 Pacific Parlour Cars

1 Great Dome

Metroliner cab cars

some of the "Company Service" cars (I don't know the histories on most of these)

North Carolina owned cars

Most of these didn't go through the Heritage rebuild program specifically so don't technically qualify as Heritage cars, but you were probably curious anyway.

PS. I believe among the Company Service cars, 10020, 10021, 9800, and 10501 are former Heritage cars. 10001 through 10004 are not. I have no idea about 10005, 10400, 10404, and 10405.

And I forgot the Anniversary Train, which has one Heritage ex-sleeper and three Heritage ex-baggage cars.

Oh -- if you haven't looked at On Track On Line's Amtrak Roster, it's my main source of information here.

 

[jis]

As one of the moderators of the OTOL Forum I should point out that for those interested, the On Track On Line rosters can be found at http://on-track-on-line.com/amtrak-roster.shtml

 

[railiner]

I don't know which diners are still active, but "most of them".

Apart from baggage cars and dining cars, the remaining cars which predate Amtrak and are still in service are:

4 or 5 Pacific Parlour Cars

1 Great Dome

Metroliner cab cars

some of the "Company Service" cars (I don't know the histories on most of these)

North Carolina owned cars

Most of these didn't go through the Heritage rebuild program specifically so don't technically qualify as Heritage cars, but you were probably curious anyway.

PS. I believe among the Company Service cars, 10020, 10021, 9800, and 10501 are former Heritage cars. 10001 through 10004 are not. I have no idea about 10005, 10400, 10404, and 10405.

And I forgot the Anniversary Train, which has one Heritage ex-sleeper and three Heritage ex-baggage cars.

Oh -- if you haven't looked at On Track On Line's Amtrak Roster, it's my main source of information here.

As one of the moderators of the OTOL Forum I should point out that for those interested, the On Track On Line rosters can be found at http://on-track-on-line.com/amtrak-roster.shtml

Wow....what a great resource guys....thanks for posting!

So if I read it correctly, the only pre-Metroliner single level coaches still in use are those owned by North Carolina? I believe the ex-KCS cars are considered the last new standard coaches built for any railroad....

 

[Seaboard92]

They are the last single level coaches built I believe. And I think but don't quote me they might have some ex Union Pacific cars. They also own an observation car or used to but haven't operated in Raleigh yard

 

[R30A]

I don't know which diners are still active, but "most of them".

Apart from baggage cars and dining cars, the remaining cars which predate Amtrak and are still in service are:

4 or 5 Pacific Parlour Cars

1 Great Dome

Metroliner cab cars

some of the "Company Service" cars (I don't know the histories on most of these)

North Carolina owned cars

Most of these didn't go through the Heritage rebuild program specifically so don't technically qualify as Heritage cars, but you were probably curious anyway.

PS. I believe among the Company Service cars, 10020, 10021, 9800, and 10501 are former Heritage cars. 10001 through 10004 are not. I have no idea about 10005, 10400, 10404, and 10405.

And I forgot the Anniversary Train, which has one Heritage ex-sleeper and three Heritage ex-baggage cars.

Oh -- if you haven't looked at On Track On Line's Amtrak Roster, it's my main source of information here.

10020,10021, and 10405 are former UP 10-6 Pacific series sleepers, which ended up as Crew Dorms. Most heritage cars had ADA rebuilds. These did not. 9800 and 10005 are both former Metroliners(I suppose you could go either way as to whether they are "Heritage"- Although they did not go through the 1970s-1980s HEP rebuild program). 10501 and 10400 are former Army Hospital cars, like the NCDOT combines, and 10404 is a former baggage car, Probably ATSF(but I have not looked it up).

I don't know which diners are still active, but "most of them".

Apart from baggage cars and dining cars, the remaining cars which predate Amtrak and are still in service are:

4 or 5 Pacific Parlour Cars

1 Great Dome

Metroliner cab cars

some of the "Company Service" cars (I don't know the histories on most of these)

North Carolina owned cars

Most of these didn't go through the Heritage rebuild program specifically so don't technically qualify as Heritage cars, but you were probably curious anyway.

PS. I believe among the Company Service cars, 10020, 10021, 9800, and 10501 are former Heritage cars. 10001 through 10004 are not. I have no idea about 10005, 10400, 10404, and 10405.

And I forgot the Anniversary Train, which has one Heritage ex-sleeper and three Heritage ex-baggage cars.

Oh -- if you haven't looked at On Track On Line's Amtrak Roster, it's my main source of information here.

As one of the moderators of the OTOL Forum I should point out that for those interested, the On Track On Line rosters can be found at http://on-track-on-line.com/amtrak-roster.shtml

Wow....what a great resource guys....thanks for posting!

So if I read it correctly, the only pre-Metroliner single level coaches still in use are those owned by North Carolina? I believe the ex-KCS cars are considered the last new standard coaches built for any railroad....

They are the last single level coaches built I believe. And I think but don't quote me they might have some ex Union Pacific cars. They also own an observation car or used to but haven't operated in Raleigh yard

Yes!

The NCDOT fleet consists of three groups:

The 1965 KCS Pullman fleet which never was Amtrak.

The 1960/1964 UP St. Louis fleet which was Amtrak.

The ~1953 Army St. Louis fleet some of which was Amtrak.

Each fleet was rebuilt from a variety of different configurations, although they were all the same when built, and are largely the same today.

 

[railiner]

I am looking at a photo of one of those KCS car interior's when new....do they still have those 'mosaic' tile floors in them? (Kind of doubt that ).....

 

[R30A]

I'll be on one tomorrow, and will check it out!

That said, I do know that they have been heavily rebuilt many times in the last 51 years.

 

[jis]

Of the Heritage Diners I do like the Timoinsa rebuilds a lot. The others are in various levels of sad shape.

 

[railiner]

Not surprised....very few railcars look as they did that long ago. Some notable exceptions are the original PATCO Lindenwold cars with their open operator's cabs when I rode them in 2014, but I believe they have since been rebuilt...

and the NY MTA R-32 subway cars are only slightly modified, aesthetically speaking....

Those KCS cars in the photo I have looked more like commuter cars than long-haul inside, except for their reclining seats....

 

[Seaboard92]

It really depends on the car seat wise. There are some 52 or 56 seaters and some that are around 70 if I remember correct. Longs tend to get the 52 seat cars. Shorts are in the other

 

[R30A]

The KCS cars have 66 seats, while the UP cars have 56. Both are similar in decoration, although the lighting for the UP cars has been modified, while the KCS cars retain 1950s style commuter lighting (reminded me of the old LIRR diesel fleet/Metro North ACMUs). Flooring in both types is mostly green carpet. The seat frames are of the kind recently installed in Superliners. Both consists last weekend were 4 cars.
Engine- Cafe/Bag- 66 seat coach- 56 seat coach- 56 seat coach

 

[neroden]

OK, any updates to this list?

Former baggage cars believed to be in service, but used only to "make up the axle count":
1953 ATSF Budd Baggage:
1159, 1161, 1164, 1241, 1247, 1248* (probably soon to go)

1955 ATSF ACF Baggage:
1260 (Likely the last ACF car on Amtrak's active roster) -- is this really in service? OTOL doesn't think so

1957 ATSF Budd Baggage:
1230

1950 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1709, 1760

1953 ATSF Budd 48 Seat Conversion:
1702-1703, 1710, 1714, 1716-1717, 1750, 1761,

1954 SP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1751-1752-1753

1961 UP Budd 44 Seat Conversion:
1730-1731, 1733, 1735, 1738, 1757

(addition to original list) "Training cars" (origin unknown):

1762, 1232

-----------
Dining cars believed still in service:

1946 NYC Budd:
8553 -- NY Central 452, Penn Central 4552 -- built Budd 1946, "grill" conversion 1980s

1948 NYC Budd:
8512 -- NY Central 463, Penn Central 4563 -- built Budd 1948 as "grill lounge", quirky non-Temoinsa rebuild in 2000s

1948 CB&Q Budd:
8551 -- CB&Q 194 "Silver Diner" -- built Budd 1948, "grill" conversion 1987, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s
8504 -- CB&Q 195 "Silver Restaurant"-- appears to be sister car to 8551 (it's an educated guess that this is the build date), Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s
8510 -- CB&Q 193 "Silver Cafe" -- (Dailey says built Budd 1958 but I think it's a typo), Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1948/1949 Southern Budd:
8524 -- Southern 3309 -- built Budd 1948
8521 -- Southern 3306 -- built Budd 1949
8558 -- Southern 3307 -- built Budd 1949, "grill" in 1980s

1950 CB&Q Budd:
8502 -- "Silver Cuisine" CB&Q 198 -- built Budd 1950

1950 Southern Pacific Budd:
8528 -- Southern Pacific 10213 -- built Budd 1950
8559 -- Southern Pacific 10210 -- built Budd 1950, "grill" in 1980s
8527 -- Southern Pacific 10212 -- built Budd 1950, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1951 Pennsy former Parlor Car:
8530 -- Pennsylvania Railroad 7143 "Molly Pitcher", Penn Central 7143 -- built Budd 1951 as "parlor car", converted to "galley lounge" in 1973, "cafeteria car" in 1983, Temoinsa rebuild in 2000. Whew. n

1956 CB&Q Budd former coaches:
8531 -- CB&Q 4737 "Silver Bit" -- built Budd 1956 as a coach, converted to dining car 1971, to HEP 1985, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s
8532 -- CB&Q 4739 -- built Budd 1956 as a coach, converted in 1970s to cafeteria car, to HEP 1985, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s

1957/1958 GN and NP Budd:
8550 -- Burlington Northern 1296 -- built Budd 1957, "grill" conversion 1986, non-Temoinsa rebuild in 2000s
8552 -- Northern Pacific 461 -- built Budd 1957, "grill" conversion 1986, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s
8505 -- Northern Pacific 458, later 462 -- built Budd 1957, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s
8507 -- Northern Pacific 463 -- built Budd 1957, Temoinsa rebuild early 2000s
8509 -- Northern Pacific 459 or 460 (Dailey says CB&Q was also involved)-- built Budd 1958

Information from OTOL and Geno Dailey's page (http://www.trainweb.org/amtrakpix/locoshots/heritagediner/HERITAGEDINER.html), plus some comments at various forums.

----
So the very oldest car is #8554 from the NYC, built in 1946.
The oldest cars which seem to have no major modifications are probably #8521 and #8524 -- potential museum candidates?
The ones with the most conversions over their lives are the 1951 Pennsy Parlor Car and the 1956 CB&Q coaches.

Anyway, any updates on which cars have been retired?

 

[Thirdrail7]

Anyway, any updates on which cars have been retired?

The 8528 is finished as a whole car. Additionally, the 1762 and 1232 bags which are not on your list are still active. They found new lives as training cars.

 

[neroden]

Thanks, updated.

If you don't mind my asking, what the heck is a training car? What are they used for training? I'd think that everything about them would be so different from the active cars that they wouldn't be useful for training people on how to operate or maintain the active cars... ???

 

[Thirdrail7]

1231 and 1752 are no longer in revenue service, but will remain active. They have new roles.

 

[Thirdrail7]

OK, any updates to this list?

8559 -- Southern Pacific 10210 -- built Budd 1950, "grill" in 1980s

Another one bites the dust. I expect another dining car retirement prior to the summer.

Thanks, updated.

If you don't mind my asking, what the heck is a training car? What are they used for training? I'd think that everything about them would be so different from the active cars that they wouldn't be useful for training people on how to operate or maintain the active cars... ???

They are good for derailment training, practicing re-railing equipment, new hire a/c training, changing parts etc. They are quite useful.

 

[neroden]

They are good for derailment training, practicing re-railing equipment, new hire a/c training, changing parts etc. They are quite useful.

OK, I guess derailment/rerailment doesn't differ too much from one piece of rolling stock to the next. I'd think the parts would be *wildly* different from modern cars, though. Are there really enough parts similarities to make them useful for that? This Surprises Me.