Cuomo Jumps on Board the Gateway Block 780 NYP South Plan

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jis

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Governor Cuomo has now jumped on board the Block 780 Plan for the development of the New York Penn Station South part of the overall Gateway Plan. This certainly breathes life into the dormant proposal.

Proposal is to add 8 platform track in the so called Block 780 encompassed by 30th and 31st St between 7th and 8th Avenue just south of the current Penn Station.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loc...ghBLIfe2Rml0Jm7qlOmiF9VUeFLJcN6pKeNnWWBdwUDW4

In case you are wondering about the proposed track layout, here is a diagram from the original Gateway document:

http://secondavenuesagas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/GatewayTrackMap.jpg

It shows 7 platform tracks. They will add an 8th track. There is space for it.

Here is a clearer diagram that someone put together based on the one from the original Gateway document:

http://i.imgur.com/FblSo8K.jpg
 
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Governor Cuomo has now jumped on board the Block 780 Plan for the development of the New York Penn Station South part of the overall Gateway Plan. This certainly breathes life into the dormant proposal.

Proposal is to add 8 platform track in the so called Block 780 encompassed by 30th and 31st St between 7th and 8th Avenue just south of the current Penn Station.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loc...ghBLIfe2Rml0Jm7qlOmiF9VUeFLJcN6pKeNnWWBdwUDW4
Gov. Cuomo will be up for re-election in 2022 (for a 4th term (!) ). Will he be able to get this project going in the next 3 years to the point that there's no turning back?
 
Gov. Cuomo will be up for re-election in 2022 (for a 4th term (!) ). Will he be able to get this project going in the next 3 years to the point that there's no turning back?
He doesn't have to do anything beyond get the ball rolling on getting the NY portion of the funding and perhaps the PA NYNJ portion to rolling along. He really does not have to initiate a study from the ground up. Just got to get the EIS off the ground. Of course we will not know whether what will transpire three years from now. But one has got to start somewhere.
 
Yeah, when I first saw this on another website I thought it was a great idea for a new 8 track station on the Westside Freight Line built perpendicular to the NEC where Empire Service trains and the Lake Shore Limited would terminate (retaining the Westside Connection tunnel). Afterall it IS being called the "Empire Station Complex".

It would have eliminated lots of trains going through Penn Station and if a service area was included, it would open up additional space at crowded Sunnyside.

I even thought that the Lake Shore Limited could possibly be equipped with Superliners and that would greatly increase capacity and future-proof the train for greater passengers loads. It would terminate and be serviced here.

Now that I see it is for the same (?) expansion Amtrak was talking about, I got a lot less excited. I think there is a better way for this to be done with a new station on the Westside Freight Line for Empire Service/LSL and a new station south of NYP for Amtrak/NJT.

I would think both will be needed in the near future.
 
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Yeah, when I first saw this on another website I thought it was a great idea for a new 8 track station on the Westside Freight Line built perpendicular to the NEC where Empire Service trains and the Lake Shore Limited would terminate (retaining the Westside Connection tunnel). Afterall it IS being called the "Empire Station Complex".

It would have eliminated lots of trains going through Penn Station and if a service area was included, it would open up additional space at crowded Sunnyside.

I even thought that the Lake Shore Limited could possibly be equipped with Superliners and that would greatly increase capacity and future-proof the train for greater passengers loads. It would terminate and be serviced here.

Now that I see it is for the same (?) expansion Amtrak was talking about, I got a lot less excited. I think there is a better way for this to be done with a new station on the Westside Freight Line for Empire Service/LSL and a new station south for Amtrak/NJT.

I would think both will be needed in the near future.
I can immediately think of a few issues with your proposal:
1. It would complicate connections between the Empire Corridor and Penn Station to have two separate stations, in addition to requiring additional staffing.
2. There is unlikely to be enough room for a full servicing yard at such a location, and even if there was it would again require more employees on addition to no longer allowing the exchange of cars between the Empire Corridor and NEC.
3. Even if there were no more height restrictions, the LSL uses stations with high-level platforms so could not use Superliners, which would be unlikely to even be in service let alone in abundance by the time such a project was completed.
 
There is one really big improvement that if this station expansion is done. It "may" allow for much longer trains to operate NYP and south thru WASH. Did not have time to find the actual proposals. Do remember that an eventual East River tunnels 5 & 6 are part. However 5 & 6 have to wait for water tunnel #3 to be complete so water tunnel #1 can be rehabbed for the crossing alignment of tunnels 5&6 access tracks.

The proposal of Penn south I believe does not allow for access to East rive tunnels 1 - 4 so Amtrak trains using it will need to be set and serviced at WASH or PHL. Probably at first NJT might use the Penn south allowing more space for Amtrak ?

Do not believe Empire trains will be able to access Penn south ?
 
The proposal of Penn south I believe does not allow for access to East rive tunnels 1 - 4 so Amtrak trains using it will need to be set and serviced at WASH or PHL. Probably at first NJT might use the Penn south allowing more space for Amtrak ?

Do not believe Empire trains will be able to access Penn south ?

Even if the current Empire Trains and Amtrak regional trains cannot use Penn SOuth, all of the terminating NJT trains and Amtrak Keystone and Acela trains can. Additionally, if Amtrak orders EMUs/DMus, they can use them and turn in the station.

Finally, it will free up capacity on what is currently tracks 1-4. If you add third rail or if Metro-North purchases new dual modes, the planned Hudson Line train that will not continue to New Haven can lay up there.
 
I can immediately think of a few issues with your proposal:
1. It would complicate connections between the Empire Corridor and Penn Station to have two separate stations, in addition to requiring additional staffing.
2. There is unlikely to be enough room for a full servicing yard at such a location, and even if there was it would again require more employees on addition to no longer allowing the exchange of cars between the Empire Corridor and NEC.
3. Even if there were no more height restrictions, the LSL uses stations with high-level platforms so could not use Superliners, which would be unlikely to even be in service let alone in abundance by the time such a project was completed.

Just to reply to the issues you mention:
1- Amtrak is moving west into Moynahan and some kind of pedestrian connection would be possible I would think.
2- Minor servicing could be done there. The Westside connection would be retained for transfer moves to Sunnyside if needed.
3 - The LSL has used Superliners in the past as far east as Albany. Most stations still have low-level platforms or at least an area that can be used for such. They could be added I suppose if necessary. Double-deckers will be necessary in the future to allow more capacity within the restricted platform lengths.
 
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Just to reply to the issues you mention:
1- Amtrak is moving west into Moynahan and some kind of pedestrian connection would be possible I would think.
2- Minor servicing could be done there. The Westside connection would be retained for transfer moves to Sunnyside if needed.
3 - The LSL has used Superliners in the past as far east as Albany. Most stations still have low-level platforms or at least an area that can be used for such. They could be added I supposed if necessary. Double-deckers will be necessary in the future to allow more capacity within the restricted platform lengths.

I think you should create a separate thread to discuss this fantasy of yours since it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter of this thread [emoji6]
 
Yeah, when I first saw this on another website I thought it was a great idea for a new 8 track station on the Westside Freight Line built perpendicular to the NEC where Empire Service trains and the Lake Shore Limited would terminate (retaining the Westside Connection tunnel). Afterall it IS being called the "Empire Station Complex".

It would have eliminated lots of trains going through Penn Station and if a service area was included, it would open up additional space at crowded Sunnyside.

I even thought that the Lake Shore Limited could possibly be equipped with Superliners and that would greatly increase capacity and future-proof the train for greater passengers loads. It would terminate and be serviced here.

Now that I see it is for the same (?) expansion Amtrak was talking about, I got a lot less excited. I think there is a better way for this to be done with a new station on the Westside Freight Line for Empire Service/LSL and a new station south of NYP for Amtrak/NJT.

I would think both will be needed in the near future.

That would be huge money spent just to accomodate the relatively few Amtrak trains heading upstate. The big problems with Penn are the huge number of commuter trains coming in from Long Island and new Jersey (LIRR and NJT), not to mention they're working on bringing Metro North trains in from Westchester and Connecticut. Amtrak is going to be just fine with the new Moynahan train hall IMO.
 
That would be huge money spent just to accomodate the relatively few Amtrak trains heading upstate.
Cuomo wants to make the Empire Service into a high-speed rail corridor. I would think that means more frequent service than now and an exclusive station for this service makes sense (and avoids the bottleneck crawl into Penn Station). Just a small station built on the Westside Connection but connected to Penn Station. It just seemed like a great idea but this plan is actually nothing new it seems. I guess I gave Cuomo too much credit.

Now if he gets CSX to sell half of the right-of-way to Buffalo . . .
 
Is demolishing a whole city block in Midtown Manhattan actually feasible?
Has been done many times in the past. Witness the original construction of the World Trade Center as a very visible example of that, not to mention the construction of the original Penn Station. Except for one Church of some historical importance the rest of that block is slated for renewal in a big way anyway. It will be interesting to see how they manage to rpeserve the Church and work around it.

Incidentally, Cuomo basically read the 2017 RPA (Regional Planning Association, not Rail Passenger Association ;) ) Report on Hudson Crossing and endorsed the Penn Station South part of it. Here's the document I am alluding to...

http://library.rpa.org/pdf/RPA-Crossing-the-Hudson.pdf

And this document merely picks up the material about Penn Station from various Amtrak and PB documents developed in connection with the Gateway proposal. This is one of the three legs on which Gateway stands and has always been that way ever since Gateway ws conceived. That is why Coscia had no problem standing up and unequivocally agreeing with Cuomo.
 
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I am concerned that one of the landlords will sue to ban construction of the Block 780 expansion--which will delay this process.

Maybe only the northern half of Block 780 gets demolished. (meaning 4 new tracks get built instead of 8) and thus the Bergen Loop option gets eliminated
 
I added the following additional information to the OP so poeple can see it with the original Cuomo announcement post...

In case you are wondering about the proposed track layout, here is a diagram from the original Gateway document:

http://secondavenuesagas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/GatewayTrackMap.jpg

It shows 7 platform tracks. They will add an 8th track. There is space for it.

Here is a clearer diagram that someone put together based on the one from the original Gateway document:

http://i.imgur.com/FblSo8K.jpg
 
I am concerned that one of the landlords will sue to ban construction of the Block 780 expansion--which will delay this process.

Maybe only the northern half of Block 780 gets demolished. (meaning 4 new tracks get built instead of 8) and thus the Bergen Loop option gets eliminated
There is the usual eminent domain process that will have to be followed of course, if necessary. NYC real estate has its own strange ways of handling these sorts of things before it gets to that stage.

What makes you think that the convenient half block of your random speculations will be the one with lesser property acquisition problems than the other one? Are you next going to propose that maybe 8 short platforms could be built at the west end and leave the est end of the block as is because of problems? :D

And what on earth does Bergen Loop have to do with any of this? Haven't you noticed that the announcement is about the NYP South station as a separable project, separate from the new tunnels, and anything west of the river? Naturally it fits in with the tunnel when built since the whole thing was conceptualized together. But even there the conceptualization of the tunnel and NYPS had no relationship to the Bergen Loop. That was an essentially later political add-on by Schumer adding a billion dollars to the overall cost because he want to run high speed trains to Stewart Airport some day. Its existence or not will have little effect on the original Gateway concept.
 
I was saying, that maybe to minimize property acquisition, that only 4 tracks with two island platforms could be built on the northern side of Block 780 closest to the current Penn Station.

A lot of the new trains that are supposed to go to Manhattan will be Bergen County trains. If the Bergen Loop does not get built, though, than fewer tracks and platforms will be needed in Block 780.

Jis, how confident are you that the new hudson tunnels and Block 780 will get built?
 
Cuomo wants to make the Empire Service into a high-speed rail corridor. I would think that means more frequent service than now and an exclusive station for this service makes sense (and avoids the bottleneck crawl into Penn Station). Just a small station built on the Westside Connection but connected to Penn Station. It just seemed like a great idea but this plan is actually nothing new it seems. I guess I gave Cuomo too much credit.

Now if he gets CSX to sell half of the right-of-way to Buffalo . . .

Look at the schedules for NJT and the LIRR and see how many train are arriving in Penn Station. Running an additional AMTRAK train every hour hour upstate is nothing. Your idea is nonsensical for what it would cost.
 
The dissent has already begun...and is coming from multiple fronts:

Don’t get excited about Penn Station plan. It stinks for N.J. commuters, experts say.
https://www.nj.com/traffic/2020/01/...ion-plan-stinks-for-nj-transit-commuters.html

“My initial opinion is that this is a lousy solution, especially for NJT customers,” said Joseph Clift, a former Long Island Rail Road Planning Director. “For the governor’s plan to work, NJT trains must move off tracks 12 to 5 in the center of Penn making NJT passengers mega-losers on access, but winners on station appearance -- a very bad trade.”

That track swap gives the best track real estate to the LIRR and Metro North, he said
Besides putting NJ Transit trains in a dead-end station, rail access to the addition from the existing Hudson River Tunnels will be extremely limited until the Gateway tunnels are built, Clift said.
.

Experts criticized the plan for limiting the addition’s effectiveness.

“It’s not needed at all,” said Jim Venturi, ReThink NYC principal, who favors reconfiguring Penn Station tracks for wider platforms and trains that “run through” between New York’s suburbs and New Jersey.

The ReThink NYC 2050 plan would eliminate some of Penn Station’s 21 tracks, replacing them with wider platforms and more escalators, stairs and elevators. It would increase capacity by having a unified bi-state commuter agency running trains through Penn instead of ending or starting trips there. That 2017 plan also criticized the Penn South plan for limiting usefulness of the dead-end tracks.

Citing increased development in New York’s outer boroughs, including Amazon’s interest in Long Island City, Venturi called the Penn Station addition “an out-of-date way of thinking that mid-town is the only core" of the New York metro region.

“It’s a different world,” he said.


Another concern is financing. Cuomo’s said the project will proceed with or without federal aid, which could come through grants or low-interest loans for Gateway.

“I’m at a loss. The whole thing doesn’t make sense to me,” said Martin Robbins, director emeritus of the Voorhees Transportation Center at Rutgers. “It seems it might be premature to toss (the) Gateway (project) aside.”

He questioned New York’s need for a Penn Station addition when the Metropolitan Transportation Authority is building the East Side Access project that will bring Long Island Rail Road trains to Grand Central Terminal and take some out of Penn Station.

“New Jersey has tremendous need for additional capacity at Penn Station, I don’t know if New York has the same needs,” said Robins, a former NJ Transit director.
 
NY State has already put out a bid for a company to conduct the environmental impact statement for the Block 780 Expansion.

I wonder how many tracks will get built and what the time frame is for construction.
 
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