why are LD trains such heavy money losses?

Until Anderson follows the law and breaks out costs by train we cannot know if they are that beg of a looser.

west point said:

Sorry MARC rider wear on the roads do not come from 4000# cars but the trucks and buses that put 4250# per tire on the roads. Our interstates around here have all the t truck lanes coming apart. The new York State parkways that ban trucks and buses o not fall apart with some that were built just after WW-2. Show me any truck accessible road that remains that pristine ? Note loads on tires wear roads by the 4th power. 4000# to the fourth power is certainly much higher than 1000# to the 4th power.s

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That's why I would advocate for much higher mileage tax rates for heavy trucks. But the cars need to be taxed, too. Their sheer numbers requires that the roads be built with far more capacity than would be needed is highways were only used by commercial vehicles.

I have to strongly disagree with MARC Rider's: "Of course, to be really rational, all of these taxes should just go into the general Treasury fund, and the allocation to highways (or trains, or the military, of NASA, etc.) should by made by our elected representatives, whose job is to reconcile the competing demands of the citizens in a peaceful matter, providing a solution that everyone might not like, but with which they can live."

I don't trust our politician's to fairly perform that function. I believe that money's obtained from highway toll's and usage fee's should entirely be dedicated back into that infrastructure. The same for airport's and other government services that collect their own fees's. Services such as the military, which benefit's everyone, should be funded from income taxes.

I strongly believe that people that use various services should pay for those services, if they are able, and not expect a 'free ride' from other's...
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but after a lifetime of paying taxes to support those that don't and are able to, rich or poor, I can't help those feelings..

My steer axle max out at 12,000 lbs,
6,000 lbs per wheel.
My drive axles and trailer max out at 34,000 lbs, 4,250 lbs per wheel.

People demand instant access, and year round access to products that require transportation to there local businesses. Food, medicine, nails, lightbulbs, etc.

We live in a environment that our founders never could of conceived of, a society that is built on shoulders of our parents, and grandparents.

10-11 years ago the first smart phone come out, game changer. The interstate highway creates your next day deliver of goods from your favorite e-commerce.

I have not used all the government services, that my government can and does provide, but I do support them all. You just don’t know how important something is to your society into people and business adapt to have it available.

To claim that today's military expenditure levels actually benefits all, shows a certain level of naivete in my opinion. There is arguably a level of military expenditure that does, but that is way lower than the current actual level of military expenditure. But all this has little to do with how much it costs to operate LD trains. It may have a bit more to do with where to find the money to fund them. Suffice it to say that if someone is foolish enough to believe that in its infancy a highway system could be built from ground up using gas taxes on non existent or very minimal gas sales, there is little value in wasting time discussing these matter with such.

railiner said:

Services such as the military, which benefit's everyone, should be funded from income taxes.

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I don't agree that the world's most expensive military benefits us more than it harms our interests or that it's worth anywhere near what it costs us to maintain. Incomes are fragile structures that dictate life-and-death decisions and can be revoked at any time, yet we force them to bare the weight of massive government institutions while allowing taxpayer protected corporations to pay little or nothing of their own.

railiner said:

I strongly believe that people that use various services should pay for those services, if they are able, and not expect a 'free ride' from other's...Sorry if that sounds harsh, but after a lifetime of paying taxes to support those that don't and are able to, rich or poor, I can't help those feelings..

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It doesn't sound harsh so much as hypocritical. Your generation enjoyed higher salaries, stronger protections, and greater benefits than any which came before you. Despite a lifetime of relative peace and prosperity you're leaving a barely funded patchwork of steadily decaying benefits and a nearly incomprehensible debt load for those who come after you. Instead of focusing on the big ticket items like military and healthcare spending you're worried about how much someone on food stamps pays back after eating on your dime. It just seems weird to possess unshakable pride in a Dickensian legacy.

railiner said:

I strongly believe that people that use various services should pay for those services, if they are able, and not expect a 'free ride' from other's...

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You can believe that all you want but it’s not how the world works. I think it’s silly that tax dollars go to pay for sports stadiums, but it happens. Others think it’s silly that tax dollars go to national parks, I think that’s a very wise investment. In the end... it evens out.

neroden said:

To pile onto that point, I would like to use the example of Conrail, which was privatized on the cheap to the benefit of privateers and at a cost to the public purse. We should have kept it public.

But the Republican Party has as an article of doctrine "All profits must be diverted into the hands of private billionaires; the government must never make a profit", so Conrail was privatized. It's called "lemon socialism" -- privatize the profits, socialize the losses. It's one of the reasons I detest the Republican Party.

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So how do you really feel?

crescent-zephyr said:

You can believe that all you want but it’s not how the world works. I think it’s silly that tax dollars go to pay for sports stadiums, but it happens. Others think it’s silly that tax dollars go to national parks, I think that’s a very wise investment. In the end... it evens out.

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As Ben Franklin said, ".. We can all hang together, or hang separately."..

We used to operate on the theory of what's Best Overall for the Country is the way to roll!

Now its "Greed is Good!" and "I've got mine buddy, the heck with you!"

There's No Free Lunch!

You guys nailed it. I have family members who brag how they make more on their pensions then they did when they were working. One job entire career, never a worry about healthcare expenses or even loosing a job. Full pension, etc. They lived in a different world then working people nowadays.

Yes, they worked hard but that generation needs to start showing some empathy and work to improve the Country for their kids and grandkids or they will go down as the, “me, me, me” generation. Healthcare, Social Security, Education/Training, and Infrastructure should be non negotiable if we are to continue as one of the worlds leaders.

maybe Amtrak has too much top management.

Two too many and I’m sure we can all name them.

MIRAILFAN said:

maybe Amtrak has too much top management.

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Qapla said:

That's the thing ...

• The Secret Service does not make a profit
• The Military does not make a profit
• The US Highway System does not make a profit
• The Senate does not make a profit
• Congress does not make a profit
• The White House does not make a profit
• Many Government Programs (like those for the poor) do not make a profit

Why are the Post Office and Amtrak singled out and expected to make a profit when they are also Government Services?

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The USPS and Amtrak are highly unionized. For some that is reason enough to hate either or both government agencies.

McLeansvilleAppFan said:

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The USPS and Amtrak are highly unionized. For some that is reason enough to hate either or both government agencies.

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Oh yeah, tell me about it. I've been to two industry conferences in South Carolina where Nikki Haley, then governor, made it a point both times to bash unions and boast that the industry wouldn't have to worry about unions in her state. Her vehemence sort of puzzled in industry guys I talked with later. Event though, sure, they'd prefer not have have to deal with a union contract, they are quite capable of operating unionized factories profitably and other considerations are just as important as unions about where they locate factories. I think it has to do with the fact that the unions are the last source of big money for leftish politicians, and some would like to dry up that money to keep leftish politicians from ever getting elected.

crescent-zephyr said:

You can believe that all you want but it’s not how the world works. I think it’s silly that tax dollars go to pay for sports stadiums, but it happens. Others think it’s silly that tax dollars go to national parks, I think that’s a very wise investment. In the end... it evens out.

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Then you shouldn’t use the highway system because only a small percentage of roads and highways are paid for from user fees. Think of the law enforcement costs alone. Probably half of all policing has something to do with motor vehicles, yet that is never counted as a highway cost.

I don’t believe the long distance trains are money losers, and the losses are due to Amtrak’s accounting and failure to properly exploit ridership opportunities and grow the system. But let’s put this in perspective. Even Amtrak’s skewed accounting shows that the national system costs around half a billion. Let me put that in perspective; one large freeway interchange can cost a billion dollars. For that half billion we get a national rail system, stations, yards, commissaries, shops that employ tens of thousands, provide mobility to underserved rural and urban areas, and reduce our carbon footprint. The idea that many conservatives seem to have that if anything even requires a penny of subsidy it has no merit regardless of its contribution is disordered thinking. We need to adopt the triple bottom line in evaluating profit and loss; economic, social and environmental. By that measure, the long distance trains are incredibly profitable and the system must be expanded.

All long distance trains make money, just not for Amtrak.

nti1094 said:

All long distance trains make money, just not for Amtrak.

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Just to clarify, when you take into account the economic benefit contributed to the many towns and areas they pass through, the network is hugely profitable and returns many times what is spent on overall economic output.

sttom said:

If you want to look at the track record of privatization, look at the UK. The Royal Post Office was sold off at a fraction of it's value and the new owners immediately tripled stamp prices. Their railways have largely not faired any better, especially outside of London. Even some of the train companies around London suck. I've heard Southern Rail be compared to NJ Transit unfavorably. The difference being is NJ Transit is cheaper comparatively. If we did privatize the post office and Amtrak, what we would get is worse service and higher costs in the few areas they'd survive in. All while workers get their pensions raided and pay likely cut.

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Great point! The UK is a poster child for privatization run amuck. The British Rail debacle has led to the highest fares in Europe, horribly overcrowded trains, unreliable service, and the renationalization of the rail infrastructure after failed privatization at great cost to the British taxpayer. This contrasts starkly with Deutsche Bahn in Germany and SNCF in France which provide excellent service as state owned industries.

jis said:

Amtrak is owned by the government but is not really part of it in the sense that the Department of Transportation is. It is only partially funded by the federal government. A vast majority of it is really funded by its users and state governments. The chartering instrument of Amtrak explicitly says that it should be run as a for profit business, which contrary to the best wishes and fantasies of some railfans, sounds way more like a private business than a government department.

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Amtrak is an instrumentality if the United States Government.
Its not as clear cut as that. The courts have determined that Amtrak is an instrumentality of the US Government, and while charged to operate as a for profit business, it is also charged by law with operating a national, passenger rail system.