New Coach Seating Procedure: Long Distance Trains on NEC

Southwest also has something else Amtrak doesn’t have. All the passengers are getting on in one location and all getting off in another. So the staff won’t be searching for someone in the middle of the night who is getting off at an intermediate point.

I’m not the largest fan of the Amtrak seating assignments either but I see why they are needed. And it seams to me the people who run and make a lot of the decisions in the company aren’t familiar with the vast majority of the network outside of corridor land.

crescent-zephyr said:

But let's be realistic... do you want to be woken up at 3 AM by an amtrak attendant offering a free drink coupon to anyone who is willing to move to allow a family to sit together? (which is what I have seen Southwest do). It's a different operation.

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If I could redeem the coupon at 3am, it wouldn't be so bad .

It's a trade off – the occasional possibility of upsetting a handful of passengers by waking them up versus the certainty of subjecting all passengers to an interaction that will annoy many of them and royally **** off some of them. There are ways to minimise the upsets – selectively boarding cars or blocking off seats (which staff already do for their own use) seem like good suggestions.

Seaboard92 said:

Southwest also has something else Amtrak doesn’t have. All the passengers are getting on in one location and all getting off in another. So the staff won’t be searching for someone in the middle of the night who is getting off at an intermediate point.

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Strictly speaking, that's not true. Some people stay onboard Southwest flights at intermediate stops. It is different, though.

There's nothing preventing Amtrak staff from using seat checks to keep track of who's going where, or from giving a passenger who picked an aisle seat a friendly heads up that the guy in the window seat will be getting off at 3am. It's about creating a system that minimises the number of passengers who have a negative experience (of whatever magnitude).

There is no reason this will not work and work smoothly. Each Coach is designated to pax traveling to specific destinations, and set procedures are in place to locate extra pax if a station along the way boards heavy causing that Coach to overflow.. The Conductors and Attendants can keep a running tally sheet of how many destination pax are located where, and when that stop comes up, know which doors to open to get them off and slot the boarding pax into the appropriate Coach(es).

OlympianHiawatha said:

There is no reason this will not work and work smoothly. Each Coach is designated to pax traveling to specific destinations, and set procedures are in place to locate extra pax if a station along the way boards heavy causing that Coach to overflow.. The Conductors and Attendants can keep a running tally sheet of how many destination pax are located where, and when that stop comes up, know which doors to open to get them off and slot the boarding pax into the appropriate Coach(es).

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I agree. The situation where this breaks down a bit is if the train is so long that all relevant cars cannot platform at the same time. Even with the relatively short Amtrak trains, this does occur at a few stations with remarkably short platforms on the LD network though, which is at least a bit of a headache requiring double and triple spots.

Qapla said:

I have noticed announcements to the effect that you should "walk forward/back to the train car with the open door" at stations with short platforms. This should work if the seats are assigned or not assigned.

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Right, because PA announcements at 3 AM for Denmark, SC are very much appreciated by the 150 passengers who aren't going to Denmark. Instead of grouping all the DNKs in one car, they could now be spread out amongst four cars.

Thirdrail7 said:

You should probably change the title. This isn't just the Meteor. They basically abolished the boarding plan for long-distance trains to accommodate the NEC, who are accustomed to sitting anywhere they want. They want to speed the train over the NEC and they believe the boarding plan prolongs station stops. So, now it will be a sort of free for all.

Well, basically when you're aren't given clear guidelines, you'll get freelancing crews. A lot of questions and situations were broached and the guidelines aren't clear. So, you get a "yes" with a "but" or a "no" with an "if" which translates into a "maybe" with a "when."

At the end of the day, it boiled down "do what you think is best," so I fully expect some to carry out a boarding plan based upon the manifest while others just throw in the towel and "give them what the want."

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Since this just started, I haven't had the pleasure of dealing with it yet. I may have more comments once seen in practice.

That said, this is a self-inflicted wound. The long hauls didn't local carry NEC passengers for the longest time. Then it became holidays only and now daily. Passengers who ride 15% of the route don't like being told to sit in the first car of the train, so crews have to deal with the fall-out for the remaining 85% of the route. It's funny NEC passengers are complaining about being told where to sit. According to Amtrak, assigned seating is what everyone wants, hence why it's rolling out to Business Class in January. I don't believe anyone making these decisions has actually ridden these trains, or possibly any train at all.

From all the Miami OBS people I've spoken to, no one has any idea how this is supposed to work due to the complete lack of guidance mentioned above. Many have interpreted this as no more seat assignments on the entire route, either out of true belief or spite for management. We're worried about an extra 1 or 2 dwell minutes on the precious NEC, but who cares if we spend extra time anywhere off corridor trying to get the right people off at the right stop. Platform might only be wide enough for one door. Are those passengers now spread throughout all the cars? And Heaven forbid we have a carry by.

While we're on the topic of local NEC carry, does anyone know where that revenue/ridership is posted? One would hope it's being credited to the long haul route, but I wouldn't be surprised if Amtrak allocates all of it to NEC Regional revenue/ridership.

On some of the trains it seems the seating has not always been "assigned" on the desire to "find" passengers who need to get off at a certain stop in the middle of the night. Sometimes it seems to also include the staff knowing which car will be stopping at and opening the door at stops with short platforms. I have noticed that sometimes they attempt to place a car at the platform that allows traffic on the road to resume as the train passes as it approaches the station. That places a car with the exit at the platform but it may not have been the car you got on when you boarded.

Of course, no matter what system is used - someone will not like it.

I still don’t see any problem with having any passengers getting off in (say) FBG sitting anywhere in the 3rd car, anyone going to RMT (middle of the night stop) in the 4th car, ORL any car, etc... Conductors go thru the cars (even at night) and look at the seat checks and only wake that person up.

I do agree that there should be some set aside and indicated as for “couples or groups only”.

the_traveler said:

I still don’t see any problem with having any passengers getting off in (say) FBG sitting anywhere in the 3rd car, anyone going to RMT (middle of the night stop) in the 4th car, ORL any car, etc... Conductors go thru the cars (even at night) and look at the seat checks and only wake that person up.

I do agree that there should be some set aside and indicated as for “couples or groups only”.

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In general that’s exactly what was happening. On top of that some attendants were assigning seats, but they would typically allow reasonable requests if you wanted a window seat etc. The problem seems to be that solo passengers don’t like being assigned a seat with another passenger, so they think it’s unfair. The attendant assigning seats assures that virtually all groups get to sit together, and that they don’t have to wander the train looking for seats.

the_traveler said:

I still don’t see any problem with having any passengers getting off in (say) FBG sitting anywhere in the 3rd car, anyone going to RMT (middle of the night stop) in the 4th car, ORL any car, etc... Conductors go thru the cars (even at night) and look at the seat checks and only wake that person up.

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The problem is not waking the person up that needs to get off ... When the people who need to get off "in the middle of the night" are all seated in the same car - only that car gets disturbed by those getting off. However, if someone is three cars from the open door, even if the Conductor or Attendant may quietly wake them for their departure, the person has to get their carry-on from the rack and then walk through three cars hitting the chairs and passengers with their bags as they make their way to the car with the open door.

Qapla said:

The problem is not waking the person up that needs to get off ... When the people who need to get off "in the middle of the night" are all seated in the same car - only that car gets disturbed by those getting off. However, if someone is three cars from the open door, even if the Conductor or Attendant may quietly wake them for their departure, the person has to get their carry-on from the rack and then walk through three cars hitting the chairs and passengers with their bags as they make their way to the car with the open door.

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I have detrained at SLC at 3:30 am. The conductor came thru the car, shined his light at the seat checks on the luggage rack, noticed I was getting off at SLC and was in the aisle seat and woke me up at 3 am. (I was in coach.)

This allowed time to wake up, get my bags, not disturb other sleeping passengers and get my backs and get downstairs on the Superliner without disturbing other sleeping passengers.

I have also boarded at SLC at 3:30 am. I had NO problem being assigned a seat next to someone and sitting in an aisle seat.

crescent-zephyr said:

You are welcome to choose the way you travel but wow. Even if I get a bad seat on amtrak (which I have) I can always go hang out in the lounge where I can... gasp.. choose any seat I want! The odds are in my favor of getting a fine seat on amtrak, the only ones I don't like are the ones too close to the doors or the ones with no, or hardly no window. (Unless the infamous forum lounge police are in attendance, and then they will set a timer and eject me from the lounge!)

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I think you'll find it difficult, as a coach passenger, to access the lounge

crescent-zephyr said:

In general that’s exactly what was happening. On top of that some attendants were assigning seats, but they would typically allow reasonable requests if you wanted a window seat etc. The problem seems to be that solo passengers don’t like being assigned a seat with another passenger, so they think it’s unfair. The attendant assigning seats assures that virtually all groups get to sit together, and that they don’t have to wander the train looking for seats.

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What do those poor solo passengers do when they fly [if they fly]? "My space" seems to have become a concept that has taken on WAY too much importance for some Americans.

Palmetto said:

What do those poor solo passengers do when they fly [if they fly]? "My space" seems to have become a concept that has taken on WAY too much importance for some Americans.

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The claim about solo passengers is mostly a strawman. Some may do so but that does not mean all do so. Beating up solo passengers any which way seems to be a favorite pastime of some.

Palmetto said:

I think you'll find it difficult, as a coach passenger, to access the lounge.

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Why would it be difficult for a coach passenger to access the lounge?

On western trains, the SSL is open to all. On both eastern and western trains, the cafe car is called “the lounge”! Only on the eastern train is the “sleeping car lounge” (formerly the dining car) not available to coach passengers.

Palmetto said:

"My space" seems to have become a concept that has taken on WAY too much importance for some Americans.

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The only thing more absurd than solo coach travelers expecting social isolation is the presumed need for couples and adult relatives to spend every waking moment joined at the hip.

When I rode the Broadway Limited in 1973 between Chicago and Baltimore/North Philadelphia, there was total open seating in coach, and there didn't seem to be any problem. When I rode the Capitol Limited in 1988 (pre-Superliner), there was open seating in cars pre-selected by destination, so that those of us riding the full distance weren't disturbed by people detraining in Canton or Pittsburgh or whatever. That also worked out all right. When I rode coach on a very full Silver Star in 2012, I was assigned a seat by the coach attendant on the Platform before I boarded. That was OK, too. I got a window seat, with someone who boarded earlier already sitting in the aisle. (She was a mom whose two kids were in the seat pair across the aisle.) It was a bit uncomfortable having to ask her to move every time I wanted to use the restroom or go to the cafe car, but I managed. Anyway, that family got off in Orlando, and I had both seats to myself the rest of the way to Tampa.

When I travel the NEC with my wife and daughter, it's pretty common that we can't find seats together. So we suck it up and sit apart. But the ride is never more than 2 or three hours, so it's not such a big deal. Plus, we could go to the cafe car if we really wanted to all sit together.

Short of setting up pre-reserved seating like the airlines, I think maybe open seating in cars pre-selected by destination is probably the best alternative. It's not perfect, but it reduces dwell time at intermediate stops because the crew doesn't have to deal with every individual passenger on the platform, and it one less opportunity for certain crew members to interact with the passengers like a USMC DI with new recruits as Parriss Island. (Getting shouted at by a "drill sergeant" is one of the less endearing aspects of the Amtrak travel experience and should be restricted to matters strictly related to safety.)

MARC Rider said:

and it one less opportunity for certain crew members to interact with the passengers like a USMC DI with new recruits as Parriss Island. (Getting shouted at by a "drill sergeant" is one of the less endearing aspects of the Amtrak travel experience and should be restricted to matters strictly related to safety.)

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Most of the coach attendants who have assigned me seats have been very nice about it. But yes this does happen I’m sure. My worst experience ever was a station agent in Cary South Carolina. I was traveling in a sleeper so I was just sitting down in the waiting area and he called me by name and when I went to check with him he scolded me for not being in the line. He then insisted that I stand In the line of sleeping car passengers (there was like 3 others?) so he could “escort us to the platforms” - which was just outside the door. You can’t make it up.

Great idea, the passengers choose their own seats. Should eliminate delays at boarding when often a line forms waiting for a crew member to hand out slips of paper with seat assignment. Hopefully the agent at staffed stations will be directing passengers where to stand as the train arrives. Should speed up station dwell time.

Passengers are happier when they get the seat they want. Assume some of the seats will have a sign on them ‘reserved for Families’ as they do now.

For deboarding a crew member checks your overhead seat check for destination and wakes you if necessary. Except for rare holidays, eastern trains have no more than 4 coaches. If the vestibule in the middle is used, passenger needs to move no more than just one car ahead (or to the rear) to get off.

crescent-zephyr said:

My worst experience ever was a station agent in Cary South Carolina.

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Cary North Carolina, a short distance from Raleigh.

jis said:

Cary North Carolina, a short distance from Raleigh.

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Ah... good catch. Yeah of course I had ridden the Piedmont train from Charlotte... the Piedmont never goes through South Carolina! ha.

I've never had someone "hand me a slip of paper with my seat assignment" - they have just told me which door to enter the train if more than one door was open. As I was getting on at that door I was told to turn right/go forward or turn left/go toward the back to seat ## ... they came along later and placed the slip of paper in the rail with my destination.

Qapla said:

I've never had someone "hand me a slip of paper with my seat assignment" - they have just told me which door to enter the train if more than one door was open. As I was getting on at that door I was told to turn right/go forward or turn left/go toward the back to seat ## ... they came along later and placed the slip of paper in the rail with my destination.

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During the redevelopment of Denver Union Station, when boarding at the temporary station, the outbound conductor would sit at a desk prior to train arrival and have passengers present tickets, and if travelling in coach, would issue a seat check to each passenger based on their destination. IIRC, the seats weren't assigned, per se, but passengers were grouped together. (Currently, all coach passengers are checked in on platform, as Amtrak front-of-the-counter space in DUS is practically non-existent.)

If space exists at a station with a service stop, it seems to me this would be a sound practice under the current boarding system.

jis said:

The claim about solo passengers is mostly a strawman. Some may do so but that does not mean all do so. Beating up solo passengers any which way seems to be a favorite pastime of some.

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I was beating up on SOME solo passengers, as mentioned by one of the posters. Like you, I am a solo passenger who doesn't mind talking to strangers. As an aside, I chuckle reading comments about some passengers on British Airways Club World who find it awkward that they actually have to LOOK at each other during landing and takeoff, because the separation screen must be lowered in those moments.

Palmetto said:

What do those poor solo passengers do when they fly [if they fly]? "My space" seems to have become a concept that has taken on WAY too much importance for some Americans.

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I think the complaint by some of the solo passengers is that they're often assigned a seat with a seatmate in a care where there are still many empty seats available.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a desire to have a single seat to yourself, if it's available. I personally have a strong adverse physical reaction when my personal space is encroached upon, and I know many people whose physical aversion is stronger than mine. This is especially true if the person is a stranger, as you don't know whether they'll be a pleasant partner in conversation (as I recently had on the Carolinian between Alexandria and Wilson) or someone totally lacking in social skills and doesn't get the cues about your not wanting to talk. And solo women travelers are skittish about their chances of having seatmates who might get inappropriately physically close.

Obviously, if the train is full, you have to suck it up and accept a seatmate, but I understand how a solo rider might resent being told by the attendant to sit with some random stranger when there are numerous empty seat pairs clearly visible.

As far as how I handle flying, well either the airline has pre-assigned seats, or it's Southwest with open seating and boarding in the order in which you've checked in. If it's pre-assigned seats, I can check the seating chart and I can clearly see whether I have any choice about seatmates, or whether the flight is packed full. Most airlines also allow you to change your seat selection after booking, so you have as much control as possible (which might not be a lot) of your seat selection. In fact, I have switched my seat from a full row to a seat where I had the whole row to myself. When I fly Southwest, I pay for Early Bird check in, which gets me close enough to the front of the boarding line that I can always find a aisle seat, which is what I prefer when flying. And the flight attendants never act like drill sergeants telling passengers where to sit.

MARC Rider said:

I think the complaint by some of the solo passengers is that they're often assigned a seat with a seatmate in a care where there are still many empty seats available.

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That is indeed the complaint. It’s extremely sensible to want 2 seats to yourself. It’s also sensible for Amtrak to seat passengers in the most efficient way which means assigning solo passengers together. Both make sense.

If you have 20 solo passengers in a car that seats 60, if you let them sit anywhere they want you now have 20 single seats taken up scattered throughout the car. That leaves you with only 20 seats as pairs.

If you assign seats, those 20 passengers will take up the first 20 seats in the car leaving you with 40 seats together as pairs.