New dining options (flex dining) effective October 1, 2019

To those who have ridden, do the SCA’s usually offer to bring you the food? Or are they simply taking your order and telling you to get the food unless you request it?

Has anyone had an SCA who didn’t take the order even? Just wondering how disfferent crews are handling it.

Sure, where anything is a deeply integrated part of the economy and it crashes, there are political repercussions. Prime example is the California power cuts that led to the recall of governor Gray Davis. A major, extended disruption to transportation infrastructure that's vital to the economy would produce the same result, particularly in California. Amtrak's long distance service doesn't even come close to being significant, let alone vital, to the economy, though.

jis said:

Where trains form a really deeply integrated part of the economy, (US being a rather bad example of such, except at a few places) entire governments have fallen due to screwup of train service. In the US a complete cockup in the highway system could conceivably lead to such a calamity. That was the point I was making regarding what it means for the broad establishment to be on board about something.

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TiBike said:

Amtrak's long distance service doesn't even come close to being significant, let alone vital, to the economy, though.

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How many people does Amtrak move in and out of New Orleans daily? What’s the magic number that makes a transit system significant?

Any train that doesn't reliably provide on time service, on a schedule that maximises its utility to passengers at substantially all the stops along its route, is an amusement park ride. It offers value as entertainment, not transportation. That describes most Amtrak long distance trains. I could see an argument for considering the Empire Builder and Palmetto as extended corridor service, and the LSL and Capitol Limited as overnight transportation between major cities, but only an argument and I wouldn't make it. Otherwise, everything else is entertainment.

This thread is the best proof. There's more outage and sorrow over the loss of cooked to order steaks, than over abysmal on time performance and interminable travel times.

crescent-zephyr said:

Which trains do you think are an amusement service? Why do you think that?

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crescent-zephyr said:

How many people does Amtrak move in and out of New Orleans daily? What’s the magic number that makes a transit system significant?

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Fewer people than a single Caltrain between San Jose and San Francisco during commute hours.

The Surfliner and Capitol Corridor move millions of passengers a year, Caltrain and Metrolink move tens of millions, BART moves hundreds of millions. The vast majority of those passengers arrive on time, and on their own schedule. BART is certainly significant – it's a political, social and economic nightmare when there's a strike.

That compares to Amtrak moving hundreds of thousands in and out of New Orleans, an hour late on the average. You can't assume a given train will run, either. And no one has lost their job as a result. Because the service is not significant to the New Orleans economy.

TiBike said:

This thread is the best proof. There's more outage and sorrow over the loss of cooked to order steaks, than over abysmal on time performance and interminable travel times.

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You do realize this is a thread about dining car changes?

So if a transit service is late, it is now an amusement service? Lots of airlines offering amusement services these days as well! (Has American ever been on time? Ha! That’s a joke based on my personal experiences only).

A good portion of the on time performance could easily be corrected if the freight companies stuck to the terms of giving passenger the right-of-way and quit delaying them - but, instead of placing the blame where it belongs, on the freight trains, it is easier (and more politically expedient) to blame Amtrak.

However, being on time would not fix the dismal food service that is being offered for premium prices. If sleeper prices were lowered to reflect the food service and/or prices of the food for coach were lowered it would have an impact on how many people would recommend trains to their friends ... word of mouth does wonders for attracting customers - or driving them away.

TiBike said:

Any train that doesn't reliably provide on time service, on a schedule that maximises its utility to passengers at substantially all the stops along its route, is an amusement park ride......

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Is it wrong to enjoy your transportation? Amtrak LD trains do get you from A to B, slowly. There may not be an economic justification for all Amtrak routes but there could well be a social one. If so, is there a public need for the government to fund any deficits? That justification could include: those otherwise unable to travel because of health, lack of accessible public transportation in rural areas, environmental concerns with other modes, or limited ability to continue adding lanes to our congested highways.

Justification may also be based on the value of experiencing our magnificent country as no other transportation mode can. We do fund National Parks/Monuments because it is for the benefit of all of us and could not be economically justified otherwise. I suspect that is what Anderson is getting at when he talks about the value of an experiential service. I, for one, think that is a valid reason. So did many travelers, both U.S. and foreign, on our recent trips.

TiBike said:

Any train that doesn't reliably provide on time service, on a schedule that maximises its utility to passengers at substantially all the stops along its route, is an amusement park ride. It offers value as entertainment, not transportation. That describes most Amtrak long distance trains. I could see an argument for considering the Empire Builder and Palmetto as extended corridor service, and the LSL and Capitol Limited as overnight transportation between major cities, but only an argument and I wouldn't make it. Otherwise, everything else is entertainment.

This thread is the best proof. There's more outage and sorrow over the loss of cooked to order steaks, than over abysmal on time performance and interminable travel times.

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I wouldn’t say that. Are there entertainment riders on certain trains particular the cross countries and does that provide some of the value? Sure. But you’re forgetting that for a lot of people that don’t like to fly (like myself) trains have a lot of utility if you don’t want to have to drive and in some cases (not always) an overnight coach ticket for those willing to endure it can be more affordable than flying. When one prefers flying to trains it’s probably easy to dismiss them, but there are a significant amount of Amtrak riders that don’t like flying (and some that can’t for various reasons.) One long distance train where that entertainment analogy couldn’t be further from the truth is the auto train. It is a unique service but it has a lot of utility and people use it for transportation not entertainment. It isn’t just the long distance trains one could view as “insignificant.” All of the state supported corridors except maybe the surf liners and cascades (and even there it’d be iffy)...if you killed them it really wouldn’t have that much of an affect. You probably wouldn’t criticize the Vermonter because it’s not in the long distance line but it carries 90,000 people per year along a non crowded highway corridor - big whoop. I’m a supporter of the Vermonter it’s a great train but I’m not of any illusions that it’s a vital part of Vermont’s economy. You really could say that every Amtrak train in our air/road dominant society is insignificant as for as its economic impact. The NEC is the only area where you might see an affect on air/road congestion were you to cut it but even there the vast majority of that is the commuter railroads not Amtrak. Where I’m sure I agree with you is that Amtrak could be more significant in certain corridors and I support that growth - but I don’t think you have to cut all the long distance routes to get more corridors. There may be some network changes that make sense and we’ll see what happens with reauthorization but I don’t think you just cut all of them. With the amount we spend on military spending and lots of other crap at the federal level, the couple billion for the national network fails to offend me.

Reminder (again) - this topic of this thread is dining changes.

Thanks.

crescent-zephyr said:

You do realize this is a thread about dining car changes?

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Yes, and to get back on track, I was replying to what I interpreted (rightly or wrongly) as an inference that rail fans can generate a political tsunami of sufficient power to restore Amtrak dining cars to their glory days. As mentioned above, national parks are a good comparison. 318 million park visits in FY 2018, versus 4.5 million Amtrak long distance passengers – two orders of magnitude greater. That's enough to make a political wave or two. How far would, say, the Sierra Club get if it started lobbying for steak dinners for all overnight guests?

I could imagine there are food services in some national parks that operate at a loss. Actually would be an interesting thing to look into.

I haven't visited too many national parks, but I seem to remember signage indicating the food service was contracted out to a private third party.

keelhauled said:

I haven't visited too many national parks, but I seem to remember signage indicating the food service was contracted out to a private third party.

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Xanterra (which is actually the former Harvey house company) operates the food and lodging at Grand Canyon national park.

That doesn’t mean that the food operations are profitable.

How big of a flat top skillet can I fit in my roomette without tripping breakers? I would like to use industrial but 220 is hard to find on the train, so I guess I'm limited to 110.

pennyk said:

Reminder (again) - this topic of this thread is dining changes.

Thanks.

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My apologies for going off on a tangent.

TiBike said:

Any train that doesn't reliably provide on time service, on a schedule that maximises its utility to passengers at substantially all the stops along its route, is an amusement park ride. It offers value as entertainment, not transportation. That describes most Amtrak long distance trains. I could see an argument for considering the Empire Builder and Palmetto as extended corridor service, and the LSL and Capitol Limited as overnight transportation between major cities, but only an argument and I wouldn't make it. Otherwise, everything else is entertainment.

This thread is the best proof. There's more outage and sorrow over the loss of cooked to order steaks, than over abysmal on time performance and interminable travel times.

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In what way could the Empire Builder be construed as a corridor service, extended or otherwise?

crescent-zephyr said:

I could imagine there are food services in some national parks that operate at a loss. Actually would be an interesting thing to look into.

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I have been to quite a few National Parks/Monuments and at all of them food service was contracted out. Other services are contracted out also like the Park Service bus shuttle at Glacier National Park. I remember being "stuck" at the highest point along the shuttle drive where it was extremely windy and cold (yes, in August) waiting for a westbound shuttle for several hours and watched while twelve eastbound shuttles went by. Bad contractor, bad!

crescent-zephyr said:

I could imagine there are food services in some national parks that operate at a loss. Actually would be an interesting thing to look into.

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At a loss to the concessionaires, perhaps. But the ones that can't make a go of it get out of the business and are replaced by ones that can.

In a system as big and diverse as the National Parks, I'm sure there are exceptions and special cases, but on an aggregate basis visitor food service profits the Park Service.

Barb Stout said:

In what way could the Empire Builder be construed as a corridor service, extended or otherwise?

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I'm trying to stay on topic here, but go back a few years and read some of the posts about the EB. During the oil boom, workers were, according to the posts, effectively commuting on it (week on/week off, or whatever, schedules), and there was said to be an exceptional amount of local intermediate travel. If – and it's a big if – that were true, I can see the argument.

TiBike said:

At a loss to the concessionaires, perhaps. But the ones that can't make a go of it get out of the business and are replaced by ones that can.

In a system as big and diverse as the National Parks, I'm sure there are exceptions and special cases, but on an aggregate basis visitor food service profits the Park Service.

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No, that’s not necessarily how it works. I don’t know how it works, but it could be many different arrangements. One possibility is a company like xanterra is awarded the Grand Canyon contract with the terms that they operate the hotels and the multiple restaurants in the park. Some restaurants may operate at a loss or barely break even, but the entire contract is profitable because of the hotel and gift shops.

And unless you have a source for your final statement I’m going to assume it’s your opinion. You may be right, but you also might be wrong. Many people would assume park entrance fees cover the cost of the parks

"In addition to Recreation Fees, parks also collect revenue from concessions contracts through which the
NPS provides enhanced visitor services like lodging, food, tours, and guided recreation opportunities.
These revenues are used to fund management, improvement, enhancement, operation, construction, and
maintenance of commercial visitor services and facilities, as well as high-priority resource management
programs and concession activities".

https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/upload/FY2019-NPS-Budget-Justification.pdf

Sorry for continuing to stray from the topic (should there be one on funding or 2020 re-authorization?) but I didn't want anyone to think that the NPS was funded soley by park fees and income from contracts with concessionaires. The NPS would not survive without government funding. A quote from the 2019 NPS funding proposal:

"The discretionary budget request for the NPS is $2.4 billion, which supports an estimated 17,685 FTE. With recreation fee revenue and other mandatory funding sources, total 2019 funding for NPS is $3.2 billion."

Many parallels with Amtrak funding, including for food service. So the concessionaire, Xanterra or someone else, certainly makes a buck on their contract with NPS but that doesn't help the NPS, other than to keep visitors happy. But, the NPS is saying the concessionaire can do it more efficiently (lower net cost) than if the NPS tried to manage it themselves. I do know on our recent Grand Canyon visit Xanterra did a good job with the food we bought (but not inexpensive) and an outstanding one on their operation of the Grand Canyon RR train. But, with lower volumes, I suspect we would all get sticker shock if a Xanterra took on LD OBS.

This is a link to the full report:
https://www.doi.gov/sites/doi.gov/files/uploads/fy2019_nps_budget_justification.pdf

Again, please try to stay on topic. If you wish to discuss a different topic, please start a new thread.

Thank you.

crescent-zephyr said:

No, that’s not necessarily how it works. I don’t know how it works, but it could be many different arrangements. One possibility is a company like xanterra is awarded the Grand Canyon contract with the terms that they operate the hotels and the multiple restaurants in the park. Some restaurants may operate at a loss or barely break even, but the entire contract is profitable because of the hotel and gift shops.

And unless you have a source for your final statement I’m going to assume it’s your opinion. You may be right, but you also might be wrong. Many people would assume park entrance fees cover the cost of the parks

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The best example of something like this is probably overnight room service at a hotel: The odds are pretty good that even at the nosebleed prices charged, it doesn't "make a profit", especially if you burden out the expense of running it...but if you are a "proper" full-service hotel at the higher end of the market it might be seen as "part of the deal". Likewise, I suspect that food service at many hotels is only "paid for" because breakfast is "included", since for many hotels, having a bar/light restaurant is a business necessity (e.g. so someone who comes in on a reasonably late flight can at least grab something before going to sleep).

Anderson said:

The best example of something like this is probably overnight room service at a hotel: The odds are pretty good that even at the nosebleed prices charged, it doesn't "make a profit", especially if you burden out the expense of running it...but if you are a "proper" full-service hotel at the higher end of the market it might be seen as "part of the deal". Likewise, I suspect that food service at many hotels is only "paid for" because breakfast is "included", since for many hotels, having a bar/light restaurant is a business necessity (e.g. so someone who comes in on a reasonably late flight can at least grab something before going to sleep).

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As an employee at a high-end hotel, I can attest to this. Breakfast may break even (I don't have access to the P&Ls), but dinner? Unless there's a major event, seldom. We cut the losses as much as possible by moving dinner into the bar when occupancy is low and only scheduling servers "as needed", but the kitchen is open and ready to prepare a full menu until 11 p.m., 365 days a year...and you can get a burger or appetizer all the way to 1 a.m. It just goes with the territory when you offer service at this level. If only Amtrak felt the same way.