New dining options (flex dining) effective October 1, 2019

TiBike said:

I was on the last transatlantic trip of the QE2, in steerage (or whatever the lowest class is called). Only twin beds in the rooms – hanky panky is a privilege reserved for the upper classes. The whole point of a Cunard trip is to experience life as it might have been during the golden age of ocean travel. Strict class segregation – the QE2 even separated elevators by class, with no access to unauthorised decks.

Except for the first and last nights, the rule was only evening attire (i.e. black tie) is allowed after 6pm outside of your cabin, although it's mostly enforced by peer (peerage?) pressure. There was a cafe on a lower deck that'll serve you regardless, if you're brave enough to run the gauntlet of glares from fellow passengers.

Members of the Cunard Critics chat board organised a tour of the all the decks and most of the different staterooms, so we got to see how the other half lived. And passengers with upper class accomodations were allowed to bring guests into their grill rooms for drinks, so we had a chance to experience life at the top.

It was a lot of fun.

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That was a wonderful crossing, side by side with the QM2 and sailing under the Verrazano for the last time. That was the only time we had the pleasure of sailing Princess Grill, but if it weren’t for the final crossing I would not have spent the extra as I didn’t find it worth the cost.

I remember that sailing there was a passenger with a whippet who was a service dog, named Devo

What I still think about was the departure from Southampton, escorted by the QM2 and a P&O ship, and dozens, maybe hundreds, of yachts (to use term expansively ). True, the Princess Grill was pricey, but I had a drink there and kinda wished I'd sprung for it. The trip was priceless.

OBS said:

I don't believe that.

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Well talked to a phone agent and she confirmed it. I doubt she would know whether servers were told to not serve passengers at the table unless it is widely known within Amtrak. It's a big savings not having to tip for the non-service for the two of us.

Anderson said:

https://www.wvgazettemail.com/life/...cle_5179c3c8-962b-5ced-bc38-f5903858b436.html

A review. The writer picked up on the large shift in demand between the diners and the cafes from a different angle (and one I did not weigh), namely swamping the cafe.

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Yeah, but he sugar coated the complaints.

I found mostly NY pictures from that crossing but there may be more on my old laptop

Since conversation has turned to Cunard--which is interesting to me and I hope as others as well--I'll add my experiences on a trans-Atlantic from Hamburg-Southamption-New York on QE2 in Tourist Class. My traveling companion and I paid more per day for this cruise than we had sailing from New York to Copenhagen for 10 days followed by a 14 day North Cape Cruise on Royal Viking Sky in 1980. My traveling companion's daily lament was "when is this garbage barge going to get to New York?"

The ship was having labor problems. One wash cloth from Hamburg to Southampton with a second one available after day one from sailing from Southampton. No more after that. Sailing day lunch from Southampton, I ordered a small steak. I was served liver. A surly cabin steward (who was not ours) when we requested a second copy of a daily program, one for both of us. Tea service in a large Tourist Class lounge was provided with china that had cracks and no tea spoons. I have a photo of my friend stirring his tea with his pen knife. We complained to the Hotel Department on the first day from Hamburg with what we were experiencing. Shortly, sailing from Southampton, a Hotel Department Officer knocked on our cabiin door--JUST AFTER we had encountered with the surly Cabin Steward--he apologized for both of the situations, but nothing changed.

One outstanding memory, though, is a Deck Steward's service on a windy and cool July morning when I was the sole guest who appeared on the Tourist Class aft open deck to spend some time in the open air in a deck chair. The gentleman erected a chair, got a blanket and tucked me in, and I ordered a Bloody Mary. Quickly, he arrived with the glass on a tray he was holding. A gust of wind caught the tray and spilled the drink towards him so that his uniform was coated with Bloody Mary. He apologized (like it was his fault). He returned shortly dressed in a clean uniform with a Bloody Mary that I enjoyed. This was the Cunard service that I expected. He received a generous gratuity on the invoice slip that I signed.

Many years later, I booked a QM2 Caribbean cruise with "fingers" crossed. My cabin category placed me in the standard restaurant. Other than an over officious Table Cabin, the cruise met my expectations and allowed me to meet other friends on that cruise with whom I am still in touch.

Please return the conversation to the topic of Amtrak Flex Dining. Other topics (such as food on cruise ships) may be discussed in the lounge.

Thank you.

pennyk said:

Please return the conversation to the topic of Amtrak Flex Dining. Other topics (such as food on cruise ships) may be discussed in the lounge.

Thank you.

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Depending on one's class of service, that may be the Sightseer Lounge or the Sleeper Lounge.

Economic segregation and/or product segmentation are not, in and of themselves, absolute evils. I actually think Cunard (per the lengthy sidebar) shows this. The problem is when they come at the expense of a marketable/passable experience. IIRC, most of the older trains either had a diner on both sides of the barrier, the diner was a shared space, or the split was carried out at the train level (e.g. 20th Century Limited vs Commodore Vanderbilt) rather than within the train. Tossing the third option aside outside of some high-traffic routes (e.g. the Acela), Amtrak mostly took the latter route (with the exception of the first few years of the Super Chief/El Capitan, a decision that was more down to transitional inertia than anything). This isn't to say that you might not have dedicated sleeper lounge space (e.g. the Sun Lounge on the old Silver Meteor) but the dining facilities were quite often combined.

Taking this to the current cluster, for example, it would not be conceptually problematic to serve the same meals out of the "back door" of the dining car for coach pax if the main desire were to separate the areas. Lock the two sliding doors open and hand them a tray. The menu might even be slightly different. I believe that the Caledonian Sleeper more-or-less does this in the UK.

The main problem for the non-Auto Train trains, at present, is that having a tier below a "decent TV dinner for lunch or dinner" is a bad thing (and on the breakfast side, I'd argue that the food differences between coach and sleeper are a wash...it's a trade between access to cereal in the diner and different pastries in the cafe). As to the Auto Train, the problem there is that regardless of what Amtrak has in mind they have also given good reason for everyone to seriously doubt their proposed handling of the cafe situation (which, as a matter of course, would still likely require two employees due to the combination of passenger loads and the fact that everyone is going the whole distance).

I'm not comfortable with a service run and subsidized by the US government moving in the direction of more segregation by economic class. In recent years, venues where citizens of diverse backgrounds share the same experience have become fewer and fewer. Democracy (indeed, any sort of "we're all in this together" cooperation) is handicapped by this.

tricia said:

I'm not comfortable with a service run and subsidized by the US government moving in the direction of more segregation by economic class. In recent years, venues where citizens of diverse backgrounds share the same experience have become fewer and fewer. Democracy (indeed, any sort of "we're all in this together" cooperation) is handicapped by this.

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Then you are probably uncomfortable with any sort of First Class service, which I think in unrealistic utopianism. [emoji57]

jis said:

Then you are probably uncomfortable with any sort of First Class service, which I think in unrealistic utopianism. [emoji57]

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No, I'm uncomfortable with citizens in a democracy subsidizing a public service that's structured in ways that enforce increasing economic class segregation. I don't have any problem with Cunard doing this. I don't even have a problem with Amtrak selling roomettes and bedrooms--i.e., paying extra for extra space that allows you to sleep lying flat. I do have a problem with cordoning off the diner so that only upper-class tickets grant access.

Granted, there's not a bright right/wrong line here. But loss of yet another venue where people from all walks of life consider it normal to mingle together is a real cost, I think.

So then the removal of the Coast Starlight Parlor Car was a good thing then. Or could that also be viewed as part of paying extra for extra floor space, and therefore OK?

jis said:

So then the removal of the Coast Starlight Parlor Car was a good thing then. Or could that also be viewed as part of paying extra for extra floor space, and therefore OK?

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I think the PPC being off-limits for coach passengers was mitigated by a real diner being available for them that was used by both coach and sleeper passengers. In my (limited) experience on the Coast Starlight when it had a PPC, folks with sleeper tickets were at least as likely to eat in the diner with coach passengers as to eat in the PPC with its more-limited menu. Myself, I went to the diner for breakfast and usually had dinner in the PPC--especially when lamb shanks were on the menu.

Once again, there's no bright right/wrong line here. But there is a social cost to policies that increase economic segregation, and I think that cost should be considered when gov't-supported entities such as Amtrak make policy changes.

pennyk said:

Please return the conversation to the topic of Amtrak Flex Dining. Other topics (such as food on cruise ships) may be discussed in the lounge.

Thank you.

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May I offer my apologies for my recent post?

I recently signed the dining car petition. One thing I don’t understand however is comments from signatories saying they are giving up train travel altogether and flying/driving instead. Obviously if you otherwise like flying better and the dining car was the only thing that tipped the scales in favor of Amtrak then hey fly. But I frankly think boycotting is counter productive in this case especially if your train isn’t one that has been switched to flex dining and you are just quitting Amtrak altogether out of principle. Obviously to each their own, but I again do not think boycotts are going to be affective. I think the only thing that could possibly be affective is a lot of noise and trying to reverse the congressional mandate. While I support the petition goal and would like to see the mandate go away and traditional dining maintained and put back on the trains it was removed from, there’s also for me a lot more about train travel than the food and I’m certainly not going to boycott. Obviously everyone has the right to their own take on that but that’s how I look at it. I’ll still ride and if I can’t stomach the meals I’ll bring some food aboard with me or eat a big meal before departure where I won’t need dinner.

tricia said:

I think the PPC being off-limits for coach passengers was mitigated by a real diner being available for them that was used by both coach and sleeper passengers. In my (limited) experience on the Coast Starlight when it had a PPC, folks with sleeper tickets were at least as likely to eat in the diner with coach passengers as to eat in the PPC with its more-limited menu. Myself, I went to the diner for breakfast and usually had dinner in the PPC--especially when lamb shanks were on the menu.

Once again, there's no bright right/wrong line here. But there is a social cost to policies that increase economic segregation, and I think that cost should be considered when gov't-supported entities such as Amtrak make policy changes.

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I think it also helps that the traffic loads on the Starlight were often such that the PPC basically helped vent perhaps 18-24 pax/meal from the diner. The only other trains with the sorts of sleeper loads the Starlight tended to have at the time were the Auto Train and the Empire Builder.

IF only sleeping car passengers had access to good food in the diner, that would be a totally different discussion. As it is... nobody has access to good food!

lordsigma said:

I recently signed the dining car petition. One thing I don’t understand however is comments from signatories saying they are giving up train travel altogether and flying/driving instead. Obviously if you otherwise like flying better and the dining car was the only thing that tipped the scales in favor of Amtrak then hey fly. But I frankly think boycotting is counter productive in this case especially if your train isn’t one that has been switched to flex dining and you are just quitting Amtrak altogether out of principle.

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I agree that it would be counterproductive to boycott Amtrak travel completely. I think what might be effective is to boycott flex dining. For example, if the LSA hears, over and over, "Could I just have a cup of coffee, please, because I will not eat the flex dining food so I [ate before I boarded, brought my own, had a real diner breakfast earlier which will last me all day, etc."]? And then repeat that--just slip it into casual conversation--to whoever is around--SCA, lounge attendants, etc.--eventually things might change when 90 percent of the flex stuff they loaded is still on the train at the last stop and all they are hearing is complaints.

Also, if it is really true that the LSA is not allowed to bring food to the tables anymore, a few comments about how dangerous it is to try to carry things back to the table and to stand waiting in line should get right through if nothing else does. I would think Amtrak would be terrified of a bunch of people falling and suing them.

I do not plan to boycott Amtrak, yet. I hope to be able to take the Prettiest Girl in Texas on at least one more long distance trip before the dining options change on Western trains. On points.

After that, who knows?

That could lead to Flex Dining being replaced by Coffee service though [emoji57]

I am currently on the Capitol Limited and this business about LSAs/SCAs being prohibited to bring food to the table for passengers is apparently utter bs. I saw them do so many times, including for me, and when asked about such a prohibition they said they have not heard of such a thing.

Back when I started refusing food on United Airlines the FA's didn't even bat an eye. In fact they'd still offer you the next meal unsolicited as if you'd never said anything at all. Looking around during meal service you could see many entrees were barely picked at before being collected and trashed. The food never seemed to improve and the staff never seemed to notice or care who ate or not. Since Amtrak is run by an airline executive who has provided no meaningful indication that he puts the customer experience anywhere near the top of his priorities I would not expect word of mouth complaints or lack of consumption to mean anything of relevance to him. Personally I think the path to real corrective action lies mainly with our Senators and Congresspeople. Anderson probably doesn't care what you think about his food, but our Congress has already shown they can successfully override Anderson's agenda when it comes to route abandonment and bus bridges. Now it's time for them to reverse the Mica mandate and motivate Amtrak to improve food service again.

Perhaps those of us who can't eat what's offered might take the food and announce: "I can't eat this, but maybe someone in coach can." Then go to coach and give it away. And follow up by calling or mailing a complaint to Amtrak's customer service.

tonys96 said:

I do not plan to boycott Amtrak, yet. I hope to be able to take the Prettiest Girl in Texas on at least one more long distance trip before the dining options change on Western trains. On points.

After that, who knows?

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I’m not convinced yet it’s coming to the western trains from reading the five year service plans. Otherwise what is the point in keeping the traditional dining on there now and why didn’t they just do it everywhere now? I think they do realize there is a difference in the longer distance trips and probably want to approach those more carefully. There may be some changes to those to try to reduce costs (or boost revenue) on those but I’m not convinced they’re going to do the exact same thing as the eastern trains. It may not be necessary to breakeven on F&B on every single train so long as they breakeven nationally. I think one way they may approach the western trains is hinted at in the five year plans. I think they may try to bring in some more premium offerings (like what is offered on VIA’s routes) to try to boost revenue.

Some friends of mine just returned from New York on the Lake Shore. They took some photos of the new diners. I was greatly saddened by how nice they looked with up to date styling and a somewhat nostalgic feel of the diners I recall from the heyday of train travel. To see them unused for the purpose they were purchased for is truly a sad day. I agree with those who say the food service and service in general is chasing away riders. I for one used to love to take the train, but with the loss of most basic of human needs, decent food, its simply become questionable as to if I will book a trip on Amtrak. There is just something off putting about the downgrade of rail service that Amtrak has been on for years. Plus the lack of decent maintenance was also an issue they were not pleased with in the sleepers. Running shabby consist with poor food choices is not a way to encourage many passengers.