The Boeing MAX 8 Accidents

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
If Boeing were looking here for suggestions (ha!), mine would be to bring back and re-engine the 757. That airframe should have a lot more potential for future development. Of course, that would mean that the Southwest pilots would all have to be (re!) trained....

One other factor: Southwest essentially owns William P. Hobby Airport near my home in Houston. Due to its 1930s design and tight taxiway clearances, that airport is closed to any aircraft with a wingspan greater than 125 feet. The wingspan of the B-757, as previously built, was 124 feet 10 inches. Doesn't leave much room to play around for aerodynamic tricks.
The 757 is (soon to be was) a fine airplane - especially with the Rolls engines. Fuel efficiency was its undoing, although that got you incredible take-off and landing performance. They also have a luxury few single-aisles have - a second boarding door to isolate First Class. British Airways always used it; AA was hit-or-miss depending on airport.
 
The 757 is (soon to be was) a fine airplane - especially with the Rolls engines. Fuel efficiency was its undoing, although that got you incredible take-off and landing performance. They also have a luxury few single-aisles have - a second boarding door to isolate First Class. British Airways always used it; AA was hit-or-miss depending on airport.

I flew on a 757 just over a week ago, back in coach. Delta didn't use the front door for boarding first class, but everyone boarded in the middle of Comfort+, so first class didn't have a ton of people walking through it. It's a nice plane, and I'm surprised that they haven't tried to retool it to be more fuel efficient.
 
I flew on a 757 just over a week ago, back in coach. Delta didn't use the front door for boarding first class, but everyone boarded in the middle of Comfort+, so first class didn't have a ton of people walking through it. It's a nice plane, and I'm surprised that they haven't tried to retool it to be more fuel efficient.
You don't consider the addition of winglets "retooling for greater fuel efficiency"? They have done that for most of their 757s that they intend to retain for a while.
 
You don't consider the addition of winglets "retooling for greater fuel efficiency"? They have done that for most of their 757s that they intend to retain for a while.
I applaud the airlines that did this, since 757's still have a role in certain long "thin" international routes. Both AA's and United's front cabin reconfiguration for this application (lie-flat seats) have their merits, and there's something about a small cabin that improves the service. That having been said, it's a very long claustrophobic cabin in economy on a flight of more than a few hours.
 
With the MAX situation and the assembly issues with 787's, it is worthwhile to remember when Boeing did it right and built the best aircraft in the world. As has been mentioned, the 757 is an example, as is the 767 and my favorite - the 747. They used to be able to compete without cutting corners. Quite sad really...
 
You don't consider the addition of winglets "retooling for greater fuel efficiency"? They have done that for most of their 757s that they intend to retain for a while.

I was thinking more of a larger overhaul than adding the winglets - something akin to a new version number on the Boeing side. Not something I imagine Delta could do. The winglets certainly help, though.
 
I was thinking more of a larger overhaul than adding the winglets - something akin to a new version number on the Boeing side. Not something I imagine Delta could do. The winglets certainly help, though.

Boeing has discontinued the 757 line quite a while back. There is no chance if it getting revived since it comes nowhere near meeting the weight and fuel efficiency goals acceptable today. There is no hope for any version of it competing favorably with say an A321ULR.

Boeing’s real problem is that they have neglected developing a real competition in both the space covered tenuously by the 737 (more through excellent marketing than technology) and 757. They are likely to pay dearly for it as time and cutting corners in doing yet another gen of 737 goes on ad infinitum.
 
With the MAX situation and the assembly issues with 787's, it is worthwhile to remember when Boeing did it right and built the best aircraft in the world. As has been mentioned, the 757 is an example, as is the 767 and my favorite - the 747. They used to be able to compete without cutting corners. Quite sad really...
The 747 was an amazing accomplishment but early models had numerous issues and shortcomings that led to a long list of incidents, accidents, and complications. Boeing's decision to use uranium as a counterweight was especially questionable and unnecessary. Although relatively safe to knowledgeable maintenance personnel when fully intact, these designs were dangerous to passengers, bystanders, and first responders at 741 accident sites who risked unknowingly inhaling or ingesting radioactive dust. The fundamental design failures and flawed corrective actions involving early 747 Combi units were so difficult to defend the entire class is largely relegated to history. The 767 had serious thrust reverser issues that should have been caught in the testing and certification phase. Early model 737's suffered numerous rudder hardover events due to flawed actuators. I could go on but the point is that Boeing has never actually lived up to the nearly infallible status some fans insist on granting it. I'm not anti-Boeing or pro-whoever, I just think it's important to remember that manufacturers of critical systems are only as dependable as the regulations under which they operate. Give any manufacturer the ability to self-certify their critical system designs and safety protocols and you'll eventually suffer the repercussions of that decision.
 
Last edited:
It's fair to point out the exceptions, which all aircraft manufacturers have endured in the development of new models, however the current situation seems to tell of a culture of neglect at the company based on the need to impress shareholders. All the planes you've mentioned above have gone on to have long and historic careers. The 787 may recover from the "Renton builds only" buying strategy of North American airlines, but I wonder if the 737 MAX will ever fly again without significant modification.
 
The 787 may recover from the "Renton builds only" buying strategy of North American airlines, but I wonder if the 737 MAX will ever fly again without significant modification.
Ironically not a single 787 has ever been built at Renton o_O Only Everett and Charleston.
 
Ironically not a single 787 has ever been built at Renton o_O Only Everett and Charleston.
I didn't research it further, but it was a direct quote from a recent article regarding the issues with the Charleston builds - loose wires, metal shavings, ill-fitting parts, et al. The author was stating that three major airlines (I believe AA and AC are two) have specified only 787's built in Washington state after having to do modifications in-house. He said Renton and I assumed (obviously incorrectly) that was accurate.
 
Renton is where 737s including the MAX are assembled. Their fuselages are built somewhere in Kansas I believe and shipped to Renton by rail. There is really not enough space there to do any wide body at all. All of those are in Everett, until of course the 787 line in Charleston opened up. All 747s, 767s and 777s (including the Xs) and about half the 787s are still at Everett. I don't believe there are any plans of moving any of the CF wing fabrication for the 777Xs out of Everett either.

Speaking of ill fitting parts, the initial attempts to put together the first 787 was apparently borderline hilarious with parts misalignment by multiple inches and all that. Of course those problems were fixed pronto, and they have not faced any such problems with the 777Xs. There was a steep learning curve in doing an actual CAD driven manufacturing floor.
 
Last edited:
Forgive my ignorance of the subject...but I have to wonder, if the 'fix' for the MAX is going to be very difficult, could it possibly be easier (and cheaper), to "downgrade" the existing aircraft into the previous 737 model? If even possible?
 
Forgive my ignorance of the subject...but I have to wonder, if the 'fix' for the MAX is going to be very difficult, could it possibly be easier (and cheaper), to "downgrade" the existing aircraft into the previous 737 model? If even possible?
Treating the MAX like a previous 737 model is precisely how we ended up with this situation in the first place. The solution is to stop grandfathering endless modifications and re-certify from the ground up like a brand new design.
 
I understand that...but I meant physically rebuilding the aircraft...not just changing software or whatever fix it is that they are trying to do...
That may sound radical, but I don't know just what the differences are between the MAX, and the previous model....
 
I understand that...but I meant physically rebuilding the aircraft...not just changing software or whatever fix it is that they are trying to do...
That may sound radical, but I don't know just what the differences are between the MAX, and the previous model....
What makes the MAX competitive with the A320neo is the new larger fan engine, which is what causes the aerodynamics to change which causes the need for MCAS to make the aircraft have the same feel as the NG. If you basically revert back to NG you can expect most of your orders to vaporize since there is no compelling reason to buy the aircraft anymore except for a few cases of filling holes in seat inventory while Airbus cranks up their production of 320neos.

The other fix is to accept this as a new aircraft avoiding all the needs for meeting grandfathering requirements and carrying the baggage of 40 years along with you, and actually have a better safer aircraft. But that is too expensive and Southwest will not like the cost of extra training that their pilots will need apparently.
 
I was just considering the MAX aircraft that were already built, and are grounded...not future builds. But now the NG aircraft are also under scrutiny for cracks found in their frame components...boy, Boeing is not having a good year...

https://www.aerotime.aero/rytis.beresnevicius/24050-boeing-737-ng-affected-pickle-forks

The 737MAX isn’t simply an NG with new engines. Boeing adjusted the wing, landing gear, APU, fuselage strengthening (to handle heavier weights), cockpit systems, some control systems, and a lot of other little internal stuff.

They are different enough that the cost of downgrading would probably be more than the cost of building a new one from scratch.
 
The 737 fuselage making the trip by rail from Kansas always sticks in my mind....In 2014 6 of them came off a train in a Montana derailment, with 3 actually going down an embankment to a river. All 6 were written off and recycled.
 
NBC NIghtly News on October 11th didn't have a favorable report about the FAA's certification role in this plane.

My opinion which I have stated before on this Forum: the entire leadership of Boeing needs to be replaced and it is the responsibility of those of us shareholders, of whatever amounts, to do so. It is the responsibility of our Congress to replace the leadership and reform the FAA. All of this ought to be done with the interest of those of us who fly on a Boeing built plane.

And, what are the odds of this happening?
 
Back
Top