Train vs. Plane -- The New York Times steps in

neroden said:

Yeah. I think the "I don't fly" market is also underestimated. People who use trains as practical transportation because air is simply ruled out for them, whether because of fear of flying, medical conditions, dislike for the TSA, or "carbon emissions shame". I'm in the "I don't fly" category and there turn out to be a lot of us. Just medically diagnosable fear of flying apparently affects 6.5% of the population, which is about 2 million people.

"Train vs. Car" is the option for these people.

Click to expand...

I think your math is backwards. 2% of the population would be 6.5m or so (there being something over 300m people in the US). 6.5% would be around 20m.

Qapla said:

The thing is, when we first started looking, the train was not even a consideration - we were checking flights ... not trains. The train didn't enter the picture until we had trouble finding a flight that fit her budget. We did not gloss over any negatives - we just don't view as "negative" the same things you view as negative.



It's called family ... always willing to help

Click to expand...

On the first bit, that is almost identical to my first overnight train trip: I was initially going to fly to Florida. I checked flights (admittedly, I fumbled the search because it was pretty much my first self-booked trip and since I was going to "Daytona Beach" I didn't think to look up "Orlando", and looked up a one-way fare) and found them insanely expensive (IIRC it was $500 for a one-way flight down). I promptly turned to my grandmother and asked if I could look at Amtrak, which was about $150 or so each way. Sold.

As to family, that works if it works for their schedule. Friends are in the same boat. For example, I've got a reasonably reliable ride to/from Richmond (Staples Mill) or Norfolk. However, he's currently in the middle of a two-week work project that basically knocks him out of doing that (unless it's a damned big emergency). Having Uncle John do a pickup is all well and good unless he can't get off work that evening, and not all of us have large families "in the area".

MARC Rider said:

"We actually stayed in South Plainfield ... nowhere near Newark."

Well, it's closer to Newark than Trenton. Metuchen seems to be the nearest train station with frequent service (NJT) into New York. It's pretty far from Manhattan (37 miles), if that's where you're headed. Google Maps shows it as a 54 minute drive with no traffic. Their recommended transit is a 2 hour bus ride. Anyway, I would consider it as part of the "Newark Metro Area" if such a thing existed.

Click to expand...

Historically the Borough of South Plainfield was part of Piscataway Township, and was hived off from Piscataway, as was Edison and Dunnellen. Strictly speaking according to the definition of Metropolitan Statistical Areas in the State of NJ it is not part of the Newark Metroplolitan Statistical Area (Newark-Union, NJ-PA Metropolitan Division). It is in Middlesex County and is part of the Edison-New Brunswick, NJ Metropolitan Division.

If I was trying to get to New York from South Plainfield, I'd have someone drop me off at Metuchen or Metropark station on the NEC instead of bothering with the bus, specially during rush hours.

I always liked staying in New Jersey on my trips to nyc. It was fun to catch the various nj transit trains in and out of the city.

There used to be a great Hotel Indigo across the street from the Rahway train station. I could get some insanely cheap deals there. I don't think it's there anymore.. looks like the whole building was converted to condos.

Speaking of hotels close to train stations in NJ, the Hilton Newark Penn Station has now transmogrified into a Doubletree, so free cookies! Also, the complimentary Breakfast (for those with sufficient Hilton status) is a full breakfast, not just Continental as is the norm in Doubletrees.

Also there is a new Element by Marriott Bonvoy right next to the Harrison PATH station, with some great Railfan Rooms overlooking the NEC (between CP Rea and CP Dock) and PATH with probably some of the heaviest passenger traffic in North America. It is often possible to get some very reasonable rates.

You can get to either WTC or 33rd St (change at Journal Square) from the Harrison PATH station by PATH. And of course you can get to Newark Penn Station and thence to Newark Airport too.

crescent-zephyr said:

I always liked staying in New Jersey on my trips to nyc. It was fun to catch the various nj transit trains in and out of the city.

There used to be a great Hotel Indigo across the street from the Rahway train station. I could get some insanely cheap deals there. I don't think it's there anymore.. looks like the whole building was converted to condos.

Click to expand...

Gentrification of Rahway and Linden by the train stations goes on apace....

Metropark still has a hotel close by. It used to be a Hilton. It is something else now AFAIR.

neroden said:

Yeah. I think the "I don't fly" market is also underestimated. People who use trains as practical transportation because air is simply ruled out for them, whether because of fear of flying, medical conditions, dislike for the TSA, or "carbon emissions shame". I'm in the "I don't fly" category and there turn out to be a lot of us. Just medically diagnosable fear of flying apparently affects 6.5% of the population, which is about 2 million people.

"Train vs. Car" is the option for these people.

Click to expand...

Count me into that category. Before I started taking the train, I drove everywhere. I have flown a few times but I really detest it and could only see myself flying again for overseas travel as the anxiety I have to go through to get myself to fly is just not worth it for a domestic trip.

As someone who likes trains and would use them more if they were more convenient, but for whom it's not a religious issue:

Qapla said:

I guess it all depends on your definition of "faster".

Click to expand...

We've only compared the Gulfport to DC trip and the plane was much faster, no matter how you define it (cheaper too). To take the train, we first had to drive an hour and a half to Hattiesburg, arriving before dawn. (Having to leave our car in an unprotected, albeit free, parking area.) After settling in, the trip was fairly pleasant, altho neither of us slept very well on the train. Entering DC while eating a leisurely breakfast was a treat and we had an easy connection to the Metro to get around DC. Compared with a 20 minute drive to GPT for a mid-morning departure and quick connection in Atlanta to DCA, then to the Metro, and we were at our final destination in time for dinner. Cost about 1/2 the train with roomette. The train was an adventure and I'm glad we did it but I'm not sure we'd do it again. Tottering along through Alabama and Georgia at 45 MPH is not the best use of our time.

tricia said:

Good choice for you, on this trip. However, Amtrak's arrival and departure times (in the middle of the night) are often much more problematic than air travel timing.

Click to expand...

When you think about it, roughly 1/3 of Amtrak's long distance train departures and arrivals occur at time when I'd normally be in bed. This is one reason I never took the Sunset between Gulfport and DeFuniak Springs (pre-Katrina). The train arrived in DeFuniak Spring at some ungodly hour. Who am I going to ask to meet me at the station at 3:00 AM? Now, I have taken late-night flights (e.g. Vancouver(YVR)-ATL) but 1) most of the flight was spent trying to sleep arriving in ATL in time for breakfast and 2) it saved me a bunch of money/miles over taking a flight at a more reasonable hour and 3) worked better for the float-plane schedule from the islands to YVR. However, getting up to catch a train at Oh-dark-thirty would be a non-starter if there was a plane that would get me there as well or better. And does Amtrak discount late-light departures? Not as I can tell. So there's no cost savings for the inconvenience.

I do know some folks who will not fly due to the hell they're put through at security because of all the metal in their bodies and other reasons. I get it. I like to ride the train and appreciate other folks do too. But through much (most?) of the US, there's just no competition when it comes to practical transportation, the plane or car wins any way you do the math.

We did drive to Trenton one of the days we were there ... we also drove to WT Farms - one of the main reasons for going to NY to start with.

Technically, we weren't "in" South Plainfield - we were between there and Piscataway.

We took NJT to Newark where we caught PATH into NYC and we used MTA to get around while in the city.

We took the Raritan Valley Line from Plainfield - we could park the car for free at night or pay $3 to park all day - didn't find any parking that cheap in Newark or NYC. There is a station in Dunellen that might have been closer - but, when I called to check on parking before we ever left Florida I was told I would have a much better chance getting a space at Plainfield. We did not have any problems parking.

It looks like parking at Metuchen is a little more limited than at Plainfield - but I am just going by Google ... I could be wrong.

I find the train very competitive on overnight trips in the 12-18 hour range, even if not in a roomette... a long-distance coach seat is so much more comfortable than any airline seat (or airport waiting-room seat) I am quite happy to be in it for twice as long.

It still helps to have reasonable times on both ends. I am very fortunate that I can catch the Builder in Whitefish rather than in Spokane!

Would be nice if I could actually read the article, but they block mobile.

jis said:

If I was trying to get to New York from South Plainfield, I'd have someone drop me off at Metuchen or Metropark station on the NEC instead of bothering with the bus, specially during rush hours.

Click to expand...

I guess that is fine if you know/have "someone" who can drop you off. When all you have is a rented car you have to drive there yourself and have a place to park.

Anderson said:

As to family, that works if it works for their schedule ... not all of us have large families "in the area".

Click to expand...

Since I have three grown daughters living at home and a brother and nephew living on the same property .... well, I guess I am just fortunate to usually have someone who can make their schedule work - we all help each other that way.

We were going to take the train to Raleigh a few weeks ago. My daughter(s) or my brother was willing to drop us off. Since we would get back while my daughters will be working (they go to work between 3-5 AM) my brother offered to pick us up when we got in (about 6:30 AM). Only thing is - Dorian caused us to have to cancel/reschedule.

We are hoping to try again in April or May - family is still willing to help

anumberone said:

like I said everywhere except LA --San Diego. But then I should through in Ventura, Santa Barbara and San Luis Obispo as decent train over plane destinations.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't say so. PDX-Seattle clocks in at 3.5 hours on Amtrak. That's time-competitive, less hassle (especially from city center-to-center) and a lot cheaper than a plane. Back-of-the-envelope calculation is 45 minutes on light rail from downtown Portland to PDX airport, about an hour total on Link from Sea-Tac to Pike Place, a 45-minute flight PDX-SEA (via Google) and reporting to the airport 1-1/2 hours prior to departure.

Seattle-Vancouver is 4.5 hours, which is roughly on-par with a flight. SEA-YVR is basically an hour flight not including customs and immigration (which is not insignificant at YVR these days). Add an hour on Link to Sea-Tac, 30-ish minutes on the Canada Line from YVR to the Fairmont in downtown Vancouver, and 1-1/2 hours of waiting at the airport and you have a four-ish hour trip by plane.

Siegmund said:

I find the train very competitive on overnight trips in the 12-18 hour range, even if not in a roomette... a long-distance coach seat is so much more comfortable than any airline seat (or airport waiting-room seat) I am quite happy to be in it for twice as long.

Click to expand...

A 12-18 hour train ride is a ~2 hour flight. For example, heading south from WAS, that time period gets you somewhere like Jacksonville or Atlanta. Leave around dinner, arrive around breakfast. Or, I can grab dinner, catch a flight, spend the night in a comfortable hotel bed and wake up ready to start the day. Or, depending on flight timing, sleep at home in my own bed, get up and catch an early flight and be there around the same time as the train arrives.

One advantage in both of those cities in particular is that I can walk off the plane and into a rental car with relative ease. Getting a rental car from either train station is a bit more complicated.

For me the dividing line is "do I have to take an extra day off from work if I take a train?" If the answer is yes, I fly. I have never seen an Amtrak fare low enough to make it financially justified to not do so.

6-8 hours is about the most I want to do for a day-train trip (or round-trip).

Unless it's a rail cruise or the journey is the destination - I'd consider an overnight 12-14 hour ride in a roomette if the timing and pricing work out. There just aren't that many workable options in the Amtrak timetable.

When we go to Raleigh it will be coach ... it's only about a 9 hour trip. Even though it is a night trip, I can always sleep before we go if I thought I couldn't sleep on the train. But, then, I can sleep almost anywhere.

We will save the $250 extra the round-trip would cost in a sleeper for other things we have planned while in NC.

At least speaking to my own experience, I'll take an evening train over a morning flight since while I can sleep on the train, nine times out of ten if I have a morning flight (or train) my ability to sleep is basically non-existent.

Ryan said:

A 12-18 hour train ride is a ~2 hour flight. For example, heading south from WAS, that time period gets you somewhere like Jacksonville or Atlanta. Leave around dinner, arrive around breakfast. Or, I can grab dinner, catch a flight, spend the night in a comfortable hotel bed and wake up ready to start the day. Or, depending on flight timing, sleep at home in my own bed, get up and catch an early flight and be there around the same time as the train arrives.

One advantage in both of those cities in particular is that I can walk off the plane and into a rental car with relative ease. Getting a rental car from either train station is a bit more complicated.

Click to expand...

Of course, both of those itineraries have the advantage of being direct journeys, not requiring a transfer. There are a lot of city pairs where a two-ish hour flight is equal to a two-day train journey, given our abysmal passenger rail structure. MSP - ATL is a 2:20 journey by air, with numerous daily flights on multiple carriers, but a 47:13 (basically two full days!) trip via rail, once a day, on one carrier. If a single connection is missed, there's another 24 hours added to the journey.

I wish we had the passenger rail infrastructure developed so shorter flights would have a truly competitive option. Unfortunately, there's very few markets where there's that option; where the train is reliably on-schedule and not 5-10x as long (or more!) than the equivalent flight.

keelhauled said:

For me the dividing line is "do I have to take an extra day off from work if I take a train?" If the answer is yes, I fly. I have never seen an Amtrak fare low enough to make it financially justified to not do so.

Click to expand...

Likewise. The exception is when the train is part of my vacation, such as when I take a particular train just to see the scenery (and cross that route off my list).

Back when I was working, there were a few overnight train trips I could take for business travel.

Washington to Chicago -- Leaves WAS at more or less quitting time, gets into CHI relatively early in the morning. Leaves CHI at quitting time, does kill the next morning on the train with a 1 PM arrival, but you can work while you ride. (and if you fly home, your morning is killed anyway)

Washington - Savannah (I used to present at a conference in Hilton Head on a semi-regular basis). The Meteor leaves DC at roughly 7:30 PM, gets into Savannah at about 7 AM, a taxi ride to the Airport to pick up a rental car, and I'm in Hilton Head by mid morning when the conference started. On the way home, the Meteor leaves Savannah at roughly 7:30 PM, with a roughly 7 AM arrival in DC and an 8:30 AM arrival in Baltimore. If I flew, I'd go down the night before, so this actually saved my employer the expense of a hotel room. I actually usually stayed in Savannah on my own dime for the last night and took the Palmetto home. (on my own time.)

Washington - Greenville, SC

The Crescent leaves about 6:30 PM, gets into Greenville at 5ish AM. Northbound leaves Greenville at 11:30 or so, gets into DC in mid morning. I did this once, for a one-day meeting with a tire manufacturer who happens to be located in Greenville, and I saved my employer the expense of a hotel room. My colleagues, who flew down (and fares to the Greenville-Spartanburg airport were insanely high at the time), had to spend 2 nights in a hotel.

Baltimore - Tampa

I did this twice for a week-long conference where I was presenting. I traveled on the weekend. The Star leaves Baltimore at about 1, leaves DC at 3 ish and gets to Tampa at about noon. Leaves Tampa about 5 PM, gets into Baltimore at 4 something. I rode coach on this trip because no sleepers were available.

I also once did a Baltimore to Atlanta overnight on the Crescent, back in the days when they had a Slumbercoach for only $50 over Coach fare. Cheaper than flying and saved a hotel room.

My employer only paid for the coach fare (except for that Slumbercoach), sleeper accommodations were on my dime. The coach fares were almost always much less than airfare, but we had to use government contract fares, which are fully refundable, but much more expensive than what you can find for yourself on the Internet.

The only thing I'd pick a nit with this article is they don't factor into account the frequency of travel options. For the Tampa to Fort Lauderdale trip, there are multiple flights throughout the day but only one train.

Anderson said:

As to family, that works if it works for their schedule. Friends are in the same boat. For example, I've got a reasonably reliable ride to/from Richmond (Staples Mill) or Norfolk. However, he's currently in the middle of a two-week work project that basically knocks him out of doing that (unless it's a damned big emergency). Having Uncle John do a pickup is all well and good unless he can't get off work that evening, and not all of us have large families "in the area".

Click to expand...

Plus, who feels comfortable asking friends or family to drop you off at 2:30AM and pick you up at 4:30AM? Even if they obliged I wouldn't feel good about putting them in that situation. Not to mention I often end up with undesirable arrivals on the other end as well. A schedule that is inconvenient for friends and family is also undesirable for most businesses. Amtrak's skeletal service, undesirable calling times, and poor schedule keeping makes for a tedious travel experience. On a typical trip I ride-share to my originating station in the middle of the night, board the train and eventually arrive at my connecting destination a few hours late, take Uber/Lyft to the airport, pickup a rental car, and drive for several more hours. It's a long and involved process but it's still faster (by about two days) than taking Amtrak the whole way to my final destination. Driving the whole way costs a lot less, undercuts the Amtrak travel time by about 30%, and lets me leave and arrive on my own schedule. Flying the whole way sometimes costs more but also undercuts the Amtrak travel time by about 80%.

The Starlight's schedule makes Amtrak impractical for business travel to the LA area from north of SLO. It arrives in LA too late for nearly all Metrolink connections, assuming it's on time, which is not a safe assumption. The only real option is to get off at Burbank airport and rent a car. And then maybe spend an hour or two driving to the destination.

When I fly, which I usually do, I have the choice of five airports in the region, and can usually land somewhere within a half hour or so drive of where I'm going. Door to door, it takes me 4 to 6 hours to fly to southern California, allowing time to get to the airport (unless I'm going somewhere near LAX, then I can fly out of Monterey and only spend 2 to 3 hours). Amtrak isn't a competitive option.

There is a legitimate market of people who do not like to, won’t, and can’t fly as well as people that simply like the train. I would imagine that most people that enjoy/don’t mind flying would probably fly every time unless taking a trip when they specifically want to take the train - from my observation there are many people who even are interested in trains that prefer flying as some have just stated on here.) I would imagine a lot of railfans are also aviation enthusiasts.) As far as convenient travel Amtrak is only competitive in certain markets and certain city pairs as stated but it should be noted - people still take Amtrak in markets where it’s not really competitive. I would argue Amtrak is not competitive with driving for the cities served with on the Vermonter yet it is quite popular anyway and that this is similar on some other Amtrak corridors that are once daily routes (remember that there are more once daily routes than just the long distance trains - but yet they never seem to get the same criticism.)

jebr said:

Of course, both of those itineraries have the advantage of being direct journeys, not requiring a transfer. There are a lot of city pairs where a two-ish hour flight is equal to a two-day train journey, given our abysmal passenger rail structure.

Click to expand...

And, in some parts of the country, the opposite happens. If you don't live in a hub city, "everywhere" is 2 flights away, not one direct flight away. That is my situation -- I can fly only to Seattle, Salt Lake, or Denver; that makes the Builder overnight to Portland, for instance, very competitive with losing ~7 daytime hours to getting to the airport early and changing planes in Seattle. Similarly to Minneapolis - I can spend 16 hours comfortably on the same train, or spend 8 uncomfortably on two planes and in two airports. Either way I will spend a full day of work time traveling.

I would imagine there are lots of city pairs on the east coast where Amtrak is direct but flying requires a change in Atlanta or Cincinnati.

It's one of the things I always liked about the railroads is that they had an actual *network* (as did many airlines up until the 70s) rather than the hub and spoke model with spending half the day in the hub airport as the price of travel. Though it seems to be less and less the case for Amtrak.

MARC Rider said:

I think I would add Oakland-Sacremento, and what about Portland-Seattle?

Click to expand...

Ref. PDX-SEA, years ago I was dispatcher for the Gray Line of Portland and our whole organization looked forward to the gravy from "fog runs" between PDX and SEA. The airline staff help load the bus and a surly bunch of tired air travelers pile on and go to sleep (there's nothing to see till you get out of the fog and rain -- if you do). Reverse the process at SEA-TAC. Collect $$$.

My father traveled weekly PDX-SEA for several years and co-workers would ask him why he always took the train, as they saw cheap flights advertised. The flights were usually late at night or first in the morning. From prior experience he knew those were the likeliest to be bustituted. He relied on Greyhound to back up Train 25 when it was late, but as he pointed out he only had to pay the bus fare rather than pay airfare for a Sunday evening on a bus.

Then there's what's known as the "I-5 car wash", or "instrument driving" as the speeding triples roar past in the rain, but that's a different reason to take the Cascades or leave the driving to someone else.