Possible Amtrak return to Michigan Central Station

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Joined
Sep 2, 2011
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Location
Ann Arbor, MI
It seems the Detroit/Wayne County Port Authority is studying a possible return of Amtrak service to Michigan Central Station. Definitely makes sense in the context of possibly adding Detroit-Toronto services, as operating out of MCS would make this far simpler. It would also make it easier to potentially restore Toledo service as well (to connect to LSL/CL), though Pontiac would require a backup move. You could also possibly retain service to both stations, though that may be confusing (it is done in some places, though - Stockton, CA comes to mind...)

Thoughts? Given the refurbishment of the building by Ford, it would be nice to see it be used for trains once again, but I do see the concern with Pontiac service.


https://www.mlive.com/news/2019/04/...ed-for-detroits-michigan-central-station.html
 
This has been going on for some time now....Ford stated last year that they were keeping passenger tracks intact (4 of them) for the return of service. I'm sure Amtrak and the PA jumped at the chance because it gets Amtrak off the CN to Pontiac and it also provides a possible first route for the long-awaited Mi-Train.

If service to DMC resumes, you can forget Pontiac, Royal Oak, the whole nine yards. Let a commuter operation handle it.
 
A through Toledo - Chicago service via the Detroit area could operate via Dearborn avoiding all backup moves. Trying to bring a train from Toledo into MCS that goes anywhere in the US after that will involve a backup move. An MCS terminating service from Toledo should work fine.

A Detroit MCS to Toronto service will involve a meander through Windsor to cross over to GT and VIA Windsor station, and would at best be time consuming. I cannot see Amtrak operating a service by itself from Detroit to Toronto. Such service will in likelihood be handled by VIA in Canada.
 
Doing Pontiac-Detroit commuter rail seems like a good idea - you could add that to the next RTA proposal (together with the Ann Arbor-Detroit line), and it would make it more attractive to Oakland County (you still have Macomb, though...). SEMTA (now SMART) ran a commuter service there from 1974-1983 (and Grand Trunk Western before that). Interestingly, it's Detroit terminus was at the Renaissance Center.
 
A through Toledo - Chicago service via the Detroit area could operate via Dearborn avoiding all backup moves. Trying to bring a train from Toledo into MCS that goes anywhere in the US after that will involve a backup move. An MCS terminating service from Toledo should work fine.

A Detroit MCS to Toronto service will involve a meander through Windsor to cross over to GT and VIA Windsor station, and would at best be time consuming. I cannot see Amtrak operating a service by itself from Detroit to Toronto. Such service will in likelihood be handled by VIA in Canada.
I know a Wolverine continued to Toledo from Detroit back when they were using MCS, which is why I figured it was an easier move from there. An Amtrak Chicago-Detroit-Toronto service (which is what they're considering, not just Detroit-Toronto) could bypass the VIA Windsor station and join that line further down (Windsor passengers could still use VIA Corridor to Toronto). Of course, it may make sense to have VIA operate it in Canada (like the Maple Leaf).
 
A through Toledo - Chicago service via the Detroit area could operate via Dearborn avoiding all backup moves. Trying to bring a train from Toledo into MCS that goes anywhere in the US after that will involve a backup move. An MCS terminating service from Toledo should work fine.

A Detroit MCS to Toronto service will involve a meander through Windsor to cross over to GT and VIA Windsor station, and would at best be time consuming. I cannot see Amtrak operating a service by itself from Detroit to Toronto. Such service will in likelihood be handled by VIA in Canada.

Either throw another station in there for Amtrak or don’t stop in Windsor. I doubt anyone is going to be buying a ticket for DMC to Windsor and anyone wanting to board in Windsor can take VIA.

Frankly I see the service operating in “drop off mode” going to Toronto and “pick up mode” going to Detroit. Any inter-Canada stuff should be handled by VIA exclusively.
 
Yeah, I was merely stating what the lay of the land is. It makes certain things easier and certain other things harder.

My suspicion is that VIA will run on CN and not on CP to Windsor, which means they will have to cross over to access the tunnel, and they'd probably do that from just a mile or two from Windsor station, meandering through Windsor anyway. If VIA is going to use a slot I find it unlikely that they will not use it to provide domestic service from Windsor to Toronto, unless Amtrak is willing to pay for the entire service, which I consider to be highly unlikely what with it being less than 300 miles. Actually I cannot see US being financially responsible for the Canadian part of the route at all.

Also there currently is not connecting track anymore in the eastbound direction from MCS to CPs route through the tunnel. So the Toronto bound train will have to back out of MCS to make it through the tunnel.
 
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I know a Wolverine continued to Toledo from Detroit back when they were using MCS, which is why I figured it was an easier move from there.

Could this possibly be confusion with the New York Central's named train "The Wolverine"?

That train, #8 and #17, operated through Canada (passengers reportedly were "rousted" twice) and MCS, then on the existing route (MC) to Chicago.
 
Could this possibly be confusion with the New York Central's named train "The Wolverine"?

That train, #8 and #17, operated through Canada (passengers reportedly were "rousted" twice) and MCS, then on the existing route (MC) to Chicago.
No - I meant one of the Amtrak trains in Michigan (though it started out being called the "Lake Cities"). It was a Chicago-Detroit-Toledo train timed to connect to the LSL/CL.
 
Too many Amtrak timetables to dig through to either accept or refute thully's position, so by default I accept it.

I guess when Amtrak operated their RTL Turbo equipment in Michigan service, it would be feasible in view of such equipment was bi-directional.
 
No - I meant one of the Amtrak trains in Michigan (though it started out being called the "Lake Cities"). It was a Chicago-Detroit-Toledo train timed to connect to the LSL/CL.
Right. When it was introduced in 1980, it was a Turboliner which reversed direction at MCS. It generally had miserable ridership through its entire existence on the Detroit - Toledo leg, and was finally replaced by a Thruway bus. The reason for its failure was that it was ridiculously slow on that leg.
 
My experience in living in Toledo, advocating in Toledo, and wanting it for a long time and what I've heard about the idea of Michigan - Toledo: Michigan is alright with it, but Ohio doesn't like the idea of money going into Michigan. It's been thrown around, but it's not the most popular idea among those who can actually put it into action.
 
My experience in living in Toledo, advocating in Toledo, and wanting it for a long time and what I've heard about the idea of Michigan - Toledo: Michigan is alright with it, but Ohio doesn't like the idea of money going into Michigan. It's been thrown around, but it's not the most popular idea among those who can actually put it into action.
Tyler, I think you are spot on. That Ohio goofiness is an additional problem above and beyond the technical and other financial issues. I believe it will happen if Michigan wants to run it, which they ought to since it most likely brings more business to Detroit than the other way around.

Michigan has actually been working with Amtrak off and on to reroute one of the east coast trains via Toledo - Detroit. The problem still is the miserable state of the route between Toledo and Detroit. It will need some significant funds to make it reasonably usable to run a credible passenger service rather than a token unused one.

Also, I doubt that any through train from the east to Chicago rerouted via Toledo - Detroit will ever go to MCS. It will stop at Dearborn as he Detroit area stop. It will add just too much time to its already long running time from the east to Chicago to go through the gymnastics that it will take to get it to visit MCS.
 
Tyler, I think you are spot on. That Ohio goofiness is an additional problem above and beyond the technical and other financial issues. I believe it will happen if Michigan wants to run it, which they ought to since it most likely brings more business to Detroit than the other way around.

Michigan has actually been working with Amtrak off and on to reroute one of the east coast trains via Toledo - Detroit. The problem still is the miserable state of the route between Toledo and Detroit. It will need some significant funds to make it reasonably usable to run a credible passenger service rather than a token unused one.

Also, I doubt that any through train from the east to Chicago rerouted via Toledo - Detroit will ever go to MCS. It will stop at Dearborn as he Detroit area stop. It will add just too much time to its already long running time from the east to Chicago to go through the gymnastics that it will take to get it to visit MCS.

Another issue I see, is where Toledo's train station is in relation to downtown. Downtown is a mile and a half from the station, and requires you to walk through a less-than-desirable part of the city. Especially when it comes down to what time trains arrive (between 12AM and 7AM), it makes it even worse. The station has gotten better considering it has become the Grayhound station as well, and downtown Toledo is revilitalizing, but I simply don't think people would take a train to Toledo from Detroit unless it was business, a one off (Let's try a train kind of crowd), or if they were connecting. I just can't imagine a lot of people wanting to visit Toledo unless they have family or there's something specific they want to see, as in Toledo isn't exactly a destination city. Uber and lyft aren't very big in Toledo, and there are no rental car companies anywhere near the train station.

Detroit isn't really a destination city as well, especially if you live in Toledo or NW Ohio - most people will drive up there instead of taking the train, and MCS is nowhere near downtown Detroit either - and the area around MCS is dangerous. I have been almost mugged taking photos of MCS. Not sure if this will change with all of the things going on, but there are still a lot of issues here.

This problem isn't as simple as funding a train, it's multi-tiered.

On the flip side, one of the biggest attractions in the Detroit area is one of my former employers, The Henry Ford Museum, which is right next to the Dearborn Amtrak Station. So it would be good in terms of maybe getting those who want to travel to the museum from Toledo. Maybe even sell packages where you get tickets and train tickets.

Edit: added content.
 
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Tyler, I think you are spot on. That Ohio goofiness is an additional problem above and beyond the technical and other financial issues. I believe it will happen if Michigan wants to run it, which they ought to since it most likely brings more business to Detroit than the other way around.

Michigan has actually been working with Amtrak off and on to reroute one of the east coast trains via Toledo - Detroit. The problem still is the miserable state of the route between Toledo and Detroit. It will need some significant funds to make it reasonably usable to run a credible passenger service rather than a token unused one.

Also, I doubt that any through train from the east to Chicago rerouted via Toledo - Detroit will ever go to MCS. It will stop at Dearborn as he Detroit area stop. It will add just too much time to its already long running time from the east to Chicago to go through the gymnastics that it will take to get it to visit MCS.


I addressed this issue in the “What Would You Add?” thread. Forget rerouting between Detroit and Toledo. Reroute the LSL and seal the train thru Canada and run it from DMC to Niagara Falls, then split in Albany.

IN/OH/PA has an issue? Add a second train to take up the LSL’s slot when equipment becomes available. I know a lot of kids in the college belt up here who would love to take the train from their university to NYP/BOS but can’t/won’t drive to Indiana/Ohio in the middle of the night and see traveling to Chicago first as “backtracking”.
 
I was under the impression that Ohio didn’t want to spend any money on Amtrak - hence all they have is LD trains arriving in the middle of the night. It is true that a train extended to Toledo wouldn’t really attract much ridership to/from Toledo itself - it would mainly for Michigan passengers to connect to the CL/LSL. An extension to Cleveland (and/or Columbus/Cincinnati) may be another story, though.

As for LSL sealed through Canada, I like that Idea (though I live in Michigan - those in IN/OH probably feel differently). Just time the non-stop part to be in the middle of the night. If they do Detroit-Toronto it seems worth looking into (either that, or extend an Empire Service to bring back the Niagara Rainbow).
 
.Detroit isn't really a destination city as well, especially if you live in Toledo or NW Ohio - most people will drive up there instead of taking the train, and MCS is nowhere near downtown Detroit.
Tyler, I like to think of Detroit as the "comeback kid".

I sincerely hold the Detroit Symphony is "world class", and since the Chicago Symphony is on strike for "who knows how long", I'd like to hit the road (not likely The Wolverines; just not all that reliable) to hear the DSO. For a matinee concert during '16, I walked from Marriott Renaissance Center to Fisher Orchestra Hall without incident. For those who prefer to be more "adventurous" with restaurants, there are selections within the city's Greektown area (for me driving, a stop off in Marshall at Schulers is "special").

With or without passenger service, Ford's committment to restoring MCS, and in hope of attracting professional millennials to an urban area that they seem to prefer, is placing a big bet on the future of Detroit.
 
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I suspect that a train funded by US taxpayers running through Canada with doors closed that carefully avoid large cities in the US on the alternate route currently served would be a very low priority for all, and is not going to happen beyond the fantasy-land of AU, no matter how much a few drool over the possibility ;)

The best bet for Detroit to realistically get service from NY is via Toledo, not via Canada.
 
I have wondered how Amtrak could leave the Chicago market with no access to Toronto. Years ago we took it when we traveled between Toronto and VanCover in the days just before Amtrak took over services in the States. We had considered the upgraded Canadian several times but having to go way out of your way though N.Y. is just not a very enticing idea.
 
If service to DMC resumes, you can forget Pontiac, Royal Oak, the whole nine yards. Let a commuter operation handle it.
I’m a Michigander, and I agree wholeheartedly with this take. My only concern is losing the QLine’s Amtrak connection at New Center, and thus most of the QLine’s minimal usefulness.
Perhaps an Amtrak relocation to MCS would open the door for a QLine extension up M-1 to Pontiac, and improvements like dedicated ROW?
 
I was surprised to find that there is more VIA service between Toronto and Windsor than there is Amtrak service between Chicago and Detroit.

Not surprising on this end. There are a lot of constraints we’re facing with slots on NS, equipment shortages, etc.

Once the new equipment arrives, Amtrak has the option of keeping the most recent refreshes and best cars in service for expanded service or just getting rid of them. Personally I think they’re just going to dump them, but someone has to start thinking far enough ahead to be sure there’s actually enough equipment to do the job both in the here and now and in the future.
 
People in SE Michigan have transportation needs that are not being met by the roads and freeway system. I94 is a perpetual mess of traffic, accidents, construction, weather, etc. Light rail connecting DTW to Detroit, Ann Arbor and Lansing is recognized as a priority by anyone who works for a living and is not in a position of power. Amtrak connecting to long distance service requires either the bus ride to middle of the night TOL or to CHI.
 
Not surprising on this end. There are a lot of constraints we’re facing with slots on NS, equipment shortages, etc.

Once the new equipment arrives, Amtrak has the option of keeping the most recent refreshes and best cars in service for expanded service or just getting rid of them. Personally I think they’re just going to dump them, but someone has to start thinking far enough ahead to be sure there’s actually enough equipment to do the job both in the here and now and in the future.

I think that will depend on, among other things, what the states want. I cannot speak to load factors (or, in particular, peak load factors at various points on different routes), but I suspect there are a few places where Amtrak will be able to find a contracting partner who will pay for some of that equipment to be put into use. Suspect #1 is probably California (notably, with the Surfliners). Of course, that will probably apply towards the Superliners...I'm of the (loose) understanding that Amtrak would probably like to be rid of the Horizons sooner rather than later.
 
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