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nti1094 said:
hey did anyone catch this notice?

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I guess the previous TIGER grants are paying dividends now! What a waste if they go and throw this away and annul the train.
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I’m guessing this rams back to solid 79mph and not 90 since the old Santa Fe ATS is long gone?

That reminds me, on my last trip on the chief I noticed the lead unit had ATS shoes, which I am used to seeing on the California fleet, especially Metrolink and the surfliners, And obviously across Arizona there must be ATS because I noticed a lot of 90mph running early in the morning... But I don’t think I ever remember seeing ATS shoes on any P-42’s elsewhere before. Does Amtrak maintain only certain ones and keep them assigned to the chief exclusively? I must say I’m shoved if they do. Seems like something beyond their usual ability in regards to operational logistics.
 
fredmcain said:
Devil's Advocate said:
In my experience poor maintenance, sloppy driving, and proud indifference to safety regulations are all core tenants of America's commercial trucking culture. Not every truck is a future disaster rolling on borrowed time, and some companies do a better job than others of ensuring meaningful compliance, but a lot of them are tempting fate with our lives in the balance.
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Yeah, I know I'm drifting off topic here but there are WAY too many big, dangerous trucks on the highways. And it might just get worse. They are talking about driverless trucks. In my own personal, honest, humble opinion "driverless trucks" should NEVER be allowed on our highways. Think about this for a minute: What if that truck that blew a tire had actually been the leading truck of a four-truck "platoon" with the following three driverless. O.K., so what happens to those following three trucks after he blows a tire and loses control? These are not trains; they can't just automatically dump the air and stop. The American people should begin asking some very serious questions about this before this genie is let out of the bottle 'cause once she's out it might be extremely difficult to put back in again.

Back the Chief: My question is, will passengers really and truly be safer on a bus than on a train operating over a line with an automatic block signal system but no PTC and only a few trains a day in each direction? Really?

Regards,

Fred M. Cain
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Mr. Cain, I strongly advise that you write an open letter to Mr. Anderson, Mr. Coscia, and Congress explaining this and asking why Mr. Anderson wants to *reduce* the safety of Amtrak passengers by putting them in the much riskier situation of transferring to a bus on the extremely dangerous roads.

We can get you the address for Amtrak's board, and you can send the letter certified mail.

We can help you get statistics and additional newspaper articles if you wish to write this letter; I'd be happy to help.
 
I started researching and I found that infuriatingly, in the US railroad passenger injuries and intercity bus passenger injuries aren't reported on a comparable basis, so it's hard to compare the statistics. *Sigh*

Still, more passengers on buses were killed in the 2013-2016 period than the number of Amtrak passengers killed in the 1975-2015 period. Which certainly says something about bus safety. Disturbingly, the number of bus fatalities and injuries has been *rising* even as ridership and route coverage has been dropping.

The experts' consensus is that trains are safer than buses. In Europe, where the statistics are comparable, it's absolutely clear: buses are less safe than trains. Both are much safer than cars by orders of magnitude, and airplanes are somewhat safer than either.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/04/04/trains-safer-than-cars-buses-passengers-experts-say/82613144/

In both buses and trains, the big problem is other dangerous drivers on the road -- for trains, the problem is at grade crossings, while for buses, the problem is along their entire route.

Some "Chinatown" bus companies had significantly worse safety records than other bus companies, and were shut down, but even Greyhound had 79 crashes involving injuries in the last 24 months. Amtrak... didn't.

Buses are less safe in general, and there's consensus on that.
 
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http://www.thekansan.com/news/20180907/moran-talks-amtrak-in-halstead

Moran talks Amtrak in Halstead

Sen. Jerry Moran (R-Kan.) made a listening stop tour in Halstead Sept. 8, hosting a town hall meeting in a full lecture hall at the Kansas Learning Center for Health.

Moran took time to discuss efforts to help Veterans get medical care through reforms of the Veteran’s Administration, attacks on the press by President Donald Trump, dysfunction in Washington, tariffs, rural life and other topics as they came up in the form of questions from his audience.

He also was able to take a very short victory lap, as Newton resident Sue Ice thanked Moran for his work this year to preserve the Southwest Chief — a long distance passenger train operated by Amtrak between Chicago and Los Angeles that makes six stops in Kansas, including a daily stop in Newton.
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neroden said:
I started researching and I found that infuriatingly, in the US railroad passenger injuries and intercity bus passenger injuries aren't reported on a comparable basis, so it's hard to compare the statistics. *Sigh*

Still, more passengers on buses were killed in the 2013-2016 period than the number of Amtrak passengers killed in the 1975-2015 period. Which certainly says something about bus safety.
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It says nothing without how many passenger-miles (or some other similar metric) were traveled on each individual mode of transport.

neroden said:
but even Greyhound had 79 crashes involving injuries in the last 24 months. Amtrak... didn't.
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Is the Greyhound count of "crashes involving injuries" including those where no Greyhound passengers were hurt, but passengers in the other vehicle were (and the fault was with the other vehicle?) If so, there's a lot of grade crossing incidents that would count against Amtrak as well.

neroden said:
Buses are less safe in general, and there's consensus on that.
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Is there, though? A couple pages ago I took a look at the fatality count on both, and on the fatality count in the US it looked like buses came out safer than trains. (I ran into the same issue with how the data was counted, so it was hard to do a true side-by-side comparison.) One thing was clear, and that's that either is orders of magnitude more safe than private automobile use.

I think there's a lot of reasons that the bus bridge idea is bad, most notably that it's going to kill through traffic (transferring onto a bus and then back onto a train will lose almost all choice riders.) Safety is one that's a lot harder to defend, at least from the perspective of "a bus is significantly less safe than a train." Saying that having a bus bridge would lead to more people opting to drive rather than take either the bus or the train would be a better starting point for safety concerns; it's clear that automobile driving is much, much more dangerous than either bus or train, and it's much easier to defend the position that people will opt to drive rather than deal with transferring from a train to a bus, then back onto the train from the bus hours later.
 
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The burden of proof is on those claiming the bus option is safer, since they're the ones proposing a change in the name of safety. It's very hard to disprove since the necessary statistics aren't available, but that's immaterial since Anderson never proved it in the first place.
 
bms said:
The burden of proof is on those claiming the bus option is safer, since they're the ones proposing a change in the name of safety. It's very hard to disprove since the necessary statistics aren't available, but that's immaterial since Anderson never proved it in the first place.
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Here's what I found. Based on what I could find on the National Transportation Database, buses appear to have less fatalities per passenger mile than intercity trains do. It's plausible that Anderson sees something similar, and truly believes without PTC that trains will be more dangerous than they could be, and doesn't want to carry that liability/risk.

There's also plenty of people that are claiming that buses are more dangerous than trains. That also requires the burden of proof to be on the person making the "more dangerous" accusation, and so far I haven't seen any hard data, at least on the US side, to definitively prove that trains are significantly safer than buses. (Which, by the way, if we're going to take safety as the primary goal, then let's force everyone to fly. That's safer than both, based on what data seems to be available.)

For me, I'd rather focus on getting people out of their own vehicles and onto safer, more sustainable forms of transport. Buses serve as a vital link in many of those areas, and I fear the rhetoric around buses being more dangerous than trains will lead people to a (very false) conclusion that since there's no train on a particular route, they might as well just drive themselves since buses are (in their mind, fed by rhetoric that buses are more dangerous than trains) just as dangerous as driving. It may also lead to legislators not willing to fund those bus links in areas where we do need them, and where we can use them to either serve local needs that a train can't easily serve, or work as a feeder system into train routes.
 
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My planned trip on the Chief this year was cancelled when the Meteor derailed in Savanah. We hoped to take the Chief next year as part of a cross country trip, but if there is a “bus bridge”, we will not take the Chief or any other LD train that would require part of the trip being on a bus.
 
neroden said:
Mr. Cain, I strongly advise that you write an open letter to Mr. Anderson, Mr. Coscia, and Congress explaining this and asking why Mr. Anderson wants to *reduce* the safety of Amtrak passengers by putting them in the much riskier situation of transferring to a bus on the extremely dangerous roads.
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I feel like it's a bit of a stretch to call them "extremely dangerous roads". Maybe it's less safe than a train, but the term "extremely dangerous" seems a bit...extreme.
 
JRR said:
My planned trip on the Chief this year was cancelled when the Meteor derailed in Savanah. We hoped to take the Chief next year as part of a cross country trip, but if there is a “bus bridge”, we will not take the Chief or any other LD train that would require part of the trip being on a bus.
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That was my train! I was on that Meteor!
 
cpotisch said:
neroden said:
Mr. Cain, I strongly advise that you write an open letter to Mr. Anderson, Mr. Coscia, and Congress explaining this and asking why Mr. Anderson wants to *reduce* the safety of Amtrak passengers by putting them in the much riskier situation of transferring to a bus on the extremely dangerous roads.
Click to expand...
I feel like it's a bit of a stretch to call them "extremely dangerous roads". Maybe it's less safe than a train, but the term "extremely dangerous" seems a bit...extreme.
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Well, "extremely dangerous" has to do with one's perception. Personally, I think they are dangerous especially with so many big trucks. Until recently, trains have had a far better safety record than highways. Until recently. Amtrak has had some bad accidents that should never have happened. Also, when you look at statistics involving rail fatalities, sometimes those statistics include highway/rail grade crossing accidents which are often as much highway fatalities as rail fatalities especially where an errant motorist disregards stop signals at a grade crossing.

I can relate one interesting experience I had. One time about 20 years ago I was riding the Chief eastbound late at night over Raton Pass during a really bad bout of snow and freezing rain. Sitting in the dining car we could look out and see all the vehicles that had veered off into the ditch on nearby I-25. We just rolled on as if nothing was happening. One of the diners lifted his glass and said "Here, here! Let's hear it for Amtrak" Sadly, the rail option on this line may soon be a thing of the past in good weather or bad.

Regards,

Fred M. Cain
 
neroden said:
fredmcain said:
Devil's Advocate said:
In my experience poor maintenance, sloppy driving, and proud indifference to safety regulations are all core tenants of America's commercial trucking culture. Not every truck is a future disaster rolling on borrowed time, and some companies do a better job than others of ensuring meaningful compliance, but a lot of them are tempting fate with our lives in the balance.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I know I'm drifting off topic here but there are WAY too many big, dangerous trucks on the highways. And it might just get worse. They are talking about driverless trucks. In my own personal, honest, humble opinion "driverless trucks" should NEVER be allowed on our highways. Think about this for a minute: What if that truck that blew a tire had actually been the leading truck of a four-truck "platoon" with the following three driverless. O.K., so what happens to those following three trucks after he blows a tire and loses control? These are not trains; they can't just automatically dump the air and stop. The American people should begin asking some very serious questions about this before this genie is let out of the bottle 'cause once she's out it might be extremely difficult to put back in again.

Back the Chief: My question is, will passengers really and truly be safer on a bus than on a train operating over a line with an automatic block signal system but no PTC and only a few trains a day in each direction? Really?

Regards,

Fred M. Cain
Click to expand...
Mr. Cain, I strongly advise that you write an open letter to Mr. Anderson, Mr. Coscia, and Congress explaining this and asking why Mr. Anderson wants to *reduce* the safety of Amtrak passengers by putting them in the much riskier situation of transferring to a bus on the extremely dangerous roads.

We can get you the address for Amtrak's board, and you can send the letter certified mail.

We can help you get statistics and additional newspaper articles if you wish to write this letter; I'd be happy to help.
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Neroden,

For what it's worth (probably nothing) I did write to Anderson a while back and received a kind of form letter in return. It was noncommittal but my efforts probably didn't hurt. Personally, I believe that Anderson's plan to truncate the Chief has run into so much opposition that I don't believe he's gonna be able to pull this one off. But at the same time I don't want us to become overconfident, either, 'cause, who knows?

Regards,

FMC
 
cpotisch said:
JRR said:
My planned trip on the Chief this year was cancelled when the Meteor derailed in Savanah. We hoped to take the Chief next year as part of a cross country trip, but if there is a “bus bridge”, we will not take the Chief or any other LD train that would require part of the trip being on a bus.
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That was my train! I was on that Meteor!
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Was that the one last December where they had all the cold weather down south and a frozen switch broke as they backed over it derailing a couple cars?
 
lordsigma said:
cpotisch said:
JRR said:
My planned trip on the Chief this year was cancelled when the Meteor derailed in Savanah. We hoped to take the Chief next year as part of a cross country trip, but if there is a “bus bridge”, we will not take the Chief or any other LD train that would require part of the trip being on a bus.
Click to expand...
That was my train! I was on that Meteor!
Click to expand...
Was that the one last December where they had all the cold weather down south and a frozen switch broke as they backed over it derailing a couple cars?
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That was the trip but it was the first week of January!
 
JRR said:
lordsigma said:
cpotisch said:
JRR said:
My planned trip on the Chief this year was cancelled when the Meteor derailed in Savanah. We hoped to take the Chief next year as part of a cross country trip, but if there is a “bus bridge”, we will not take the Chief or any other LD train that would require part of the trip being on a bus.
Click to expand...
That was my train! I was on that Meteor!
Click to expand...
Was that the one last December where they had all the cold weather down south and a frozen switch broke as they backed over it derailing a couple cars?
Click to expand...
That was the trip but it was the first week of January!
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Ok I guess I had the timing wrong. I know someone who was on the southbound Meteor that night and was over 10 hours late to Miami. In addition to that derailment I remember hearing the weather was causing lots of problems with track and signals and tons of resulting delays and congestion.
 
JRR said:
lordsigma said:
cpotisch said:
JRR said:
My planned trip on the Chief this year was cancelled when the Meteor derailed in Savanah. We hoped to take the Chief next year as part of a cross country trip, but if there is a “bus bridge”, we will not take the Chief or any other LD train that would require part of the trip being on a bus.
Click to expand...
That was my train! I was on that Meteor!
Click to expand...
Was that the one last December where they had all the cold weather down south and a frozen switch broke as they backed over it derailing a couple cars?
Click to expand...
That was the trip but it was the first week of January!
Click to expand...
Yep. 98(3). We were pulling into Savannah but the switch that would have led us to the platform was frozen (it was stuck in the "straight ahead" position and we needed to go left or something), and they weren't able to unfreeze it, so the crew decided that we would continue straight and reverse into the station through an unfrozen switch up ahead. When we backed in, the baggage car rolled over that first switch, which sprung the other way and pulled the last three cars (the baggage and two sleepers) off the rails. We eventually got into NYC 20 hours late, and they had to order pizza to the train for dinner the second day.
 
We were going to LA for a cruise through the Panama Canal and back to Ft Lauderdale. Plan was for a circle trip. Had to fly to LA, a bummer, but the cruise was memorable.
 
We were going to LA for a cruise through the Panama Canal and back to Ft Lauderdale. Plan was for a circle trip. Had to fly to LA, a bummer, but the cruise was memorable.
 
JRR said:
We were going to LA for a cruise through the Panama Canal and back to Ft Lauderdale. Plan was for a circle trip. Had to fly to LA, a bummer, but the cruise was memorable.
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I am planning a similar trip this December. Southwest Chief to LA, then cruise through Panama Canal to Ft. Lauderdale. I am hoping I will not have to use my trip insurance if something happens to the SWC.
 
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I got the insurance because of the trip down through Central America and too risky to take a chance on a medical issue.

Hope it works for you.
 
jis said:
Though not directly about the SWC, but more about the Vermonter, this is a nice article discussing the lay of the land

https://vermontbiz.com/news/2018/september/10/amtrak-services-future-there-canary-coal-mine
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Here's another one from this morning. Let's see if our forum "breaks" the URL again.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-13/amtrak-may-put-passengers-on-buses-in-fight-over-safety-upgrade

Yep! Sure enough! Not sure why this is happening but I'm certain it has something to do with the Amtrak forum.

Let's see if a "TinyURL" works:

https://tinyurl.com/ydcmtqlg
 
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