Amtrak's New "Fresh Choices" Dining on CL & LSL

Ironically, hot meals delivered in frozen form that are nuked/convection ovened before delivery are easier to handle (read overages are easier to use on a later train, within limits of course) for hard to guess numbers for inventory, than fresh food. There is a reason that the burgers in the Cafe don't come with lettuce and tomato and such.

I think pre-ordering facility extended to Coach passengers would be able to address that issue and then all could have fresh and some hot meals too, if Amtrak chooses to go that way.

I am now starting to read reports in the Amtrak Fans group on Facebook about from several passengers on the LSL and CL who appear to have liked the new fare. So the verdict on it is not as unequivocally negative as one would guess hearing about it from most railfans. But as we know tastes vary, so this was to be expected.

Ryan said:

You're being needlessly literal.

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Words have meaning. It is incumbent on the writer to say what he or she means, not to expect that the reader will mentally edit the writing to the author's intention.

Of course, "contemporary and fresh dining choices" is an abomination of word usage.

There isn’t any mental editing needed. He made a cultural reference to both a popular movie and a current food product.

(Hint: he wasn’t literally suggesting that the people eat nothing but Soylent)

benale said:

One hot item should have been kept on the menu for all meals,or at least sleeper passengers should be given a voucher for a microwaved meal in the cafe car. What the hell was Anderson thinking?...like he didnt expect overwhelming negative feedback to this obvious downgrade? Even worse the price of sleepers had not gone down.

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We have a pretty good idea what he was thinking: keep it really simple to start and then add to it as things get sorted out. Now whether it was the right move to strip everything down like that is what is up for debate.

In these type of inquiries, too many times those doing the interviewing hear what they want to hear and miss critical points sometimes listed on written forms. Are they looking for support of their concept or are they looking to improve the passenger experience? Guess we will know once we hear from those who have been doing the experience since the first of June.

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cpotisch said:

Lonestar648 said:

In these type of inquiries, too many times those doing the interviewing hear what they want to hear and miss critical points sometimes listed on written forms. Are they looking for support of their concept or are they looking to improve the passenger experience? Guess we will know once we hear from those who have been doing the experience since the first of June.

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With these kinds of things, I've found that those "out in the field" are just there to give the impression that management cares about what the customer thinks, and the actual data collected is totally ignored. Every once in a while there's an actual good faith effort to improve the experience and listen to customers, but I feel like this isn't one of those times.

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What evidence do you have so far to support your feeling regarding the feedback from the food service from the field? I am not talking of the extremely loud protestations from the known rail enthusiasts, but feedback from run of the mill every day passengers.

Cpotisch has a lot of experience with this type of fake feedback collection. :-(

I’d be interested in hearing about that vast experience.

Ryan said:

I’d be interested in hearing about that vast experience.

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Especially for a 16 year old

TiBike said:

It sounding more and more like the new meals are higher quality than the old-style diner food. Or at least what the old-style stuff had become.

I don't buy the argument that the new menu is too light, on calories or nutrition. Just checked the food facts link. The boxed dinner/lunches run from 1,110 to 1,240 calories (with 29 to 57 grams of protein), and the breakfast is 1,600 calories with 42 grams of protein. That's a whole day's worth of calories and protein in two meals, based on the recommended daily allowance for an adult male.

The menu is generally high in fat, but on the salads at least, it looks like most of it is in the dressing – how much you use is up to you – and the dessert, which you don't have to eat either. That brings down the calorie count, which also leaves room for a third meal in the day.

I hope this menu makes it to the Starlight and Zephyr soon.

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Breakfast is 99g of sugar. That's not nutritious. I don't care how much protein it has. My usual breakfast has far less than 5% of that whether I have an egg and cheese on an English muffin or hot oatmeal with nuts and sweetened with a teaspoon of a natural sugar that has 3g of sugar instead of the 5g of table sugar.

It may be fresh (or as fresh as "protein bars" aka "sugar with protein bars" can be) but there is no choice except to eat this sugary item or that one.

willem said:

Of course, "contemporary and fresh dining choices" is an abomination of word usage.

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Is it such an abomination, though? It's certainly becoming more and more common for restaurants, especially low-to-mid-range restaurants, to not have wait staff, and others that do may remove some of the wait staff interactions to reduce the number of wait staff. Ordering and paying at the counter is becoming quite common, and most of the fast casual concept of restaurant chains even have customers pick up their order at the counter, perhaps even busing their own tables. Having counter service instead of waiter service could be seen as more "contemporary" with those changes.

The entrees also certainly seem fresh; the reports I've read suggest that the food used in them was recently prepared and likely is fresh (lettuce for salads won't last terribly long, especially since it doesn't look like they're using iceberg lettuce. Thus, it seems to be pretty "fresh" as well.

You may certainly disagree with the improvements being a net positive (and until hot options are brought on, I'm still not fully on board with the changes) but this being a contemporary and fresh change, while certainly spinning the change as a positive, does seem to have some basis in the reality of the meals served.

I am still looking for the hot entrees, but have not been able to figure out how to have a fresh and hot Dinner and Breakfast entree with the current crew on board. Having a hot entree brought to the train before departure, then kept hot in convection ovens will not work, the entree will taste bad, especially the breakfast being served 18 hours or so after boxed. So if you can not add more personnel, what are the options other than cold boxes? Contemporary and Fresh is the Theme, no labor used on board the mandate, satisfied customers the goal. I know my way around the commercial kitchen, but this is really difficult. The only real solution is for Congress to reverse the F&B mandate.

jebr said:

willem said:

Of course, "contemporary and fresh dining choices" is an abomination of word usage.

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Is it such an abomination, though? It's certainly becoming more and more common for restaurants, especially low-to-mid-range restaurants, to not have wait staff, and others that do may remove some of the wait staff interactions to reduce the number of wait staff. Ordering and paying at the counter is becoming quite common, and most of the fast casual concept of restaurant chains even have customers pick up their order at the counter, perhaps even busing their own tables. Having counter service instead of waiter service could be seen as more "contemporary" with those changes. The entrees also certainly seem fresh; the reports I've read suggest that the food used in them was recently prepared and likely is fresh (lettuce for salads won't last terribly long, especially since it doesn't look like they're using iceberg lettuce. Thus, it seems to be pretty "fresh" as well. You may certainly disagree with the improvements being a net positive (and until hot options are brought on, I'm still not fully on board with the changes) but this being a contemporary and fresh change, while certainly spinning the change as a positive, does seem to have some basis in the reality of the meals served.

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I'd be hard pressed to name a single restaurant which offers zero hot meals, cannot change anything substantive about your meal, and cannot even combine your preferred entree with a dessert of your own choosing. Even really basic restaurants like Subway can offer hot meals with or without a dozen different ingredients and your choice of cookie. When I think of "fresh and contemporary" I think of carefully paired fusion cuisine, new twists on re-imagined comfort food, and internationally influenced vegetarian meals. I don't think of cold salads and sandwiches from yesterday's kitchen prep. That's not to say I think these meals are horrible, but they honestly seem like like something that should have been stocked in the cafe's refrigerated section rather than presented in a private diner as a full sit down meal for sleeper car passengers.

Heck...even "Subway" restaurants, whose tagline is "eat fresh", heats up some of their sandwiches....

All this nonsense over getting rid of a chef. Just awful. Ain't ridin' these lines no more.

OlympianHiawatha said:

I was just looking at the QANTAS site and it looks like they have gone to box service in Economy:

"No more trays and more meal choices - we've revolutionised the way you eat onboard. The meal service is quicker, with meals being delivered and cleared faster; giving you more time to do the things you want to do.

You can look forward to exciting dishes such as spiced lamb koftas with tomato, Riverina feta and roast potatoes; honey chicken salad with roasted vegetables and farro or yellow curry barramundi with jasmine rice."

But if they can offer hot boxed meals to over 100 pax from airliner galleys, I would think Amtrak should be able to offer hot boxed meals as well! BRING BACK AMLAMB!!!

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Can you really compare airline food service with train food service? Airline food is served by flight attendants, who are aircrew and thus limited in the hours they can work, so for longer flights, they have to carry a complete relief crew. It would be analogous to having the conductors on the train heating and serving meals. Right.

As far as comparable crew sizes, I read a thread on airliners.net that claims canin crew sizes for a 787 that range from 8 (on Norwegian) to 17 (for British AirwaYs). United (which I flew to Beijing) has 11. This would be in addition to the pilot and co-pilot, and they would need to carry spares of those for a long flight.

How does this compare to crew size on a typical Amtrak long distance train? the 787 has a passenger capacity of 250 to 300, a typical Sperliner train (4 coaches, 2 sleepers) has a capacity of about 350.

Of course, the train can carry many more passengers over the trip because it stops a lot along the way.

Something to keep in mind when comparing the airlines. The catering company isn't just cooking and preparing meals for one flight on one airline. Generally, there are several flights with the same menu, this dilutes the overhead costs significantly. Amtrak right now is catering in New York, Washington, and Chicago. and for a small number of passengers. Should the food be better with a small number, well that depends on how much Amtrak is paying per meal as to how much time can be spent preparing each meal.

A thought, Dinner is served soon after departure on both ends of the CL. The LSL is too late out of Chicago, and a mess out of New York. For the CL, Amtrak could have the caterer bring a couple hot meals to be served in the Lounge like the PPC used to do. The LSA could have warming ovens ready when the caterer arrived to keep the meals warm until served in a few hours. This is an idea for Dinner that does not increase the F&B OBS labor costs and offers a fresh hot dinner.

How did Singapore Airlines serve a perfectly good fresh hot meal 16 hours after departure from Newark on its ~19 hour flight to Singapore? Clearly this can be done and is done pretty regularly more than half a day after departure on many ULH flights. A hot breakfast with an Omelette and sausage and potatoes served more than 12 hours into the flight is not that uncommon. I doubt that ability to serve a fresh hot meal 12-15 hours after departure should be an issue, as much as it is being made out to be. I have no idea in what form the food is carried from the flight kitchen to the plane and then on the plane until it is time to serve it. But it is done somehow.

And I think this is possibly where Mr. Anderson's thinking on food service is at - if better food can be done on the airline with less crew and less specialized crew, why can't it be done on Amtrak as well? And I have to agree with him. And for the catering company, I think Amtrak can be just another carrier, just one who happens to be a little further away from the catering kitchen. Truck the meals over and load 'em up, plenty of cities that every Amtrak route goes though that also has airline catering available.

snvboy said:

And I think this is possibly where Mr. Anderson's thinking on food service is at - if better food can be done on the airline with less crew and less specialized crew, why can't it be done on Amtrak as well? And I have to agree with him. And for the catering company, I think Amtrak can be just another carrier, just one who happens to be a little further away from the catering kitchen. Truck the meals over and load 'em up, plenty of cities that every Amtrak route goes though that also has airline catering available.

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Just like airline catering.

Lonestar648 said:

I am still looking for the hot entrees, but have not been able to figure out how to have a fresh and hot Dinner and Breakfast entree with the current crew on board. Having a hot entree brought to the train before departure, then kept hot in convection ovens will not work, the entree will taste bad, especially the breakfast being served 18 hours or so after boxed. So if you can not add more personnel, what are the options other than cold boxes? Contemporary and Fresh is the Theme, no labor used on board the mandate, satisfied customers the goal. I know my way around the commercial kitchen, but this is really difficult. The only real solution is for Congress to reverse the F&B mandate.

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You keep the hot entrees chilled until it is time to heat them. Then you move the entrees in foil packets out of the refrigerator and into the convection oven and turn it on.

I doubt that the hot entrees served toward the end of long-haul flights are kept warm the whole time. Instead, they are kept cold (loaded frozen?) and then reheated at the appropriate time in a convection oven. I figure on an aircraft the entrees are delivered on some sort of rack and stored in the oven itself until it is time to turn it on.

In case it has been a while since you were last on a long-haul flight with complimentary meal service, the flight attendants go down the aisles with a cart. Some levels of the cart have the meal trays with the sides and dessert already on them. Each passenger is asked which entree they want (if there is an option), and the associated foil packeted entree is added to the meal tray. If a SCA has a similar cart, it would make serving hot meals only slightly more complicated (on the upper level, at least) than an all-cold option. But flight attendants usually don't have to carry meals up or down stairs to serve them. A SCA would need to do so.

jis said:

How did Singapore Airlines serve a perfectly good fresh hot meal 16 hours after departure from Newark on its ~19 hour flight to Singapore? Clearly this can be done and is done pretty regularly more than half a day after departure on many ULH flights. A hot breakfast with an Omelette and sausage and potatoes served more than 12 hours into the flight is not that uncommon. I doubt that ability to serve a fresh hot meal 12-15 hours after departure should be an issue, as much as it is being made out to be. I have no idea in what form the food is carried from the flight kitchen to the plane and then on the plane until it is time to serve it. But it is done somehow.

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You'd think Mr. Anderson would know that this is possible, wouldn't you?

Palmetto said:

jis said:

How did Singapore Airlines serve a perfectly good fresh hot meal 16 hours after departure from Newark on its ~19 hour flight to Singapore? Clearly this can be done and is done pretty regularly more than half a day after departure on many ULH flights. A hot breakfast with an Omelette and sausage and potatoes served more than 12 hours into the flight is not that uncommon. I doubt that ability to serve a fresh hot meal 12-15 hours after departure should be an issue, as much as it is being made out to be. I have no idea in what form the food is carried from the flight kitchen to the plane and then on the plane until it is time to serve it. But it is done somehow.

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You'd think Mr. Anderson would know that this is possible, wouldn't you?

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I suspect that is how Amtrak proposes to bring hot entries into the program at some point. It involves a little bit of additional prep training perhaps, than handing out cold boxes. Again, complete speculation on my part. I have neither experience nor any particular insights beyond observing how it is done from the customer's perspective, where I have seen it done.

Simple answer, let Sleeper passengers order from several healthy choices in advance while booking, and serve the meals in the Lounge/Diner just like in Acela FC on the Sacred NEC.

Might be too much common sense for Amtrak where innovation usually involves nickel and dime cuts that are penny wise and pound foolish.