Amtrak's New "Fresh Choices" Dining on CL & LSL

Lonestar648 said:

Basically, Anderson wins with reduced ridership on the LD trains, so a boycott helps Anderson get rid of LD.

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Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.

Most of the discussion here is based on speculations based on assumptions that appear to many to be most consistent with the cryptic messages emanating from Amtrak. There really are very few "facts in evidence" if any, at this time. Definite facts in evidence are anger, resentment, disillusionment etc. But as for what this new Amtrak 2.0 food service is going to turn out to be, including the menus, I suppose we'ill need to wait and see.

Having said that, at this point I think it may be constructive to provide feedback to Amtrak on what we would like Amtrak 2.0 food service to look like. And probably saying "no change" is a feedback that will get ignored, so it is possibly pointless.

Now I await the expected fusillade from DA.

Not having hot meal service on an overnight train, sucks, pure and simple, there is no justification for it.

Amtrak offers good "heat and eat" entree service on Acela First Class (which I use out of Boston), with one attendant (aside from the conductor)

handling what is often a sold out car by Providence.

These type of entrees should be offered on the LD trains that cover just one night.

Via Rail Business Class in their corridor offers meal service as well, but it is far more robust that Acela First Class not just in terms of

entree size, but they also serve snacks and drinks from the rolling carts, and real hot towel service.

Back the issue of 1 night LD trains, the catered service offered on The Ocean also fits the bill and delivers a good product.

On the Halifax bound trains they rotate between several caterers, and on the Montreal bound trains the Westin Hotel provides the catering.

The pictures are from a recent trip, the food is heated on board, as well as plated, and served by a wait staff in the diner.

The diner has one row of tables for 2, and one row of tables for 4.

The pictures is from The Ocean.

The lack of heated meals is perhaps the most constructive feedback we can give Amtrak at this point. Just saying "we like it the way it was" isn't going to be heard, because changes have to be made. They have laid out a clear framework but they will listen to feedback on how to improve things within that framework. As I have said before, they are currently stripping it down to as minimum pain points as possible for staff to see if the concept works, then we will probably see "layers" added onto it, such as hot meals.

Ryan said:

Lonestar648 said:

Basically, Anderson wins with reduced ridership on the LD trains, so a boycott helps Anderson get rid of LD.

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Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.

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This is the internet, who needs facts?

I agree that this sucks, and I agree that we need to move on to some suggestions that could lead to improvements that still could fit within the framework of this program. The program is going to happen whether we like it or not (and we obviously don't).

I think most people seem to agree that making the diner available as a sleeper lounge for the duration of the trip is good. First thing we need to insist on - the lounge is off limits as office space for the conductors, etc. Those fine folks have plenty of other areas they are already using as office space. A ton is being taken away from the sleeping car passenger who is continuing to pay top dollar. Amtrak needs to make it clear that the sleeper lounge is NOT office space, and not a space for any Amtrak employee to spread out supplies. Use the closed off, empty unused kitchen for that.

Next, refine the meal delivery / eating plan. The first thing that should go is the silly notion that everyone's food should be delivered to their room. There are plenty of folks who NEED their food delivered for a variety of reasons including mobility - and there are also a number of people who look forward to escaping their room for meal time. Let us able-bodied who choose to pick up the food do so ourselves. We don't need the SCA to do that for us and become more overworked and grumpy than is often the case already.

The SCA should take everyone's order as they arrive - just as dinner reservations are typically taken today. Give passengers an order form, and explain the choices. The form specifies what the food choice for dinner and/or breakfast - along with where they want to eat it (room or lounge), and when they want each meal (among available time choices). In addition to the dinner/breakfast options - there should be fancy dessert and wine/cheese packages as well - available at alternative times (outside meal times) at an extra charge. We're already spending nearly a grand (or more) for an overnight for a couple - why not offer options (even at an added cost) that will make the experience more enjoyable?

For those who choose to eat in the lounge - there needs to be a designated pickup spot for their food. I don't care where that is - either the sleeper lounge or the regular lounge would both work just fine. During designated meal times, half the lounge would be reserved for passengers who chose to consume their meals there. The other half is always available for true lounge space.

Next - let's tweak just a little the options for breakfast and dinner. For breakfast, add a true traditional continental breakfast option - with a couple of choices of cold cereal and pastry, with some sort of fruit. Make the pastry a little unhealthy (cinnamon roll). There are enough healthy options on the menu - a lot of folks are on vacation and want to be a little bit bad. Also - why not make the same hot breakfast sandwich already available in the lounge one of the choices for breakfast?

For dinner, either add another salad option (maybe a fancy southwest salad or some sort of apple/cranberry/pecan salad) - and something more creative like cold fried chicken, baked beans/potato salad and fruit. Something you might eat at a picnic. Suggest a wine for each of the meal choices.

Lastly - the part that falls outside this program - ditch the booths in half the lounge. Turn half of it into a true lounge - with alternative seating (couches, chairs, etc.). Make the ambience as nice as possible. If the kitchen area is never going to be used to heat food - then do something different with it. Make it a bar area, or a refrigerated area for paid wine/snacks, or something. Maybe this falls under the "reinvesting part of the savings back in the program" side of things. Ultimately, I'd like to see this end up with a dedicated lounge attendant / bar tender - but that falls outside the current program I'm sure.

Ultimately, I want to see a return to hot food on even these 1 night routes. But if that's not going to happen, let's try to get at least a minimal program in place that sleeping car passengers can accept and get SOME value for. Part of the appeal of the Pacific Parlor Car when I took it years ago was the feeling of exclusivity. These new VII Diner / Sleeper Lounges are nice cars - take full advantage of that. I just don't see the current program (as they've previewed in their press release) as being attractive to most sleeping car passengers. Heck, my program might not be that attractive either - but I think it is t least a little better.

AcrossTheOcean said:

Looking at the pictures of the boxed meals, I think I am going to have to bring a lot of extra snacks when I ride the CL in late summer. There is no way the breakfast someone took a picture of will keep my bottomless pit of a 12 year-old from going hungry before 1 in the afternoon. Fortunately I have a few months to think about what to pack.

Do the diner cars have convection ovens? If so, it wouldn't be hard to do hot entrees the way that airlines do on long-haul flights. Have the entrees in single-serving foil containers in a convection oven, heat them up and put them on a tray with cold sides. If the city where the train departs has an airport with long-haul flights, there is also at least one airline caterer nearby that is used to that set-up.

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The superliner dining cars, when first outfitted had complete commercial kitchens. Microwave ovens, convection oven’s, regular oven’s. Commercial dishwashers. Wow

CraigDK said:

Ryan said:

Lonestar648 said:

Basically, Anderson wins with reduced ridership on the LD trains, so a boycott helps Anderson get rid of LD.

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Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.

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This is the internet, who needs facts?

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With all due respect, does anyone have any commitment from Mr. Anderson to preserving the LD network? I've asked this before and didn't get an answer. Are there any quotes from him regarding equipment for the LD network vs corridor trains? Has anyone heard plans for growth of the LD network? After all, cars on the LD trains have been removed over the last few years and there has been no attempt to lengthen them.

While the lack of policy or mention of the LD network doesn't mean he's actively attempting to kill it, there is nothing louder than a stony silence. Mr. Boardman has been gone for quite some time and Mr. Anderson has been on his own enough to make policies. The silence is deafening.

Well... It seems to me that changing food service on a LD train is better than eliminating it like on the Silver Star.

That's certainly not a commitment to LD... But it's a tiny glimmer and honestly better than I was expecting.

Thirdrail7 said:

With all due respect, does anyone have any commitment from Mr. Anderson to preserving the LD network? I've asked this before and didn't get an answer. Are there any quotes from him regarding equipment for the LD network vs corridor trains? Has anyone heard plans for growth of the LD network? After all, cars on the LD trains have been removed over the last few years and there has been no attempt to lengthen them.

While the lack of policy or mention of the LD network doesn't mean he's actively attempting to kill it, there is nothing louder than a stony silence. Mr. Boardman has been gone for quite some time and Mr. Anderson has been on his own enough to make policies. The silence is deafening.

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For what it's worth, I would object equally strenuously to someone saying that Anderson wants to increase LD service. The fact is, we know nothing.

Taking these changes as some kid of proof that he's ready to kill off the trains is just a bridge too far, particularly in the face of other more logical reasons, and the (granted, token) improvements that come along with this. If he were really serious about killing ridership, I don't think that we'd see a sleeping passenger lounge car or free drinks...

As Sherlock Holmes pointed out to Watson - the fact that the dog did not bark is relevant.

Thirdrail7 said:

It will probably work. Remember the talk in the "new equipment" thread. They are attempting to appeal to the younger riders, like Millennials. Locomotive hauled trains with sit down meals are a thing of the past. This isn't your grandma's train. We're just a hop skip and a jump to your city with new, fresh food ideas.

He's not thinking towards the "end to end" rider.

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The talk about millennials reminds me of what I call the Boy Scout Syndrome. Back in the 60's the Boy Scout upper management decided that urban youths was where it's at. So they de-emphasized yokel type activities like hiking, camping, fishing, and swimming. It was a disaster. They alienated their existing base and were not able to interest urbanites as they had hoped. Then there was "new" coke.

I see frequent statistics on AU regarding the small number of "end to end" riders. I might even believe it if the term is taken literally. But what about Naperville to Richmond or Mendota to Fullerton. Not to mention Omaha to Salt Lake City or Topeka to Flagstaff. Plus a lot of city pair in between for which your millennial trains, new, fresh food ideas or not, would be useless (I assume we are talking about under 750 miles corridor trains). Besides, aren't corridor trains the responsibility of the states?

Once you get rid of my grandmother's (actually my) trains, all you have left is the NEC. I would hope that my and all flyover country senators and congressmen would take the attitude that if they are to support the NEC, then Amtrak can't take away their trains. Sure, the NEC may break even above the rails, whatever that means. But I seem to recall a lot of begging in order to fund replacement of the ancient infrastructure: tunnels, track realignment, wires, stations, etc.

From reading the accounts of the recent California meeting, on this and other forums, Anderson didn't make any commitment or offer direct answers regarding long distance service. On the other hand, he put a high priority on improving less than 750-mile corridor service. A reasonable conclusion is that he wants more corridor trains and few long distance ones. Or at least shift resources in that direction.

Personally, I think that's fine. Providing better service to more people is a better use of taxpayer dollars and a better business strategy.

That said, I see the meal service changes on the Capitol Limited and LSL as service improvements, aimed at improving results on those trains. In another thread, it was said end-to-end (or near end-to-end) passengers accounted for 27.5% and 11.4%, respectively, of the trips on those two trains, higher than the 6% systemwide average Anderson cited. It's a fair guess that the profile of those end-to-end passengers is different, too. Maybe more business travellers, of the overnight big city to big city type Anderson referenced in Chicago last year?

Amtrak's current diner service is a product management and branding nightmare, particularly for the solo business traveller who wants to get some work done. Service is inconsistent, ranging from pleasant to actively hostile. Food quality is low at best, and you don't often see the best. The experience is miserable, ranging from a difficult and regimented reservation process to being forced to eat your meal crammed into a booth with three strangers who might not be your idea of congenial companions. If you want companions at all.

Nine trips out out of ten, I'm riding Amtrak for business travel. Granted, I don't do overnight trips for business – on the infrequent occasions I go to Seattle or Denver, I fly. But the new food service plan for the the CL and LSL is as attractive to me as the current system is repulsive. If Anderson is trying to kill those two trains, he's going about it in the wrong way. But I don't think he is.

As for the rest of the long distance system, if he can segment services so that there's two different and profitable business lines – limited land cruises and frequent corridor trains – he's making Amtrak viable for the long run. Which is what a CEO is supposed to do.

jis said:

Most of the discussion here is based on speculations based on assumptions that appear to many to be most consistent with the cryptic messages emanating from Amtrak. There really are very few "facts in evidence" if any, at this time. Definite facts in evidence are anger, resentment, disillusionment etc. But as for what this new Amtrak 2.0 food service is going to turn out to be, including the menus, I suppose we'ill need to wait and see.

Having said that, at this point I think it may be constructive to provide feedback to Amtrak on what we would like Amtrak 2.0 food service to look like. And probably saying "no change" is a feedback that will get ignored, so it is possibly pointless.

Now I await the expected fusillade from DA.

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Good idea constructive suggestions on how they could add to the new program is probably the best route. Speaking of which does Amtrak have a comment or a suggestion email type thing that anyone knows of?

Ryan said:

For what it's worth, I would object equally strenuously to someone saying that Anderson wants to increase LD service. The fact is, we know nothing.

Taking these changes as some kid of proof that he's ready to kill off the trains is just a bridge too far, particularly in the face of other more logical reasons, and the (granted, token) improvements that come along with this. If he were really serious about killing ridership, I don't think that we'd see a sleeping passenger lounge car or free drinks...

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We know certain things:

Altering the dining car service impacts LD service. I didn't see any alterations to the Cafe car service on the corridor states...yet.

Altering the private car operation impacts LD service much more than corridor services.

There have been more cancellations of ENTIRE LD trains due to "projected" weather events for small parts of it. It snows in Montana and South Dakota. Get used to it.

The "First Class" refund/cancellation policy impacts the LD network far more than Corridor services.

The Amfleets are being overhauled. The Acela sets, which were refreshed less than 5 years ago are being refreshed again. How is the refresh going on the LD cars? (crickets)

The elimination of services at stations will have a bigger impact on LD trips as will the fees for baggage.

A case of soda (free sodas...I'll take that over a steak any day) is being used to justify the expense of a brand new car, that is being demoted to lounge service.

These are things that have occurred. We're not even discussing unpublished comments delivered at town hall meetings or quarterly business reports (since they can't be proven and things can change.)

Granted, I can say the charter guidelines will impact corridor service more than LD and the denial of the Downeaster extension impacts a state supported service partner. However, he has at least identified corridor growth as a priority.

It will be interesting to see how ridership shapes up. I'm sure the bad press from the accidents, weather and host interference will be the main reason listed for a dip in ridership but I suspect that the continued cuts in amenities will be a factor.

One only need to look at the Auto train over the last few years to see it.

Summer is approaching.

From RPA's Hotline on Friday:

1. Amtrak’s idea to reduce service on certain national network overnight trains to less than daily service by expanding shorter segments with more than one round trip daily;

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I read a rumor on another forum that one proposal was to make the Builder tri-weekly and increase frequencies between MSP and Chicago. Of course, with the <750 rule I suppose Amtrak would have to get Illinois or Minnesota (less likely Wisconsin) to play ball.

Apples and oranges. With the exception of the NEC, the other corridor services are significantly underwritten by states, and they have a say in the level of cafe car service.

PVD said:

Apples and oranges. With the exception of the NEC, the other corridor services are significantly underwritten by states, and they have a say in the level of cafe car service.

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Aaannd where do most of the trains in the country operate? If you recall, a previous administration recognized that fact and KILLED the cafes on the NEC trains that operated between NYP-WAS for that reason. Next, they removed one cafe for the longer corridor trains. As for state supported services, they pay a percentage of the costs for a train that operates off corridor FROM the corridor.

If the goal is to eliminate F&B losses, why isn't anyone attacking the corridor? Is it for the same reason they say "the corridor covers its costs?"

Heck, most of the major trains stations on the NEC have FOOD COURTS! If someone can travel from MIA-NYP with just a cafe, surely someone traveling between WAS-NYP can survive without a cafe.

chrsjrcj said:

From RPA's Hotline on Friday:

• Amtraks idea to reduce service on certain national network overnight trains to less than daily service by expanding shorter segments with more than one round trip daily;

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I read a rumor on another forum that one proposal was to make the Builder tri-weekly and increase frequencies between MSP and Chicago. Of course, with the <750 rule I suppose Amtrak would have to get Illinois or Minnesota (less likely Wisconsin) to play ball.

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That's my biggest fear... The return of the Tri-weekly. :-/

Chey said:

Devil's Advocate said:

Yes, let us hope and pray that everyone who sees a flaw in Amtrak simply gives up and leaves rather than mention it where some straw man stuffing apologist might see it.

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Apologies, DA, it was callous of me and not a little hypocritical given my kvetching about cancellation penalties about a month ago. I understand that the constant changes are discouraging many who see most or all of them as downgrades. But I will be an Amtrak customer until the day they fold; it's the only form of travel I enjoy. So it's a bit hard for me to understand others who can tolerate other kinds of travel. It was an emotional response and I'm sorry it offended you.

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There’s no need to apologize but anyone who advocates giving Amtrak the benefit of the doubt owes the same benefit to those who criticize Amtrak.

jis said:

Now I await the expected fusillade from DA.

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Have any of my posts been directed at you specifically? If you feel you're in the crosshairs maybe you should stop volunteering as a deflection shield for others. Hard to find sympathy for those who throw themselves upon a grenade only to complain about the blast.

There is only one way to describe this:

Mr. Anderson is an idiot.

He's throwing away revenues faster than costs. Specifically on the LSL, where he has obviously never looked into the numbers.

Dumbass.

Devil's Advocate said:

Bob Dorsch via [email protected] said:

Capitol Limited and lake Shore Limited sleeping car customers to be offered fresh choices for meals this summer

WASHINGTON Amtrak will offer contemporary and fresh dining choices for sleeping car customers, instead of traditional dining car service, embarking aboard its Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited trains starting June 1.

Sleeping car customers will choose meals delivered to their Bedrooms or Roomettes or eaten in a private café or lounge car and entrees such as:

• Lunch & Dinner: Chilled beef tenderloin, Vegan wrap, Chicken Caesar salad, or Turkey club sandwich.
• Breakfast: Assorted breakfast breads with butter, cream cheese and strawberry jam; Greek yogurt and sliced seasonal fresh fruit plate.

These meals will continue to be included in the sleeping car fare and are delivered to the trains just prior to origination, eliminating on-board preparation. Customers will also be offered unlimited soft beverages, a complimentary serving of beer, wine or a mixed-drink and an amenity kit. A Kosher meal continues to be available with advance notice.
Our plan is to provide new and fresh food choices in a contemporary way for these overnight trains, said Bob Dorsch, Vice President of the Amtrak Long Distance Service Line. Our continued success depends on increasing customer satisfaction while becoming more efficient.

Dorsch said this enhancement will continue to be refined and we look forward to hearing from our customers.

The Capitol Limited (Trains 29 & 30) operates daily between Washington, D.C., and Chicago, via Pittsburgh and Cleveland. The Lake Shore Limited (Trains 48 & 49) typically operates daily between Chicago and New York, with a section to and from Boston (Trains 448 & 449).

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Link: https://media.amtrak.com/2018/04/new-contemporary-dining-soon-two-amtrak-routes/

Admin note:

The now closed topic "Chefs being removed off the Capitol Limited" can be found here.

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To repeat: Anderson is an idiot.

They've just eliminated breakfast on the LSL. I'm actually allergic to their yogurt and I can't eat bread or fruit. I guess it's carry my own cooler from now on. Doesn't count against the carryon limit and I will tell them it's an ADA accomodation if they challenge me.

I think there may be some more certified mail coming his way soon.

Ryan said:

“Destroy” is a bit over the top, I think. We’re talking about a sub-18 hour trip that you’re asleep for the majority of.

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Destroy is exactly correct. There is no longer breakfast service on the LSL.

While I will bring my own cooler and acquire eggs and ice in Chicago, many people will simply fly.

PaulM said:

Thirdrail7 said:

It will probably work. Remember the talk in the "new equipment" thread. They are attempting to appeal to the younger riders, like Millennials. Locomotive hauled trains with sit down meals are a thing of the past. This isn't your grandma's train. We're just a hop skip and a jump to your city with new, fresh food ideas.

He's not thinking towards the "end to end" rider.

Click to expand...

The talk about millennials reminds me of what I call the Boy Scout Syndrome. Back in the 60's the Boy Scout upper management decided that urban youths was where it's at. So they de-emphasized yokel type activities like hiking, camping, fishing, and swimming. It was a disaster. They alienated their existing base and were not able to interest urbanites as they had hoped. Then there was "new" coke.

I see frequent statistics on AU regarding the small number of "end to end" riders. I might even believe it if the term is taken literally. But what about Naperville to Richmond or Mendota to Fullerton. Not to mention Omaha to Salt Lake City or Topeka to Flagstaff.

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Syracuse to Chicago. Rochester to Chicago. Buffalo to Chicago. Albany to Chicago.

Philly Amtrak Fan said:

districtRich said:

I wish people would understand that if most of America knew that we were getting a freshly cooked steak for dinner and scrambled eggs in the morning on the train that was subsidized by tax dollars that this all would have been cut long ago. Believe it or not this actually is about transportation and not elaborate meals.

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This goes back to the assumption that transportation and elaborate meals are a package deal and you can't have LD transportation without them. Anderson is trying to disprove that statement, at least on the CL and LSL. If RailwayAge is to be believed and Anderson is trying to slowly kill LD by driving away customers by "cheapening" the product, then if AU and RPA/NARP members actually boycott these trains because there's no steak and eggs then Anderson wins (ridership goes down, Anderson says no one rides them, and there's justification to get rid of them). But if you continue to ride the trains despite "sub-standard food", Anderson also wins because he's proven that you can have LD trains without hot food.

The latest RPA Hotline has more comments about this topic than I've ever seen from a Hotline before and of course this topic has 13 pages of comments. Maybe all this energy and resources can be better spent on saving the trains themselves (and starting some new ones or restarting some old ones) than the food on them.

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Anderson's going to be mighty unhappy about the mess in the rooms. Might bring my own stove and use it.