Emp Serv to GCT, LSL NYP Suspended, Other NYP Changes 2018

PRR 60 said:

Wouldn't it have been nice if the work planned for Pittsburgh had been performed allowing cars to be efficiently transferred to and from the Pennsylvanian and the Capitol Limited. Amtrak could have rerouted the Lake Shore via Philadelphia and Pittsburgh on the schedule of the Pennsylvanian and, between PGH and CHI on the back of the Capitol with no host railroad impact and minimal Amtrak cost impact.

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What is the "work planned at Pittsburgh?"

PaTrainFan said:

PRR 60 said:

Wouldn't it have been nice if the work planned for Pittsburgh had been performed allowing cars to be efficiently transferred to and from the Pennsylvanian and the Capitol Limited. Amtrak could have rerouted the Lake Shore via Philadelphia and Pittsburgh on the schedule of the Pennsylvanian and, between PGH and CHI on the back of the Capitol with no host railroad impact and minimal Amtrak cost impact.

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What is the "work planned at Pittsburgh?"

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A Performance Improvement Plan prepared for the Capitol Limited included a proposal to add cars to the Pennsylvanian that would be attached to the Capitol Limited at Pittsburgh and continue on to Chicago. In order to do that without having a switcher and crew at Pittsburgh, an existing stub-end track at Pittsburgh station would have to be connected to the westbound through track with a new switch. This work would be done by Norfolk Southern and paid by Amtrak. For whatever reason, the work was not done, and the through car proposal died.

dlagrua said:

MikefromCrete said:

This is for a limited time to allow for needed work at Penn Station and other locations. New York bound passengers will change trains at Albany. It will all work out. Running through cars on the Pennsylvanian/Capitol Limited is a good idea, but there has been absolutely no progress on the switch needed in Pittsburgh, so I think Amtrak has no interest in ever doing the work, so that will not never happen. I highly doubt if a large number of people will do the long route to Chicago via the Cardinal. Most passengers will go to GCT, get on a train and then transfer at Albany. When the work is done, the LSL will resume its regular route and life will go on.

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How do you handle people with their carry bags on plus two regular size baggage pieces?

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The same way you handle it now from your front door to the train station. It’s not like the difference in trains makes you carry *more* stuff.

The LSL has had a 1 hour+ layover in ALB. Virtually all of the trips I've taken, there is a Regional in the Albany station when the LSL is there laying over, heading to NYC. I've always thought about jumping on that Regional and beating the LSL to Penn Station. Now it looks like that will happen. Long story short--transferring from LSL to a Regional heading to NYC at ALB is a nothingburger (questions of luggage aside. Pack accordingly?)

NO ONE is arguing that the track work at NYP should not be done just because of the LSL. What we are saying is that the LSL carries a ton of people from a huge metropolis to another quite big metropolis, where many people have to connect to get to many western cities. This adds in another transfer. People still have to get to GCT, and then transfer in ALB, and many AGAIN in CHI.

cpotisch said:

NO ONE is arguing that the track work at NYP should not be done just because of the LSL. What we are saying is that the LSL carries a ton of people from a huge metropolis to another quite big metropolis, where many people have to connect to get to many western cities. This adds in another transfer, people still have to get to GCT, and then transfer in ALB, and AGAIN in CHI.

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Indeed they will.

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So what?

Hotblack Desiato said:

cpotisch said:

NO ONE is arguing that the track work at NYP should not be done just because of the LSL. What we are saying is that the LSL carries a ton of people from a huge metropolis to another quite big metropolis, where many people have to connect to get to many western cities. This adds in another transfer, people still have to get to GCT, and then transfer in ALB, and AGAIN in CHI.

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Indeed they will.
...

So what?

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The answer to your question is in that post.

Question: is Sunnyside completely inaccessible to Grand Central, or just impractical to get to?

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cpotisch said:

Question: is Sunnyside completely inaccessible to Grand Central, or just impractical to get to?

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Take a look at NYC’s existing railroad routes and try to find a routing that doesn’t need a train to turn around enroute to the yard.
Edit to add that this is an artifact from the old New York Central and Pennsylvania Railroad rivalry.

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cpotisch said:

Question: is Sunnyside completely inaccessible to Grand Central, or just impractical to get to?

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"Impractical" is putting it mildly. You'd have to haul the train from GCT up to New Rochelle, then back in across the Hell Gate bridge. Alternatively, I suppose you could also do the shuffle occasionally used when the West Side Connector is closed (along the shore of the East River), but I suspect that's even more convoluted.

One interesting solution would be to run the lsl chi-cle-pittsburgh-nyp. Provides a one seat ride and only leaves out Erie.

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fixj said:

If they do move on this , do we have any idea of the dates? I'm reserved on the LSL in late may NYP to CHI.

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IF this occurs, it will happen at some point after (though close to) Memorial Day and last until Labor Day.

cpotisch said:

dlagrua said:

I don't see this as a good move for Amtrak. The LSL is one of Amtrak's most crowded trains and the New York-Chicago passengers will be left with the 3 day Cardinal as the only choice. Problem is that the Cardinal is a small train with one or two sleepers, a cafe car and maybe three coaches. That train could not possibly take the additional passenger load. Moving the LSL temporarily to Grand Central station makes the most sense.

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Exactly! The tiny, 3-day, frequently sold out Cardinal, would take on the passenger load of a LONG, DAILY, frequently sold out train. There are a lot of people who want a one-seat ride from NYC to Chicago. This will interfere with all of them.

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OlympianHiawatha said:

If this pans out, hopefully someone at Amtrak will figure out how to beef up the consists on the Cardinal and Cap to get pax to Washington and then run them on up to NYC via Regional or Acela.

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And what makes you so sure the Cardinal will still operate to NYP during this outage?

cpotisch said:

So is this whole thing confirmed or just very likely?

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Extremely likely but there are still logistical issues being ironed out. We were talking about it in the Empire Service Trains to GCT? thread. This also impacts other trains. I've requested a merge.

RPC said:

cpotisch said:

Question: is Sunnyside completely inaccessible to Grand Central, or just impractical to get to?

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"Impractical" is putting it mildly. You'd have to haul the train from GCT up to New Rochelle, then back in across the Hell Gate bridge. Alternatively, I suppose you could also do the shuffle occasionally used when the West Side Connector is closed (along the shore of the East River), but I suspect that's even more convoluted.

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If they were going to do all of that, they could just load it at NYP and use that route to proceed to CHI. However, Metro-North is not in favor of this move.

Steve4031 said:

One interesting solution would be to run the lsl chi-cle-pittsburgh-nyp. Provides a one seat ride and only leaves out Erie.

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And BUF,SYR,UCA,SDY,ALB,POU and CRT. It's not like those aren't MAJOR stops or anything!

Thirdrail7 said:

fixj said:

If they do move on this , do we have any idea of the dates? I'm reserved on the LSL in late may NYP to CHI.

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IF this occurs, it will happen at some point after (though close to) Memorial Day and last until Labor Day.

cpotisch said:

dlagrua said:

I don't see this as a good move for Amtrak. The LSL is one of Amtrak's most crowded trains and the New York-Chicago passengers will be left with the 3 day Cardinal as the only choice. Problem is that the Cardinal is a small train with one or two sleepers, a cafe car and maybe three coaches. That train could not possibly take the additional passenger load. Moving the LSL temporarily to Grand Central station makes the most sense.

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Exactly! The tiny, 3-day, frequently sold out Cardinal, would take on the passenger load of a LONG, DAILY, frequently sold out train. There are a lot of people who want a one-seat ride from NYC to Chicago. This will interfere with all of them.

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OlympianHiawatha said:

If this pans out, hopefully someone at Amtrak will figure out how to beef up the consists on the Cardinal and Cap to get pax to Washington and then run them on up to NYC via Regional or Acela.

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And what makes you so sure the Cardinal will still operate to NYP during this outage?

cpotisch said:

So is this whole thing confirmed or just very likely?

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Extremely likely but there are still logistical issues being ironed out. We were talking about it in the Empire Service Trains to GCT? thread. This also impacts other trains. I've requested a merge.

RPC said:

cpotisch said:

Question: is Sunnyside completely inaccessible to Grand Central, or just impractical to get to?

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"Impractical" is putting it mildly. You'd have to haul the train from GCT up to New Rochelle, then back in across the Hell Gate bridge. Alternatively, I suppose you could also do the shuffle occasionally used when the West Side Connector is closed (along the shore of the East River), but I suspect that's even more convoluted.

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If they were going to do all of that, they could just load it at NYP and use that route to proceed to CHI. However, Metro-North is not in favor of this move.

Steve4031 said:

One interesting solution would be to run the lsl chi-cle-pittsburgh-nyp. Provides a one seat ride and only leaves out Erie.

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And BUF,SYR,UCA,SDY,ALB,POU and CRT. It's not like those aren't MAJOR stops or anything!

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True. I said interesting from a railfan point of view. Imho the pax traveling from those cities to nyc have several choies and prefer one seat ride. Im not sure of the ridership ftom those cities to chicago.

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Steve4031 said:

One interesting solution would be to run the lsl chi-cle-pittsburgh-nyp. Provides a one seat ride and only leaves out Erie.

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I gotta say, I think that would be even more disruptive than just leaving out NYP-ALB. There are a lot of important stops on the LSL, so I don't think a major Lake Shore route change is the way to go.

Posts regarding the 2018 Empire Service changes and the Lake Shore Limited NYP suspension have been merged into this topic. Posts regarding the 2017 Empire Service changes have split into a new topic and closed. The 2017 topic can be found here:

Empire Service to GCT Summer 2017

Is the balloon loop the main reason LD trains have to go through Sunnyside? Couldn't they be restocked and cleaned elsewhere?

cpotisch said:

Is the balloon loop the main reason LD trains have to go through Sunnyside? Couldn't they be restocked and cleaned elsewhere?

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Yes, like Rensselaer with a maintenance establishment. LD trains require more than just cleaning and restocking. It is important to have the capability to make minor repairs like fix broken HV units and toilets and even occasionally substitute cars that are bad ordered.

Linen service and food for diner are both SSYD items.

jis said:

cpotisch said:

Is the balloon loop the main reason LD trains have to go through Sunnyside? Couldn't they be restocked and cleaned elsewhere?

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Yes, like Rensselaer with a maintenance establishment. LD trains require more than just cleaning and restocking. It is important to have the capability to make minor repairs like fix broken HV units and toilets and even occasionally substitute cars that are bad ordered.

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So there really is no way even remotely doable way to get it from Sunnyside to GCT. Darn. I would have thought Amtrak could find a way for such a profitable train. For many passengers who already have to transfer in CHI, a second transfer is a dealbreaker. The problem is that some people won't want to change trains multiple times. So I think that this summer, some cross-country passengers just won't take Amtrak.

There is a way, but it is time consuming and would not be acceptable to Metro North, whose track the special move would have to take place on.

cpotisch said:

jis said:

cpotisch said:

Is the balloon loop the main reason LD trains have to go through Sunnyside? Couldn't they be restocked and cleaned elsewhere?

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Yes, like Rensselaer with a maintenance establishment. LD trains require more than just cleaning and restocking. It is important to have the capability to make minor repairs like fix broken HV units and toilets and even occasionally substitute cars that are bad ordered.

Click to expand...

So there really is no way even remotely doable way to get it from Sunnyside to GCT. Darn. I would have thought Amtrak could find a way for such a profitable train. For many passengers who already have to transfer in CHI, a second transfer is a dealbreaker. The problem is that some people won't want to change trains multiple times. So I think that this summer, some cross-country passengers just won't take Amtrak.

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I am sure Amtrak is run by people whoa re quite cognizant of such issues way more than you or I. However, far be it from me to take away the joys of being armchair Amtrak CEO

Wow... I didn't realize this was the end of the world.

Seriously folks, you realize that the Boston Section has routinely had to change trains at Albany and... no one died.

Is it inconvenient? Sure. It's also inconvenient in the reverse.... i.e. folks in Albany who want to take say the Silver Service, Crescent or other trains where they have baggage but ALB-NYP doesn't provide it (other than the LSL which is a non-starter for same day baggage).

Will it impact ridership? I'm sure it will, a bit. But all the other suggestions, really start to complicate things even more.

People will survive and NYP will be better for it.

Would it be possible for the train to leave NYP through some different exit track and loop back around or something?

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cpotisch said:

Would it be possible for the train to leave NYP through some different exit track and loop back around or something?

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Asked and answered.

Thirdrail7 said:

RPC said:

cpotisch said:

Question: is Sunnyside completely inaccessible to Grand Central, or just impractical to get to?

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Click to expand...

"Impractical" is putting it mildly. You'd have to haul the train from GCT up to New Rochelle, then back in across the Hell Gate bridge. Alternatively, I suppose you could also do the shuffle occasionally used when the West Side Connector is closed (along the shore of the East River), but I suspect that's even more convoluted.

Click to expand...

If they were going to do all of that, they could just load it at NYP and use that route to proceed to CHI. However, Metro-North is not in favor of this move.

Click to expand...

cpotisch said:

jis said:

cpotisch said:

Is the balloon loop the main reason LD trains have to go through Sunnyside? Couldn't they be restocked and cleaned elsewhere?

Click to expand...

Yes, like Rensselaer with a maintenance establishment. LD trains require more than just cleaning and restocking. It is important to have the capability to make minor repairs like fix broken HV units and toilets and even occasionally substitute cars that are bad ordered.

Click to expand...

So there really is no way even remotely doable way to get it from Sunnyside to GCT. Darn. I would have thought Amtrak could find a way for such a profitable train. For many passengers who already have to transfer in CHI, a second transfer is a dealbreaker. The problem is that some people won't want to change trains multiple times. So I think that this summer, some cross-country passengers just won't take Amtrak.

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Kind of hard to run a train if there aren't tracks between the two points. The only way to do it would be to deadhead the train up to New Rochelle on MetroNorth, then down over the Hell's Gate Bridge into Sunnyside.

You are correct in that there will some, probably appreciable, passenger drop off. Whether or not a transfer is reasonable, a subject of discussion here, the plain fact is when you have transfers, you lose ridership.

Side question, it is reasonable to run up to Albany without food service. What about the Empire Service trains that go to Buffalo and the Maple Leaf? Those are long runs. How would they handle food service if they are running into GCT?