Amtrak train with GOP congressional members hits truck (1/31/18)

Carolina Special said:

And today was a PR disaster for Amtrak. Who in their right mind wants to subsidize train service that puts people in danger on a regular basis? There were spouses on the train, not just Congress people.

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You raise a very good point. The train was right were it was supposed to be,,,yet the truck ended up right in front of it. Who in their right mind would indeed want to subsidize a service that puts people in danger on a regular basis?

Therefore, we should stop subsidizing the roads and highways. With all of the car, truck and bus accidents everyday, it is indeed true that no one in their right mind would want to subsidize something as expensive and expansive as a highway system. Why, these drivers are even getting in the way of trains...routinely....daily.

Who remembers the Sunday drive? that used to be fun. I used to tell my friends how fun they used to be, but with all the idiots on the road, and their apologists, I'm not likely to do it again. There are spouses and children on those roads....not just congress people!!!!!

It has been really fun chatting with you Carolina Special. I don't believe we've seen in you in many other grade crossing/ train vs vehicle threads. Can we look forward to your presence in the next thread, or is this a cameo?

Carolina Special said:

For a VIP charter train like this, would it make any sense to run an separate engine a mile or two ahead to make sure the track is clear? With the separate lead engine having special signage to let people know the main train was following. Like “You will die if you don’t wait!”.

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We do have special signage near crossings. They often look like this:



They tend to be accompanied by huge flashy lights and big stripey gates and loud dingy bells so that people know a big deathly train is about to cross.

Carolina Special said:

The drone provides visibility of the track ahead for obstacles like idiots running the tracks that the engineer won’t see until too late. The horn is just an added bonus.

And today was a PR disaster for Amtrak. Who in their right mind wants to subsidize train service that puts people in danger on a regular basis? There were spouses on the train, not just Congress people.

I told someone on that train how much fun train travel was a couple of years ago. I’m not likely to do that again.

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Why is it a p.r. disaster for Amtrak. Seems it's more a p.r. disaster for the garbage truck company. This is just another grade crossing accident.

The train didn't put anybody in danger, the garbage truck driver did. Perhaps those REpublicans on board will now be more inclined to spend money on grade separations and other grade crossing improvements.

SarahZ said:

They tend to be accompanied by huge flashy lights and big stripey gates and loud dingy bells so that people know a big deathly train is about to cross.

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SarahZ,

I regret to inform you that I can't see that sign without a drone accompanying it. Perhaps we should have a drone hover over RXR sign and another drone at every grade crossing in the country. If someone attempts to run the crossing, this will happen:



At least the train will be saved.

Carolina Special said:

Another idea which could work on all the trains. Run a drone ahead of the train to see if the crossing is clear. A drone with a loud horn that could hover over the crossing if it looks like somebody is going to do something stupid.

The drones should be relatively cheap. Infrared for night time work may add to the cost, though.

SWB would have to increase for whoever is piloting the drones, whether from the cab or central office. Should be an offset by reduction in expense for crashed engines and passenger cars. Plus lives saved.

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How about putting these retracting arms at each crossing, so no one can get on the tracks, and also include lights and horns, so even if you can't see the arms, you can stop and be prepared for the oncoming train. We can then form a community outreach organization, let's call it operation red block, to teach kids in towns with grade crossings to stop when they see the flashing lights, the cross bars and the horns.

Oh wait. You mean we're already doing that?

Thirdrail7 said:

SarahZ,

I regret to inform you that I can't see that sign without a drone accompanying it. Perhaps we should have a drone hover over RXR sign and another drone at every grade crossing in the country. If someone attempts to run the crossing, this will happen:

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You are one of my favorite humans.

"....Layne told The Associated Press that he has recently seen lines of cars stopped at the crossing, with the crossing arms lowered even though no train was approaching. He said motorists would get out of their cars to help guide other motorists around the malfunctioning arms so they could cross the tracks.

Layne says he has seen the arms stay down for hours. He also says he saw a man examining the crossing arms this week..."

https://www.wsls.com/news/national/train-carrying-gop-lawmakers-to-policy-retreat-hits-truck

Just a cameo, Third Rail. I would note that the solution for roads and highways is coming. Before too long, we’ll have self-driving cars. And companies, not just governments, seem eager to fund these. At some point shortly after that, driving your own car will be outlawed, first on the major highways and then later on the secondary roads. Accident problem solved, except for those poor police departments that rely on tickets for funding. And if the car will drive you there by itself and deal with traffic, who needs to take the train?[emoji4]. Amtrak traffic seems like it will take a hit, at the margin anyway. And there ain’t much margin to lose.

SarahZ, I don’t know about the Midwest, but in rural Virginia we have a lot of crossings which don’t have huge flashy lights, big stripey gates and loud dingy bells. This includes a good part of the Cardinal route, which I’ve driven along. I guess we’re just backwards.[emoji4]

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akbrian said:

"....Layne told The Associated Press that he has recently seen lines of cars stopped at the crossing, with the crossing arms lowered even though no train was approaching. He said motorists would get out of their cars to help guide other motorists around the malfunctioning arms so they could cross the tracks.

Layne says he has seen the arms stay down for hours. He also says he saw a man examining the crossing arms this week..."

https://www.wsls.com/news/national/train-carrying-gop-lawmakers-to-policy-retreat-hits-truck

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Can you change Human Nature for cases like this? I seriously doubt it.

Solution #1: Have dedicated rail for Amtrak, and have Amtrak keep up the signage, signals and crossing arms along it's route.

Solution #2: Nationalize all railroad track and have the Govt. be in charge of keeping up the signals and crossing arms and signage.

Assuming we can find an extra trillion lying around somewhere...

Carolina Special said:

SarahZ, I don’t know about the Midwest, but in rural Virginia we have a lot of crossings which don’t have huge flashy lights, big stripey gates and loud dingy bells. This includes a good part of the Cardinal route, which I’ve driven along. I guess we’re just backwards.

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Yeah, but this one did, so that's not terribly relevant.

SarahZ said:

We do have special signage near crossings. They often look like this:

{ZOMGXBOXHEUGE image removed}

They tend to be accompanied by huge flashy lights and big stripey gates and loud dingy bells so that people know a big deathly train is about to cross.

Click to expand...

Thirdrail7 said:

I regret to inform you that I can't see that sign without a drone accompanying it. Perhaps we should have a drone hover over RXR sign and another drone at every grade crossing in the country. If someone attempts to run the crossing, this will happen:

Click to expand...

SarahZ said:

You are one of my favorite humans.

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You're both in the running for Bestest Human Ever.

Carolina Special said:

SarahZ, I don’t know about the Midwest, but in rural Virginia we have a lot of crossings which don’t have huge flashy lights, big stripey gates and loud dingy bells. This includes a good part of the Cardinal route, which I’ve driven along. I guess we’re just backwards.[emoji4]

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No, but stop signs, RR Crossing signs, visible railroad tracks, a loud train horn, and flashing ditch lights on the loco should be a clue that you should 1) stop to check for a train and 2) definitely stay stopped if you see a train.

I don't see how a special, slow-moving loco with a sign is going to add any clarity to the situation. There are plenty of signs already.

Sarah and Ryan: get some higher standards!!

Carolina Special said:

And today was a PR disaster for Amtrak. I told someone on that train how much fun train travel was a couple of years ago. I’m not likely to do that again.

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Speaking of PR disasters and not having fun, most have overlooked the fact that 51(31) and 50(30) were caught up in this mess. The bus-bridge has been completed. 51(31) is currently 4'27" down at CLF while 50(30) is down 3'58" approaching MSS.

Oh, I’ve already moved on from the lead train idea. We need to fix all passenger trains, not just the VIP ones. Was just throwing it out as an idea.

Drones seem more workable. Besides the freights like BNSF are already using them for track inspections. Why can’t this expanded to active train operations?

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And I do respect Third Rail and SarahZ a lot. Which doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything they say. Just most of it[emoji4]

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what about just fund eliminating many of the grade crossings and closing the least traveled crossings.

The drone idea doesn't work when the railroad passes along the property line of an airport, or a DOD facility, etc. There are also the communications towers the drones have to avoid. Also, how many people are needed to operate drones 24x7x365. Drones seem like a temporary fix, more of a band-aid when a permanent solution is desperately needed.

Carolina Special said:

Oh, I’ve already moved on from the lead train idea. We need to fix all passenger trains, not just the VIP ones. Was just throwing it out as an idea.

Drones seem more workable. Besides the freights like BNSF are already using them for track inspections. Why can’t this expanded to active train operations?

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Shhh. It's already hard enough around here being a political conservative and a train fan. Don't make it harder for us. I'd love to find a drone with a 72-hour battery life that can withstand all weather conditions and ... tunnels.
Here's the deal about THIS incident from the reports I've read: Witnesses have stated that this particular grade crossing (the only one in Crozet, WV - the other crossings are not at grade) had a malfunctioning gate. It had the equipment, but it wasn't working right. It was known to fail often in the DOWN position - sometimes for hours. I know that here in Savannah, if there is a malfunctioning gate, a call to CSX immediately warns all locomotive engineers to slow down and a technician is dispatched immediately. Now, of course, in a city, there are more technicians available at the drop of a hat than in Crozet, WV, but at least the engineers would know and within an hour or two, someone would be out there figuring out why.

The problem then lies in the fact that people are Pavlov'd into thinking that EVERY time the gates are down, it's a problem, so they are conditioned to go around. Not smart - just human nature. Don't know where these guys in the garbage truck were headed, but I'm sure taking a 2 1/2 mile detour seemed pretty inconvenient at the time.

How useful are drones in inclement weather?

SarahZ said:

Carolina Special said:

SarahZ, I don’t know about the Midwest, but in rural Virginia we have a lot of crossings which don’t have huge flashy lights, big stripey gates and loud dingy bells. This includes a good part of the Cardinal route, which I’ve driven along. I guess we’re just backwards.[emoji4]

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No, but stop signs, RR Crossing signs, visible railroad tracks, a loud train horn, and flashing ditch lights on the loco should be a clue that you should 1) stop to check for a train and 2) definitely stay stopped if you see a train.

I don't see how a special, slow-moving loco with a sign is going to add any clarity to the situation. There are plenty of signs already.

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Not to mention that the lone locomotive with the sign could not be followed so closely by the special train such that the driver of the truck would not be able to still drive around the gates in front of the special train - or in front of the lone locomotive with the sign for that matter.

The only thing that would work is those retractable barriers that would positively stop a truck if it tried to cross.

jb

Carolina Special said:

Oh, I’ve already moved on from the lead train idea. We need to fix all passenger trains, not just the VIP ones. Was just throwing it out as an idea.

Drones seem more workable. Besides the freights like BNSF are already using them for track inspections. Why can’t this expanded to active train operations?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

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So what kind of drone are you suggesting, and what would they do? Perhaps you mean a military drone that could blow up a vehicle if it tried to go around the gates?

jb

I was thinking just that. Drones that fire little RPGs LOL! That'l teach 'em

VentureForth said:

... this particular grade crossing (the only one in Crozet, WV - the other crossings are not at grade) ...

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Invest in a daily Cardinal, and a second frequency, with improvements on the route, like eliminating more grade crossings.

The cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak (including more grade-separated crossings).

Edited when I finally recalled the right word. LOL.

Carolina Special said:

The drone provides visibility of the track ahead for obstacles like idiots running the tracks that the engineer won’t see until too late. The horn is just an added bonus.

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Yeah, you can go ahead and fund that out of your own wallet as well.

Carolina Special said:

Today was a PR disaster for Amtrak. Who in their right mind wants to subsidize train service that puts people in danger on a regular basis?

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What exactly did Amtrak do (or fail to do) in order to bring about this "PR disaster?" Seems like it's the owner/operator/maintainer of the truck that was fouling the crossing that should be blamed for this, not Amtrak. I'm not sure why your friends would choose to blame Amtrak anyway but I trust that you know them better than we do.

Carolina Special said:

I told someone on that train how much fun train travel was a couple of years ago. I’m not likely to do that again.

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Sounds like this "PR disaster" is really just you feeling embarrassed about sticking your neck out.

As someone who has spent a year in the signal department I can say a few things.

1. If the signal department isn't aware of a malfunctioning crossing they aren't able to respond to it. The required test is a 30 day test. I remember on Carolina Ave we had a crossing that liked to activate with no train around it at a certain time each day. And if you weren't around when it happened you wouldn't know unless someone would call. And that crossing it would activate for two minutes then it would stop.

2. It should be a fairly close response time across the country because signal maintainers generally have a territory where I was of 30-40 miles of track before the next one's territory.

Where can it be improved if when you see a malfunction that you phone it in. The only reason we caught Carolina avenue's crossing was because someone at the bakery across the tracks phoned it in after observing the 4pm ritual.

As how to stop people from going around lowered gates. What about those traffic blockers that are in DC around the Capitol at every crossing. Then just have them set to pop up when the gate lowers. But place them in a way that a car in the crossing can run over them to escape, but doesn't let them in. Costly but way 100 percent more effective then a drone solution.

the operation of the road blockers could be complicated and a maintenance nightmare as well. Dust, dirt, sand, small gravel from heavy traffic will fall into the recessed area most likely fouling the mechanism. The barriers around the Capitol do not have the same number of cars and trucks, nor are they traveling at the higher speed. Also, they have service personnel available 24x7 almost on site. Winters could be even worse. So after a good barrier system is designed and trouble shot, what are the install costs and monthly service costs? In the end they may be slightly cheaper than eliminating the crossing, but in the end less expensive and eliminating the crossing is nearly zero on going RR maintenance.