HHP-8 starting to be retired now?

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Forgot to cover EMUs under CAT. When Amtrak ( PC) started tests of the original Metroliners it was soon found that under the variable tension ( PRR) CAT with more than 3 PANs on a train at certain high speeds would set up standing waves on the contact wires that would foul the PANs. Now NJT EMUs have been limited to 100 MPH not necessarily for that reason but ? ?. We all know the excessive costs of getting constant tension CAT on the NEC. Needs to be done but ? ?

Constant Tension CAT does not have those problems as seen world wide that operate EMUs.. That may be one reason for NJT, , MARC, and maybe SEPTA to use loco hauled trains up to 125 MPH ?
 
I apologize for bringing up an old thread, but I had a question and I thought it would make more sense to post it here instead of creating a new topic.

I'm on NER 163 right now, and we just left WIL. Passing the Wilmington, DE shops I saw a few HHP-8s in the yard. What does Amtrak plan to do with them?

EDIT: Originally I said I saw them in the Bear, DE shops but it looks like it was the Wilmington shops. I thought they were one in the same.
 
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bear is not near the NEC, as for HHP-8's Amtrak does not own them , but has to keep them in good condition till lease is fully over.

What Bombardier will do with them ??? big question with very little answers. probably scrap them.
 
I apologize for bringing up an old thread, but I had a question and I thought it would make more sense to post it here instead of creating a new topic.

I'm on NER 163 right now, and we just left WIL. Passing the Wilmington, DE shops I saw a few HHP-8s in the yard. What does Amtrak plan to do with them?

EDIT: Originally I said I saw them in the Bear, DE shops but it looks like it was the Wilmington shops. I thought they were one in the same.
Bear Shops, adjacent to Amtrak's Northeast Corridor, is indeed where the HHP-8's are stored, awaiting lease expiration. They are required to be maintained in serviceable condition until that time. Upon return to the lessor, both these locomotives and the Acela trainsets are almost certain to be scrapped.
 
Yes, I saw them at the Wilmington shop.

Wow, is that normal for retired locomotives or was that just with Amtrak's contract with Bombardier for the HHP-8s?
 
I apologize for bringing up an old thread, but I had a question and I thought it would make more sense to post it here instead of creating a new topic.

I'm on NER 163 right now, and we just left WIL. Passing the Wilmington, DE shops I saw a few HHP-8s in the yard. What does Amtrak plan to do with them?

EDIT: Originally I said I saw them in the Bear, DE shops but it looks like it was the Wilmington shops. I thought they were one in the same.
Bear Shops, adjacent to Amtrak's Northeast Corridor, is indeed where the HHP-8's are stored, awaiting lease expiration. They are required to be maintained in serviceable condition until that time. Upon return to the lessor, both these locomotives and the Acela trainsets are almost certain to be scrapped.


Every single Amtrak HHP-8 is in Wilmington Shops. They haven't been in Bear for quite some time. The AEM-7s which were in WIL been shipped to Bear for storage and/or scrapping as they no longer require maintenance.
 
I apologize for bringing up an old thread, but I had a question and I thought it would make more sense to post it here instead of creating a new topic.

I'm on NER 163 right now, and we just left WIL. Passing the Wilmington, DE shops I saw a few HHP-8s in the yard. What does Amtrak plan to do with them?

EDIT: Originally I said I saw them in the Bear, DE shops but it looks like it was the Wilmington shops. I thought they were one in the same.
Bear Shops, adjacent to Amtrak's Northeast Corridor, is indeed where the HHP-8's are stored, awaiting lease expiration. They are required to be maintained in serviceable condition until that time. Upon return to the lessor, both these locomotives and the Acela trainsets are almost certain to be scrapped.


Every single Amtrak HHP-8 is in Wilmington Shops. They haven't been in Bear for quite some time. The AEM-7s which were in WIL been shipped to Bear for storage and/or scrapping as they no longer require maintenance.
Thanks for the update. I think I remember reading about the move, and then promptly forgot it.
 
Yes, I saw them at the Wilmington shop.

Wow, is that normal for retired locomotives or was that just with Amtrak's contract with Bombardier for the HHP-8s?
Typically, leases have clauses regarding the condition in which the equipment is to be returned. In this case (I'm assuming, going by what others have posted since I don't know the specifics myself), as with many cases for equipment of this sort (be it railroad equipment, airplanes, other machines, etc.), they must be returned in serviceable condition.

It doesn't matter of the locomotives are junk, nor whether or not they are likely to ever pull another railcar again. If the contract says they must be returned in a specific condition, then that's how they should be returned. Since the lease apparently hasn't expired yet, then it's on Amtrak to store them somewhere in decent shape until their date of return to the owner. Breaking leases of this sort can be very expensive, so it's often cheaper/easier just to store them somewhere until the lease is over.
 
To store them in serviceable condition means you still need to perform maintenance. Placing the HHP-8s at WIL allows them to be stored and serviced in a timely fashion.

NJT had to do the same thing with their ALP-44s. They just hung out at Port Morris, waiting for their leases to expire.
 
There was a fad in the nineties for sale and leaseback deals that free up cash for the now. They are stupid, but when you are as cash strapped as Amtrak became under unGenerous George, you do what you have to. In this instance, the equipment is not actually wanted, so it is probably more economical to maintain and turn over, rather than to buy it out for the privilege of scrapping- no matter how satisfying the fax smashing appeared in Office Space.
 
bear is not near the NEC, as for HHP-8's Amtrak does not own them , but has to keep them in good condition till lease is fully over.

Since the lease apparently hasn't expired yet, then it's on Amtrak to store them somewhere in decent shape until their date of return to the owner. Breaking leases of this sort can be very expensive, so it's often cheaper/easier just to store them somewhere until the lease is over.

To store them in serviceable condition means you still need to perform maintenance. Placing the HHP-8s at WIL allows them to be stored and serviced in a timely fashion.

It is alleged the HHP-8s are not being stored in serviceable condition. It looks like breaking this lease is as expensive as Trogdor surmised!

HHP-8 “Cannibalization” Generates Lawsuit

“Philip Morris Capital Corp. (PMCC) alleged in New York federal court [Nov. 7] that Amtrak owes $92.9 million for breaching a $250 million contract for a fleet of [equipment] used on the Northeast Corridor from Washington to Boston, claiming the company took them out of commission and stripped them for parts.

“PMCC and HNB Investment Corp. alleged that … Amtrak leased eight [HHP-8 electric] locomotives and [six Acela Express high-speed trainsets]. Amtrak ultimately claimed the [HHP-8 locomotives were] unreliable, but inspectors found [they] had been ‘cannibalized’ for parts. The complaint alleges that Amtrak has denied any default and has urged guarantor Export Development Canada (EDC) to reject claims made by PMCC and HNB.


I can't image what they would do with the parts. They are pretty useless to any other piece of equipment. I can imagine stripping a few to keep the others running when they were in service.
 
It is alleged the HHP-8s are not being stored in serviceable condition. It looks like breaking this lease is as expensive as Trogdor surmised!

HHP-8 “Cannibalization” Generates Lawsuit

I can't image what they would do with the parts. They are pretty useless to any other piece of equipment. I can imagine stripping a few to keep the others running when they were in service.
I'm sort-of wondering where PMCC was seriously thinking about re-leasing them (since it doesn't seem likely that even if they hadn't been stripped, Amtrak would've kept them around). Maybe NS for limited NEC operations, but since nothing else significant is electrified in the Americas (and I doubt those locos would find a useful home elsewhere) that seems like a stretch.
 
I'm sort-of wondering where PMCC was seriously thinking about re-leasing them (since it doesn't seem likely that even if they hadn't been stripped, Amtrak would've kept them around). Maybe NS for limited NEC operations, but since nothing else significant is electrified in the Americas (and I doubt those locos would find a useful home elsewhere) that seems like a stretch.
Ah yes, the "seems like a stretch" clause. I'd imagine PMCC would love to see Anderson deploy a defense like that.
 
Ah yes, the "seems like a stretch" clause. I'd imagine PMCC would love to see Anderson deploy a defense like that.
lol

The defense is more to damages. Basically, even if PMCC was able to prove that the equipment was degraded in value, trying to put Amtrak on the hook for the (alleged) breach would require demonstrating how they were harmed. I see it as a cousin of why an older car will often get "totaled out" at an absurdly low price, since the theoretical value of the underlying equipment (in that case, a car) is considered very low (especially net of scrap metal). And given how fast these proceedings (don't) proceed, it is very likely that before any putative day in court events would play out to the point that you'd have a pretty good idea as to how much value was "destroyed" in the process.
 
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