Why do you travel by train?

That's a valid point - as a DoD civilian, I get PreCheck automatically for free when I travel, which is in part why security checkpoints are a non-issue for me (the other half being that MOB, PNS, and ALB aren't really busy airports, and my outbounds at BWI are usually pre-dawn).

If I didn't get it automatically, I wouldn't hesitate to pay for it or GE - as you said, it is nowhere near Don's claimed "very expensive".

I've been flying this winter a lot more frequently than in the past and I've gotten TSA precheck automatically on a lot of my flights. It really makes the security process a lot easier, even in busy airports it takes almost no time at all. I didn't even realize that was a thing they did until now.

keelhauled said:

I've been flying this winter a lot more frequently than in the past and I've gotten TSA precheck automatically on a lot of my flights. It really makes the security process a lot easier, even in busy airports it takes almost no time at all. I didn't even realize that was a thing they did until now.

Click to expand...

I was pleasantly surprised last Oct when my two tickets had precheck on them. I had not even noticed it until I got to the 1st airport and was asking an employee which line I needed to get in.

Ryan said:

Don Newcomb said:

I agree that air travel today is a degrading, inhumane experience. I recall a time when flying was very civilized, when even children flying were expected to be dressed as though going to church (boys in coat and tie, girls in skirts and probably white gloves). Today, you are luck if your fellow travelers on the plane have clothing on at all. The whole process of preflight screening makes one (myself) feel like cattle in line for an appointment with the arbitrator. There are ways around the experience but they are very expensive. (e.g. first class, TWIC card, etc.) And the days of having an empty seat between you and your traveling companion are a distant memory. Travel by Amtrak doesn't even come close to some of the limited express trains of the '50s but it's certainly much more civilized than flying.

Click to expand...

That makes you just as misinformed as Dennis, .......
It amazes me how the "never flies" crowd is so "well informed" on how things are in airports these days. Maybe show up at an airport sometime and see for yourself, rather than continuing to trot out these tired and provably false complaints about how miserable us sheep are on the airplanes...

Click to expand...

Until I retired, I referred to the flight between the US and Japan as "the commute". I've spent more than enough time on airlines and I've seen all sorts nonsense on the part of passengers. Unless you can afford to fly business or first class, airline travel is about as much fun as riding the "Big Dog". I suppose the issue is that I'm old enough to recall when air travel was very civilized. Some trains were too.

Ryan said:

Don Newcomb said:

I've been known to abandon a full cart of groceries if the check-out line was too long.

Click to expand...

It takes a real special kind of person to pull that sort of a stunt.

Click to expand...

It sends a very clear message to management: "Open more registers." I never had to do it a second time. I've also reported sanitary violations at grocery stores directly to the corporate headquarters. That also never happened a second time. I guess that makes me a "special" person too.

Don Newcomb said:

There are ways around the experience but they are very expensive. (e.g. first class, TWIC card, etc.)

Click to expand...

Ryan said:

That's a valid point - as a DoD civilian, I get PreCheck automatically for free when I travel, ....... it is nowhere near Don's claimed "very expensive".

Click to expand...

You'll notice that I didn't say that PreCheck itself was expensive. A TWIC was included with a list of items, including first class, that would make air travel more bearable but were expensive. VIPs don't go through the same experience as everyone else. They pay extra to use the lounge, fly up front, board last, get off first and bypass the lines.

Don Newcomb said:

Don Newcomb said:

There are ways around the experience but they are very expensive. (e.g. first class, TWIC card, etc.)

Click to expand...

Ryan said:

That's a valid point - as a DoD civilian, I get PreCheck automatically for free when I travel, ....... it is nowhere near Don's claimed "very expensive".

Click to expand...

You'll notice that I didn't say that PreCheck itself was expensive. A TWIC was included with a list of items, including first class, that would make air travel more bearable but were expensive. VIPs don't go through the same experience as everyone else. They pay extra to use the lounge, fly up front, board last, get off first and bypass the lines.

Click to expand...

First Class passengers do not automatically get Pre-Check. They can access elite security lines (where available), but that only gets them to the ID check point. They may bypass a longer line, but they do not necessarily bypass any line. From that point on, they get full security. Signing up for Pre-Check or other known traveler programs is the only (almost) sure way to ensure getting Pre-Check. Random Pre-Check selection for non members of KT programs is becoming less frequent. Pre-Check has lines as well, but generally not very long and they move quickly. So, it is possible that a "VIP" without Pre-Check will have a longer security process than a low-fare coach passenger with Pre-Check. Simply being a "VIP" does not by itself do much as far as the security process is concerned.

As for boarding, F passengers board first, not last. They can exit the plane first simply because they are seated up front. Elite members of the airline programs also get earlier boarding, but the ease of getting off the plane is a function of where you are seated, not who you are.

Rolling back to the subject, I find that Amtrak long distance travel is not very useful to me as transportation. When I take an LD train, it is because taking the train is reason I am traveling. If all I want to do is get from A to B, and when A to B is more than a few hundred miles, then air is pretty much it for me. We have family in eastern Montana. We have visited them ten times in the last two years (from the Philly area). Had we taken Amtrak, those ten trips would have necessitated forty nights on trains.

I think personality is also a factor. Enjoyment of Amtrak long distance travel is enhanced if a person has somewhat of a laid-back personality. People who can put away their watch, turn off the phone (and other devices), and can simply sit back and enjoy the ride are made for Amtrak long distance travel (see several prior posts). That is not me. I want to be connected, and I want to get there. I once asked my wife if she thought I had a "Type A" personality. She just laughed. Type A people and Amtrak LD's are not a good mix.

Don Newcomb said:

Ryan said:

dlagrua said:

Its a filthy, disgusting, dehumanizing, degrading experience that people accept like sheep. What does that tell you?

Click to expand...

It tells me that you're a poorly educated, narrow minded person that can't think outside of your own experience and can't imagine a world where it is acceptable for people to hold differing viewpoints and have different priorities.

Perhaps you should talk less and listen more to the people around you and try and understand their viewpoint rather than insult them constantly.

Click to expand...

I agree that air travel today is a degrading, inhumane experience...

Click to expand...

I also agree. Check your dignity at the curb and get those hands in the air for your mandated radiation dose!

Ainamkartma

ainamkartma said:

I also agree. Check your dignity at the curb and get those hands in the air for your mandated radiation dose!

Click to expand...

Here's another example. https://www.wired.com/2012/02/female-body-scans/

One of my high school buds is an electrical engineer who worked on millimeter wave body scanners. He told me that the resolution is just fantastic although the TSA says that with their scanners the images are blurred.

My brother-in-law will no longer fly. He's been taken apart and put back together so many times, we call him, "Titanium man." What he and my sister have been put through by TSA would give just about anyone a case of PTSD.

It's not that I won't fly, like Pierre Salinger wouldn't. I just prefer not to. It's not fun any more. My preferred mode of travel is to get off the Interstate and explore the back roads.

seat38a said:

CSXfoamer1997 said:

SarahZ said:

CSXfoamer1997 said:

I'm a lifelong train enthusiast. I'll take train travel over cars and planes! The train seats are very comfortable, and I find trains to be safer than cars and planes!

Click to expand...

Planes are safer than trains, but the difference is slight.

Both are much safer than cars.

Click to expand...

How are planes safer than trains? I hardly ever see jet crashes with any survivors.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

MH370, MH17

neutralist said:

seat38a said:

CSXfoamer1997 said:

SarahZ said:

CSXfoamer1997 said:

I'm a lifelong train enthusiast. I'll take train travel over cars and planes! The train seats are very comfortable, and I find trains to be safer than cars and planes!

Click to expand...

Planes are safer than trains, but the difference is slight.

Both are much safer than cars.

Click to expand...

How are planes safer than trains? I hardly ever see jet crashes with any survivors.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

MH370, MH17

Click to expand...

Nobody knows exactly what happened to MH370, but the most likely answer thus far is commanded flight until starvation. Otherwise it's hard to find a cause that is severe enough to knock out all forms of communication and control but not severe enough to prevent the plane from exhausting its fuel supply. MH17 is already known to be caused by intervention from external conflict. Which says next to nothing about fundamental safety comparisons between trains and aircraft.

When we are talking MH flights and their fate, for each MH17 one can cite more than one horrific sabotage related rail accidents in the world leading to all kinds of mayhem with fatalities sometimes far exceeding the capacity of a 777.

Why I travel by trains....I like trains.

I ride trains to avoid the insane traffic in and out of the cities especially Los Angeles. The SWC isn't the greatest departure time out of Barstow but I'd rather pay for a cab then try to navigate LA. And the return trip isn't too bad.

Nowadays, just for pleasure....as in fantrips, rare mileage and the like...

Otherwise, I drive or fly

CSXfoamer1997 said:

How are planes safer than trains? I hardly ever see jet crashes with any survivors.

Click to expand...

By dint of the way, way, way, more miles commercial airplanes fly per passenger mile when compared to trains.

Amtrak has some 300 trains running a day.

The airlines have 10s of thousands of airplanes flying a day.

Most commercial airliner crashes have lots of survivors.

According to the National Transportation Safety Board, 95.7 percent of the passengers involved in aviation accidents make it out alive.

The NTSB says the survival rate in the most serious crashes is 76.6 percent. In other words, if your plane crashes you aren’t necessarily doomed, just like the passengers on US Air 1549 that landed on the Hudson River.

According to this graphic, in 2015 there were 716 rail fatalities, with only 415 aviation fatalities.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/data/Pages/Data_Stats.aspx

KmH said:

CSXfoamer1997 said:

How are planes safer than trains? I hardly ever see jet crashes with any survivors.

Click to expand...

By dint of the way, way, way, more miles commercial airplanes fly per passenger mile when compared to trains.Amtrak has some 300 trains running a day.

The airlines have 10s of thousands of airplanes flying a day.

Most commercial airliner crashes have lots of survivors.

According to the National Transportation Safety Board, 95.7 percent of the passengers involved in aviation accidents make it out alive.

The NTSB says the survival rate in the most serious crashes is 76.6 percent. In other words, if your plane crashes you aren’t necessarily doomed, just like the passengers on US Air 1549 that landed on the Hudson River.

According to this graphic, in 2015 there were 716 rail fatalities, with only 415 aviation fatalities.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/data/Pages/Data_Stats.aspx

Click to expand...

Do those rail fatalities include trespasser strikes and vehicle collisions?

CCC1007 said:

KmH said:

CSXfoamer1997 said:

How are planes safer than trains? I hardly ever see jet crashes with any survivors.

Click to expand...

By dint of the way, way, way, more miles commercial airplanes fly per passenger mile when compared to trains.Amtrak has some 300 trains running a day.

The airlines have 10s of thousands of airplanes flying a day.

Most commercial airliner crashes have lots of survivors.

According to the National Transportation Safety Board, 95.7 percent of the passengers involved in aviation accidents make it out alive.

The NTSB says the survival rate in the most serious crashes is 76.6 percent. In other words, if your plane crashes you aren’t necessarily doomed, just like the passengers on US Air 1549 that landed on the Hudson River.

According to this graphic, in 2015 there were 716 rail fatalities, with only 415 aviation fatalities.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/data/Pages/Data_Stats.aspx

Click to expand...

Do those rail fatalities include trespasser strikes and vehicle collisions?

Click to expand...

Yep. 461 were categorized as trespassers. It seems that grade crossing fatalities are included in the vehicle the person was in - so any rail fatalities due to grade crossings are included in that rail figure but any auto fatalities due to grade crossings are not included.

Eric S said:

CCC1007 said:

KmH said:

CSXfoamer1997 said:

How are planes safer than trains? I hardly ever see jet crashes with any survivors.

Click to expand...

By dint of the way, way, way, more miles commercial airplanes fly per passenger mile when compared to trains.Amtrak has some 300 trains running a day.

The airlines have 10s of thousands of airplanes flying a day.

Most commercial airliner crashes have lots of survivors.

According to the National Transportation Safety Board, 95.7 percent of the passengers involved in aviation accidents make it out alive.

The NTSB says the survival rate in the most serious crashes is 76.6 percent. In other words, if your plane crashes you aren’t necessarily doomed, just like the passengers on US Air 1549 that landed on the Hudson River.

According to this graphic, in 2015 there were 716 rail fatalities, with only 415 aviation fatalities.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/data/Pages/Data_Stats.aspx

Click to expand...

Do those rail fatalities include trespasser strikes and vehicle collisions?

Click to expand...

Yep. 461 were categorized as trespassers. It seems that grade crossing fatalities are included in the vehicle the person was in - so any rail fatalities due to grade crossings are included in that rail figure but any auto fatalities due to grade crossings are not included.

Click to expand...

Well, by crash fatalities in this case, I meant as in passenger fatalities. How many passenger fatalities were recorded in 2015?

CSXfoamer1997 said:

Well, by crash fatalities in this case, I meant as in passenger fatalities. How many passenger fatalities were recorded in 2015?

Click to expand...

Here you go:

http://safetydata.fra.dot.gov/OfficeofSafety/publicsite/on_the_fly_download.aspx

Download whatever data you want and count for yourself. And let us know the results please, when you are done.

If I'm reading it correctly, Amtrak had two fatalities in 2016, both passengers that managed to remove themselves from the train while in motion.

In 2015, there are the 8 from Amtrak 188, 5 from the Metro North grade crossing incident, and then two others - an 80 year old NJT passenger managed to miss the grab iron while detraining and managed to fall from the train resulting in a head injury and death. The last was on one of the METRA lines operated by BNSF and was a 25 year old with the info "Needle puncture/prick/stick". No further details.

Edit: Got curious, and the incident was worth a paragraph - drug OD, found the kid in the bathroom of the train: http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/10/16/death-aboard-metra-train-was-narcotics-related-aurora-police-say/

I know from experience taking my children and grand children on over night train trips, they either loved it or hated it. Fortunately for me, two-thirds really enjoy rail travel. My son, the company CTO, has to be connected 24 hours a day 7 days a week. He doesn't care about a window seat on a plane, he says he doesn't have time to waste looking outside. Now both my daughters, and several of my grand kids enjoy an over night trip. I have two granddaughters who love rail travel so much, they beg for me to take them on multiple night rail trips. Now, I have traveled at a warrior level for several decades. I received the "Lifetime" Diamond card from Hilton the first year they started the program, Delta now recognizes me as a 3M miler.

I will travel by rail whenever it is possible. My son, the CTO, was amazed at how efficient I was traveling long distance by rail, but he also points out that in this decade of super real time data updates, things would be different. Do I fly? Yes, no option when we went to Kauai. Yes, last year to Alaska in an emergency where we flew within hours of notification. But given the choice, I will always go by rail. Soon, I will be heading west to LAX. In July, Its Chicago and San Francisco. All Amtrak trips, the second I am taking my oldest granddaughter.

Bottom Line: Rail isn't for everyone, just like flying isn't for everyone, nor is driving (my father loved driving everywhere, no matter how far). I do feel all travel is more cattle car than it was decades back. As an example look up the promo videos of the CZ on YouTube. The benefits of rail travel is seeing the USA, meeting people from all over, relax as you travel, and arrived more mentally fit than flying or driving (that is me, not everyone). Some people say that rail isn't an option for business travel. I say it depends on where you live and the area you need to travel, also how you use your time on the train. There are many people who use Amtrak over night trains as well as day trains for business.

Purely for the joy of train travel! In April I will take the LSL from NYC to Chicago and the EB to Seattle, then fly home the next day. Not to go to Seattle, but to ride the EB and LSL. And. to make ND the 48th state I have visited, completing the quest that began many years ago when there were only 48 states. I've also gone to SLC by flying to Denver then taking the train to SLC. Even more extreme, returned home from a conference in Las Vegas by renting a car, driving to LA, and taking the CS to Seattle, then flying home from SEA. Last summer, after a conference in Grenoble, I took the train to Geneva and on to Zermatt. Then the Glacier Express to Davos and the Bernina to Tirano.I just love trains.