Hoosier State Going from IPH Back to Amtrak

shop deals on amazon
Shop deals on ebay
Advertise with us
Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
So we were stuck in a situation where we could have a train with bad OTP but good OBS or good OTP but bad OBS. Oh well.... Sigh....

The bottom line is that InDOT was trying to get something for cheap and they got exactly what they paid for.

The article below clearly suggests that the deal was grossly underfunded if the train always ran on time from the getgo. So apparently the expectation was that it would always run with bad OTP and CSX would take the hit for it.

http://wbaa.org/post/financial-missteps-lead-iowa-pacific-give-hoosier-state-line#stream/0
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I believe that the Iowa Pacific Hoosier state line had problems from the start. Where not they required to use an Amtrak engineer and conductor? They received less of a subsidy than Amtrak did, had higher maintenance costs, charged the same fares and provided a higher level of service. The numbers just did not add up. Now if CSX got into the game it might have been a different story. IMO, Amtrak will be back but just maybe with a combined daily Cardinal/Hoosier State that can couple on a few extra Hoosier state cars at Indianapolis.
 
jis said:
The bottom line is that InDOT was trying to get something for cheap and they got exactly what they paid for.

http://wbaa.org/post/financial-missteps-lead-iowa-pacific-give-hoosier-state-line#stream/0
Click to expand...
Very interesting story. Indiana most definitely got a winner of a contract. Amtrak 2nd place. IPH got the shaft.

Ok lawyers are a dime a dozen, nobody to read the contact and check the math at IPH. Sound like someone didn't do there job. Or just wanted the business so badly, they would of sign anything. Maybe that was the plan, start with Indiana and get more work at different states, and better prices.
 
Or maybe the 300lb gorilla made a sweetheart deal with bonus for on-time deliver with the freight railroads.

I wonder if the two different trains running on this line have the same bonus structure. Would not be the first time Amtrak when ballistic and try to destroy another operation.
 
Here is a copy of the Contract between IPH and INDOT. Appendix G which is the details of the contract with Amtrak is missing from this package as it was provided as an attachment to it to both INDOT and IPH.

http://www.in.gov/indot/files/Amtrak_IPHAgreement_2015.pdf

But what is clear from this is that INDOT and Amtrak both indemnified themselves to the hilt and IPH needed a more competent Contract negotiator than they had. Even I would have walked away from this setup, and I am no Contract negotiator of any repute whatsoever. It is not clear to me how they ever expected to even come out even unless they managed a completely miraculous growth in ridership.
 
Smoking Gun?

Amtrak was able to redo there cost of contract in the summer of 2016. No input from IPH. IPH gets only payed with anything that left on the table.

Bad contract.

The question is do both train on this route pay the same to freight railroads, and are the Amtrak charges prorated correctly.

I.E. The road master, T+E crew, and clerks assigned to this route, are those pay checks only from the state funds, or are they prorated from the Long Distance Fleet and a part from the State of Indiana.

How much of the Amtrak overheads was past on to the state contract.

Amtrak knew the total funds available, could they adjusted to fit that amount. Or did they?

.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Maybe it's buried in this thread or one of the linked stories, but what was the average ridership in business class on this route?

I rode the train once, and business class had maybe 5 or 6 people up there. I think there were 2 or 3 employees assigned to the car because of the food service. I could have just been riding on a slow day, or maybe that was typical. If so, there was absolutely no way that service was paying for itself.

People can complain all they want about having an Amfleet club-dinette with a bottle of OJ vs. a dome car with cooked meals and free booze, but the $30 or so fare upgrade for BC vs. regular coach doesn't come anywhere close to paying the costs of staff, extra car, and the food & beverage you get. It probably barely pays for (if at all) the cost of the extra club-dinette car (even unstaffed) if you're only getting 5 or 6 people in it.
 
Hoosier State ridership over the last several years:

2016: 29,488
2015: 29,348
2014: 33,386
2013: 35,995
2012: 36,037
2011: 36,508
2010: 32,937
2009: 30,806

Click to expand...
Seems to pretty much track gas price more than anything else. There is a possibility that '15 and '16 would have been worse without the new INDOT deal, but that is hard to quantify based on any measured metrics.
 
Having months of uncertainty as to whether the train would be discontinued certainly didn't help 2015-2016 ridership either. I'd have to go dig through recent monthly reports to be sure, but as I recall, ridership had been on the upswing in recent months.
 
I suspect that "problem" shall soon be fixed :( unfortunately,

Of course the big problem is that a small variation in a small number is not what will lead to success of this operation. INDOT needs to commit to this more solidly than having a rag tag circus of local communities and itself put together funds that under capitalize the operation. Without that it is doomed.

INDOT needs to follow the example of California if they really want this to succeed. My suspicion is that that they only marginally care, and wil do just enough to keep the few supporters of it off their backs.
 
rtabern said:
A Voice said:
rtabern said:
Unless Amtrak comes to it senses and lowers the price for business class on the Hoosier... I hope passenger realize they are being ripped off and stop upgrading on this train.

I noticed that business class fares are the same before and after March 1st.

So if you ride BC on February 26... you get a ride in a beautiful dome car with sweeping views, a free full breakfast cooked fresh aboard the train, unlimited booze, etc... and then a week later FOR THE SAME PRICE... you get a seat in an Amfleet with no food or alcohol and maybe a bottle of water or a 280-carlorie cranberry juice that is mostly sugar water. Nice. (The conductors who work this train have told me that the Amtrak Hoosier will be one engine and two cars -- one regular coach and one business class car with the food area un-staffed like it its on BC on the Cardinal right now with just some self-serve water and juice thrown behind the counter)

I understand Amtrak can't provide a dome car or the same experience as Iowa Pacific did -- but why are prices for BC not going down with the cut in service? Not to get too off topic, but again, this is why we stopped riding other Amtrak LD trains. Cuts in the quality of service but no real drop in price except the Silver Star(vation).
Click to expand...
One story I've read (though I cannot confirm its veracity) is that the Indiana Department of Transportation (INDOT) did, in fact, request the Amtrak full dome for at least interim service on the Hoosier State. Not to cast doubt on your conductor sources, but I would be very surprised if Amfleet equipment were used on the Amtrak-operated train. Probably even Amtrak doesn't yet know what the amenities will be (published articles have stated as much); As jis noted, it will be up to what INDOT wants and is willing to pay for.
Click to expand...

Can you provide a link to the story that you read about Ocean View being put on the Hoosier? I'd love to read it, please.

You'd be "very surprised" if Amfleet equipment was used on the Hoosier State after March 1st? Why? I would think an Amfleet or Horizon coach is much more likely than the train running with Ocean View. But. we'll see in about 28 days.
Click to expand...
I would be surprised if the Hoosier State, under Amtrak, does not use Horizon fleet cars from the pool already in Chicago. Why bring in more Amfleet cars for the train, which are in short supply and needed in the northeast, when you have an existing pool of Horizon equipment?
 
And it probes my theory that passengers just don't get excited about dome cars. Most pax just want to get from point A to point B safely and on time. The only thing dome cars attract is railfans and foamers. And neither are a really dependable market. They generally tend to rather chase, film, and photograph the train then buy tickets.

And when they do buy tickets they generally go coach from observations from working seasons upon seasons of excursions. So domes aren't really a true factor. And if they had to have a dome you don't throw a full dome on a train where you can't fill a vista dome.
 
jis said:
But what is clear from this is that INDOT and Amtrak both indemnified themselves to the hilt and IPH needed a more competent Contract negotiator than they had. Even I would have walked away from this setup, and I am no Contract negotiator of any repute whatsoever. It is not clear to me how they ever expected to even come out even unless they managed a completely miraculous growth in ridership.
Click to expand...
Remember their various plans for massively increasing service at little to no cost to Indiana? It's entirely possible and likely that they were delusional enough to think that they'd get such massive increases in ridership to make money on it.
 
With all the early arrivals in CHI why hasn't the schedule been tightened ? example 25 minutes day before yesterday. With some additional work by the various RRs maybe even more schedule tightening ?.
 
Seaboard92 said:
And it probes my theory that passengers just don't get excited about dome cars. Most pax just want to get from point A to point B safely and on time. The only thing dome cars attract is railfans and foamers. And neither are a really dependable market. They generally tend to rather chase, film, and photograph the train then buy tickets.

And when they do buy tickets they generally go coach from observations from working seasons upon seasons of excursions. So domes aren't really a true factor. And if they had to have a dome you don't throw a full dome on a train where you can't fill a vista dome.
Click to expand...
You make so many broad points in this post I'm not sure where to begin.

"Most Pax just want to get from point A to point B safely and on time" - That's why most passengers book coach. This is true for airlines as well as trains. The point of Business Class / First Class is for passengers who want to pay more money for a better experience.

"Passengers just don't get excited about dome cars" - I agree to an extent. Hoosier State BC passengers don't need a dome car. However... passengers who pay for BC / Sleeper / 1st Class do get excited for something nice or fancy. That can be a Pacific Parlour Car, 2-1 Seating, a Dome Car, Rear Observation Car, or just a really nice old time lounge. What passengers do enjoy, is the nice service, the little 1st class touches, and the upscale atmosphere.
 
We are drifting off of IPH and Hoosier State to general philosophy again. But I guess to some extent that is inevitable.

Just the statement that "no one needs BC/Dome" what have you is overly general, so is the claim that those in Sleeper desire luxurious accommodation. Majority of Sleeper passengers in the world appear to mostly desire sleeping accommodation for the lowest possible price.
 
west point said:
With all the early arrivals in CHI why hasn't the schedule been tightened ? example 25 minutes day before yesterday. With some additional work by the various RRs maybe even more schedule tightening ?.
Click to expand...
They probably want it to match the schedule of the Cardinal so it's easier for passengers to remember. And without adjusting the rest of the schedule it may not be possible for the Cardinal to maintain the tightened schedule.

Lonestar648 said:
So when Amtrak takes over, what will the consist be? One engine and two horizon coaches? Will they offer any type of snack or drink service since that loses money?
Click to expand...
It's been covered in many posts over the last few pages. What equipment will be used is unknown at this time. Food service will be provided if Indiana pays for it.
 
There won't be a need for the Hoosier State train and all this trouble with INDOT at all once the daily Cardinal debuts.......
 
jis said:
INDOT needs to follow the example of California if they really want this to succeed. My suspicion is that that they only marginally care, and wil do just enough to keep the few supporters of it off their backs.
Click to expand...
Isn't that true of all of Amtrak outside the NEC and maybe some other local examples such as California, Illinois etc.

The too insignificant to keep alive but too significant to kill off scenario.
 
Yes. And it is also true that most are undercapitalized. Furthermore, unless the funding situation is changed they have no hope of improving significantly.

But we are talking specifically about the Hoosier State in this thread. There are other threads to talk about general Amtrak issues. Hoosier State is unique because INDOT actually seems to believe that they can reduce spending on an already undercapitalized operation to improve it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I thought at one point INDOT had hoped to raise money to improve the track between Indianapolis and Chicago, much like IDOT has between STL and CHI. Money needs to be spent on the infrastructure, the equipment used, and actual service provided. How many people would consider leaving their cars if the speed improved thus improving the schedule. I cant see a continuation of Amtrak's slow, no frill, service with stagnant or dropping ridership.
 
As I've said before, the route itself has much bigger potential. I-65 was busy when I drove it frequently and I'm sure it's gotten busier. Indy has grown quite a bit as well and, at least according to some there, they love visiting Chicago (back in the 90's traveling Broadway shows in Chicago were advertised on Indy tv for example). A good sized college town about halfway. Not to mention being able to pick up NW Indiana residents needing to go to Indy for the occasional state business.

It won't reach it's potential until a few things happen: better times, faster running (needs to be faster than Megabus), more frequency, etc. Oh, well...
 

Latest posts

Back
Top