Doomsday Scenario: What If Congress Stops Funding Amtrak?

Rover said:

zephyr17 said:

Hodge-podge of private and public ownership? Aside from Amtrak owned, there are some commuter agencies that own some of the lines around a FEW major cities, it is all private. While there is a mix, "hodge-podge" implies a more even mix to me than there actually is, the overwhelming majority of railroad mileage in the US is owned by the RR companies, not public agencies.

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So, I suggest Federalizing the railroad mileage. Is that how it's done in other major countries??

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In Europe thethey have devised the perfect system

1. Force the UK to privatise its national rail system under a franchise system - where each franchise is awarded to those that bids the lower subsidy needed to run services for ex year

2. Then allow the French, Dutch, German and Italian state own rail companies to win all the franchises between them

3. These franchises then cut essential services such as removing the guard (conductor) from the train and making the driver solely responsible for safety but it works on the London Underground so why not on surface rail hey!

4. Now these franchises cost the UK tax payer millions in subsidies which get sent to said national train companies as profit so they don't need as much money from their own tax payers

It's a fantastic system that works for everyone bar the British tax payer and British rail passengers.

Indeed perhaps Amtrak should just join the gravy train and run one or more of our franchises so you can divert the money into your own trains??

(Yes I've over simplified things but the above is the general gist of how the UK tax payer is funding the European rail network £

2.

zephyr17 said:

Hodge-podge of private and public ownership? Aside from Amtrak owned, there are some commuter agencies that own some of the lines around a FEW major cities, it is all private. While there is a mix, "hodge-podge" implies a more even mix to me than there actually is, the overwhelming majority of railroad mileage in the US is owned by the RR companies, not public agencies.

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I actually started out detailing a list of publicly-owned railroads in the US but since it wasn't important to the question of who builds and maintains highways, I cut it short. There are fewer miles of publicly-owner railroads that private, a train doesn't get over the river at New Orleans without using one.

When I look in my old Funk & Wagnalls, it defines hodge-podge as "a jumbled mixture or collection", nothing about the relative percentages. It think the word fits.

for the old timers

FORGOTONIA UNITE

I am showing my age again

On a related topic, what Fiscal Year will see the final $30 million payment on the Penn Station mortgage? Isn't that happy day coming soon? Worth knowing because Amtrak may soon be hocking its valuables in event of "doomsday". Any similar debts outstanding?

(Yeah, I could look it up, but somebody here *knows it*. LOL.)

ScouseAndy said:

4. Now these franchises cost the UK tax payer millions in subsidies which get sent to said national train companies as profit so they don't need as much money from their own tax payers

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From what I've heard DB has actually lost money on its Uk operations these last few years.

If you look at DBS for example, since taking over from EWS there has been little investment in new equipment or atempts to seriously expand service. On the other hand more nimble smaller freigh operators have been eating into their market and growing it overall.

In fact DB bought out Arriva (a British company) because Arriva was posing a threat in their home market.

Could be I'm misinformed though.

Don Newcomb said:

BCL said:

Still, there was a time when they embraced passenger rail rather than see it as a liability. They built grand stations designed by world-class architects. Heck - Union Pacific even built destination lodges at several national parks via their Utah Parks Company division in order to attract passenger rail business.

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That was when rail beat the alternatives (stagecoach, sailing ship and steamboat) in terms of speed, comfort and/or safety.

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Rail still beat driving in motorcars as late as the 1930s and 1940s when my father was growing up. Paving Route 66 was a huge deal for motorists.
Without the massive government funding of roads, rail would still be beating roads.

Don Newcomb said:

Philly Amtrak Fan said:

.....The buses have to ride on roads which were built by and maintained by the federal government. ....

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Actually, only a very few roads, such as those in National Parks and military bases are built and maintained by the federal government. Roads are generally built and maintained by state and local governments with some federal funding, primarily derived from taxes on fuels.

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Common belief, but incorrect.
The federal government, for years, has paid 80% of the funding for the "national highway" system which includes the Interstates and the US Highway System plus others. It's been reduced to close to 50% in some years. Much of it is from general taxation (income tax) not from fuel taxes.

The states do pay for vastly more than the federal government does... and again mostly use general taxes (income and sales tax), not fuel taxes.

Spot on Neroden!

To paraphrase the WWI Song: how you gonna keep 'em down on the Farm once they've seen New York!

Please get back to something resembling this topic, or take it to Random Discussions.

The entire diversion is because tp49 was making an excuse for the US not getting high-speed rail done.

The excuse is not valid. The US got the Interstate Highway System done by essentially the same means China is using to get HSR done.

neroden said:

The entire diversion is because tp49 was making an excuse for the US not getting high-speed rail done.

The excuse is not valid. The US got the Interstate Highway System done by essentially the same means China is using to get HSR done.

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I agree with that assessment. When the political machinary is on your side, it is equally easy to ram through eminent domain driven what amounts to forfeiture of property in US exactly as much as elsewhere. And when the political machinary is not on your side, forget about it.

cirdan said:

ScouseAndy said:

4. Now these franchises cost the UK tax payer millions in subsidies which get sent to said national train companies as profit so they don't need as much money from their own tax payers

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From what I've heard DB has actually lost money on its Uk operations these last few years.

If you look at DBS for example, since taking over from EWS there has been little investment in new equipment or atempts to seriously expand service. On the other hand more nimble smaller freigh operators have been eating into their market and growing it overall.

In fact DB bought out Arriva (a British company) because Arriva was posing a threat in their home market.

Could be I'm misinformed though.

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Certainly due to the collapse of the U.K. Steel industry and the closure of many coal power stations DB Cargo (UK) core business has shrunk significantly (but freight isn't subsidised in the same way) they are question marks over payments being made abroad and asset stripping by the parent company. However it's passenger service portfolio is still drawing considerable subsidies from the U.K. Tax payer and recording record profits, with worsening under invested services at inflation busting ticket prices (Arriva trains wales received subsidies of around £150mil and profits of £30mil as single franchise).

However you spin it UK tax payers are paying more in real terms both in subsidies and ticket prices then ever paid under BR

I've split off, as best as I could, the discussion revolving around federal subsidies in general. Feel free to discuss further in Random Discussions.

Let's get this thread back on topic.