It's hard to like Amtrak when they keep messing up with delays

fairviewroad said:

MikefromCrete said:

Well, how about that. There's an actual reason for the delays involving somebody getting hurt. Too bad this person's (possibly serious) problems messed up Texan's day.

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Regardless of the reason for the delay, there's no excuse for Amtrak phone agents to be so dismissive, especially when they cite an inaccurate standard of lateness.

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Yes, for accuracy I suppose they should have followed Devil Advocate's line of thinking about nothing being Amtrak's fault. After all, that is clearly on the website as well::

Amtrak's fares, time schedules, equipment, routing, services and information (hereinafter "Amtrak services") are not guaranteed and are provided "as is" without any warranties of any kind, either express or implied, and Amtrak disclaims all warranties, express or implied. Applicable law may not allow the exclusion of implied warranties, so the above exclusions may not apply to you.

Amtrak reserves the right to change its policies without notice.

Amtrak further specifically disclaims liability for any inconvenience, expense, or damages, incidental, consequential, punitive, lost profits, loss business or otherwise, resulting from errors in its timetable, shortages of equipment, or due to delayed trains, except when such delay causes a passenger to miss an Amtrak train guaranteed connection. When a guaranteed Amtrak train connection is missed, Amtrak will provide passenger with alternate transportation on Amtrak, another carrier, or provide overnight hotel accommodations, at Amtrak's sole discretion, but only when such circumstances resulted from the actions of Amtrak and this shall constitute Amtrak's sole liability and passenger's sole and exclusive remedy. Some states may not allow the exclusion of incidental or consequential damages, so the above limitation or exclusion may not apply to you.

Amtrak also disclaims any liability for the products and/or services of Amtrak's advertisers, business partners, sponsors, suppliers, licensors and agents to the extent permissible under the law and Amtrak shall only be responsible for the rail transportation services that it provides.

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Devil's Advocate said:

caravanman said:

Maybe part of the solution would be to give train staff the authority to show initiative, maybe telephone ahead so the connecting bus can be held?

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This sounds like a good suggestion to me. I'd be curious what Amtrak employees think of it.

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That is actually a deep and detailed subject that is probably worthy of its own thread, but the short answer it the staff can call ahead if there are known connecting passengers to a published connections. However, it must go through the dispatcher because as previously mentioned, unless there is an emergency, communications must be through the railroad if there is one provided and it is operational.

If you call ahead, it is up to the connecting group to decide if they are going to hold the train...and for how long. There are many scenarios that can make or break a hold.

Devil's Advocate said:

KmH said:

Amtrak has little to no control regarding the on-time performance of most of their trains.

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Amtrak has more control over their own performance than "little or none". Every time one of their locomotives dies, or they have to screw around with the electrical connections, or try to fix the food reheating equipment, or bad order a defective passenger car, that's on Amtrak and nobody else. They also have 100% control over how they interact with passengers who are delayed.

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I'd disagree with 100% control over how they interact with the passengers. There are operational situations where updates may not be available since the entire crew has to leave the train to find a body, make a repair, get people out of ditches. You can make an announcement that you'll be back in 15 minutes, but if there is no one left inside the train to make an update, it is not forthcoming....and yes, that has happened, particularly on trains without attendants. If you're lucky, you'll have an attendant and they can at least guard the doors and possibly make announcements.

Devil's Advocate said:

NTL1991 said:

532(7) was a late turn due to 527(7) being delayed 2.5 hours because of an on-board passenger injury and the need to re-crew at MTZ.

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I wonder what sort of on-board "injury" brings an entire train to a halt for hours on end. Seems like even with this horrendous event the OBS could have handled communication better and the call center staff could have been more understanding and less dismissive. Maybe they were overcome with grief at a passenger being injured on their watch.

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For the record, the train with the injured passenger was NOT the train Texan Eagle traveled on. That equipment **turned** for the equipment that ultimately became Texan Eagle's train home. So, we don't know what the OBS crew of that train said to their passengers and if you called the reservation center, they would look at his train (which is not two hours late) identify its location to the best of their ability and pass the information.

However, (and I'm not saying that this is the case since I wasn't there) if there is an injury to passenger or employee and the crew feels they need relief for one reason or the other, they are now FEDERALLY protected under the Critical Stress Plan. Amtrak already had one in place but the F.R.A. instituted a rule that all Class One and Commuter carriers must have one..or have one forced upon them.

As long as the injury or incident is F.R.A reportable (and almost all injuries are) crew members that directly witness, are closely connected to a covered incident or witness in person the immediate effects of a covered incident may request relief without repercussion.

This became a rule since railroad were slow to realize the effects certain incidents have on people. A notable example is when someone decided to put their head on the rail as a train approached. Well, the engineer was relieved as was the train crew that had to walk back and point out body parts and give statements. Unfortunately, this incident happened right in front on manned interlocking tower and the tower operator saw the whole thing. When he requested relief, it was denied since he wasn't "involved in the actual incident," which was ludicrous since he attempted to stop the train. When he asked again, he was threatened with job abandonment. Eventually, he just left his post. This rule is designed to curtail the "don't worry about it/get over it/tough it out and get back to work" mentality.

To wrap this up, if you watch a passengers fall down the steps and break their neck or someone chops off the finger in a door, the F.R.A has instituted a rule that protects you if you're overcome with grief at a passenger being injured on your watch.

Tennessee Traveler said:

........ If you expect things to be different, then maybe Amtrak is not for you. Personally, I love the adventure and plan my trips to provide for the delays meaning no less than 5 hours connections. ......

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Compare this philosophy with, say Japan, where the Shinkansen operates at least to-the-minute, if not the second, and any notion of "adventure" while zipping along at 200 mph is the farthest thing from anyone's mind, except maybe the few foreign tourists on the train.

Shinkansens have the unique privilege of running exclusively on dedicated grade separated, sealed ROW, barring a very few exceptions (e.g. The northwest end of the Akita Shinkansen), thus providing for an extremely controlled environment. Comparing it to almost any other main line high speed service is comparing apples with kumquats, and everyone who does so ought to know and mention this specific caveat, unless they are seriously proposing that the likes of TGV and ICE must operate only on LGVs and Nieuwbauwstracke respectively, and nowhere else. And if they think so they need to get back in touch with reality.

jis said:

.....And if they think so they need to get back in touch with reality.

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Simply pointing out that taking an Amtrak train is viewed as sort of a wilderness "adventure", where you have to be prepared for the unexpected and ready to match wits with the unknown, while in Japan the train is an appliance, baring an earthquake, it's just assumed that it will work and be on time.

Tennessee Traveler said:

I just completed a coast to coast and return on Amtrak's Capitol Limited and California Zephyr. The westbound Capitol Limited crew was top notch and we arrive right on schedule in Chicago maybe a few minutes early. The OBS crew on the westbound and eastbound California Zephyr's were again top notched and most would call me by my first name.

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There is a day and night difference in Amtrak crew behavior in sleepers vs coach/corridor trains. In sleepers they know good service will get them good tips so they put on their happy face. In coach, they hate everyone who happens to be on the train.

If you expect things to be different, then maybe Amtrak is not for you. Personally, I love the adventure and plan my trips to provide for the delays meaning no less than 5 hours connections.

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And this is why the government does not fund Amtrak enough- because it operates like an adventure/retirement home for folks with all the time in the world, and not as a means of transport as trains do in rest of the world.

I find it amusing that people on this forum actually support Amtrak's constant delays and call it an "adventure" and am jealous of those who have so much free time that 5 hours of delay is no big deal.

Thirdrail7 said:

I'd disagree with 100% control over how they interact with the passengers. There are operational situations where updates may not be available since the entire crew has to leave the train to find a body, make a repair, get people out of ditches. You can make an announcement that you'll be back in 15 minutes, but if there is no one left inside the train to make an update, it is not forthcoming....and yes, that has happened, particularly on trains without attendants. If you're lucky, you'll have an attendant and they can at least guard the doors and possibly make announcements.

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If Amtrak doesn't control how their own staff interact with their own passengers then who does? If the delay is curious or complicated the staff can simply say "We need some time to investigate the issue and we'll update you again when we know more." It's really not that hard to manage reasonable expectations with a bit of customer service training. Some Amtrak crews do a great job of keeping people informed and updated to the best extent that they can. Other crews barely say or do anything at all. In my view that perpetual inconsistency is 100% Amtrak's problem and nobody else.

Thirdrail7 said:

For the record, the train with the injured passenger was NOT the train Texan Eagle traveled on. That equipment **turned** for the equipment that ultimately became Texan Eagle's train home. So, we don't know what the OBS crew of that train said to their passengers and if you called the reservation center, they would look at his train (which is not two hours late) identify its location to the best of their ability and pass the information.

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Yeah, I realize that the train which injured a passenger and then blocked the route for hours was a different train entirely. Why would passengers on board another Amtrak train need to call the Amtrak reservations center just to find out what is happing to their own Amtrak train? All that does is annoy people already on the train and delay other people trying to make reservations for other trains. Not to mention that the reservations center is often no better at disseminating useful information than the OBS.

Thirdrail7 said:

To wrap this up, if you watch a passengers fall down the steps and break their neck or someone chops off the finger in a door, the F.R.A has instituted a rule that protects you if you're overcome with grief at a passenger being injured on your watch.

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I've seen Amtrak staff overcome with debilitating indifference from working a job they apparently hate. What random unrelated tangent does the FRA have to say about that?

Texan Eagle said:

I find it amusing that people on this forum actually support Amtrak's constant delays and call it an "adventure" and am jealous of those who have so much free time that 5 hours of delay is no big deal.

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I wonder what all these sentimental retirees on sunset joyrides would have said about Amtrak service and schedule keeping back when they were working age stiffs.

Texan Eagle said:

Tennessee Traveler said:

I just completed a coast to coast and return on Amtrak's Capitol Limited and California Zephyr. The westbound Capitol Limited crew was top notch and we arrive right on schedule in Chicago maybe a few minutes early. The OBS crew on the westbound and eastbound California Zephyr's were again top notched and most would call me by my first name.

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There is a day and night difference in Amtrak crew behavior in sleepers vs coach/corridor trains. In sleepers they know good service will get them good tips so they put on their happy face. In coach, they hate everyone who happens to be on the train.

If you expect things to be different, then maybe Amtrak is not for you. Personally, I love the adventure and plan my trips to provide for the delays meaning no less than 5 hours connections.

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And this is why the government does not fund Amtrak enough- because it operates like an adventure/retirement home for folks with all the time in the world, and not as a means of transport as trains do in rest of the world.

I find it amusing that people on this forum actually support Amtrak's constant delays and call it an "adventure" and am jealous of those who have so much free time that 5 hours of delay is no big deal.

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I find it amusing that such a learned traveler would bet his whole day on a fifteen minute connection and claim someone may hate you because of it. I also find it amusing that people are surprised that a train, which travels on the ground were all sorts of things can occur are surprised that delays occur.

This problem is not just an Amtrak phenomenon. There is not one mode of transportation that isn't subject to delay, which makes just about any trip an adventure. I can't even drive across my state without wondering 'what lane is closed today" or "who's blocking traffic because they are on their roof in the median."

Devil's Advocate said:

Thirdrail7 said:

I'd disagree with 100% control over how they interact with the passengers. There are operational situations where updates may not be available since the entire crew has to leave the train to find a body, make a repair, get people out of ditches. You can make an announcement that you'll be back in 15 minutes, but if there is no one left inside the train to make an update, it is not forthcoming....and yes, that has happened, particularly on trains without attendants. If you're lucky, you'll have an attendant and they can at least guard the doors and possibly make announcements.

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If Amtrak doesn't control how their own staff interact with their own passengers then who does? If the delay is curious or complicated the staff can simply say "We need some time to investigate the issue and we'll update you again when we know more." It's really not that hard to manage reasonable expectations with a bit of customer service training. Some Amtrak crews do a great job of keeping people informed and updated to the best extent that they can. Other crews barely say or do anything at all. In my view that perpetual inconsistency is 100% Amtrak's problem and nobody else.

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There is a key difference in the term that you're using and that word is control. Not everything is always within the parameters of a script. Not everything can be controlled, particularly when emotions are involved. You can train people and hope they react a certain way, but you'll really know what will happen until a situation occurs. Additionally, as I mentioned in this thread, what announcements work for one person may indeed be a nuisance for others. Some of this is reading your passengers since not all passengers or their travel needs are the same. There's usually not a situation that is 100% like the last situation, so why would you expect a consistent response?

I guess the only 100% consistency is 100% inconsistency!

Devil's Advocate said:

Thirdrail7 said:

For the record, the train with the injured passenger was NOT the train Texan Eagle traveled on. That equipment **turned** for the equipment that ultimately became Texan Eagle's train home. So, we don't know what the OBS crew of that train said to their passengers and if you called the reservation center, they would look at his train (which is not two hours late) identify its location to the best of their ability and pass the information.

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Yeah, I realize that the train which injured a passenger and then blocked the route for hours was a different train entirely. Why would passengers on board another Amtrak train need to call the Amtrak reservations center just to find out what is happing to their own Amtrak train? All that does is annoy people already on the train and delay other people trying to make reservations for other trains. Not to mention that the reservations center is often no better at disseminating useful information than the OB

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Which makes sense when you're up to 2,500 miles away, can't see the actual train and may not have yet gotten word that there may be an issue.

Devil's Advocate said:

Thirdrail7 said:

To wrap this up, if you watch a passengers fall down the steps and break their neck or someone chops off the finger in a door, the F.R.A has instituted a rule that protects you if you're overcome with grief at a passenger being injured on your watch.

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I've seen Amtrak staff overcome with debilitating indifference from working a job they apparently hate. What random unrelated tangent does the FRA have to say about that?

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Which goes back to what I stated above. You can train someone but you'll never know how they'll react until they're in the situation. Obviously, you've met a resilient group of people in your travels. I've met people that haven't been able to overcome and never came back, like the relatively new a/c who watched someone burn up after touching the catenary. He never came back. So, perhaps the FRA is indeed working on a rule for that as we speak but I could see you were very concerned when you made this statement

Maybe they were overcome with grief at a passenger being injured on their watch.

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I wanted to put your mind at ease. It has been handled. If the F.R.A. looks for input on rule pertaining to indifferent employees, I will be sure to post the link so you can weigh in.

Tennessee Traveler said:

The OBS crew on the westbound and eastbound California Zephyr's were again top notched and most would call me by my first name. I had the same crew both directions and special salute to my SCA Dennis.

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To be fair... You got really lucky. Dennis is one of the best SCA's on Amtrak. Was the LSA B? He and his Diner crew are great as well. I've had that crew a couple of times and loved my rides on the zephyr. My last ride on the zephyr was a total 180, my SCA and the LSA continually scolded me and the rest of the passengers for doing everything wrong. Acted like we were all a nuisance basically. It's that inconsistency in service that makes me not want to reccomend Amtrak.

caravanman said:

Maybe part of the solution would be to give train staff the authority to show initiative, maybe telephone ahead so the connecting bus can be held?

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AFAICT, dedicated Amtrak Thruway buses already wait for the train. However, in this case there is no Thruway bus that departs Santa Clara, so presumably the OP was connecting to a local transit system.

In that case, the logistics of relaying the message from the train crew to the bus driver would be considerable (though not insurmountable), but you also have to consider other factors such as: Does the local transit service market this bus as a connection from the train, or does the bus route simply pass by the station en route from elsewhere to elsewhere? In the latter case, it makes little sense to expect a bus full of local commuters to wait around for a couple of people connecting from the train.

Texan Eagle said:

KmH said:

Frankly, the OP sounds like the kind of person that perceives the world they want it to be, rather than the way it actually is.

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Yeah man, totally. After traveling 50,000 miles, including on every single Amtrak route west of Chicago, having written travel blogs for multiple sites encouraging people to try Amtrak, having won Amtrak's "See America by Train" competition 3 years ago that bagged me a DSLR as a gift from Amtrak, I am totally a whiny complaining guy who doesn't know how Amtrak's world works. You got it.

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Texan Eagle said:

So yeah, take your sarcasm somewhere else.

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So wait is sarcasm allowed or not?

peter

PerRock said:

So wait is sarcasm allowed or not?

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Like everything on Amtrak, it is allowed when it is allowed, not allowed when it is not. Depends on the mood, person and phase of the moon

Thirdrail7 said:

I find it amusing that such a learned traveler would bet his whole day on a fifteen minute connection and claim someone may hate you because of it. I also find it amusing that people are surprised that a train, which travels on the ground were all sorts of things can occur are surprised that delays occur.

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I will say it a third time- missing my 15 minute connection is least of my complaint, I mentioned that as one of the things, the more pressing issue here is 1) Amtrak's lax attitude towards delays, like when the Customer Relations guy said that 30-45 minute delays are "as good as on time", which in my opinion is unacceptable on a train whose entire journey is 2-3 hours long, and 2) the onboard crew having zero interest in proactively informing passengers what is going on, and even when asked specifically, shrugging off and walking away.

What Texan Eagle said, doubled. The problem is communications. This problem is entirely under the control of Amtrak. It's a difficult problem, to be sure, requiring a lot of planning and a lot of training, but right now it seems like management isn't paying any attention to it at all!

I've had some experiences where the communications was great. Maybe the management in those particular areas were bothering. In other areas, they just don't even seem to try, and unfortunately those areas include NY Penn, Chicago Union Station, and LA Union Station, which is kind of bad. Failures of communications at those locations cascades into communications failures on almost every train, because a lot of communications needs to go through those locations.

I wonder whether there is a bit of sheer lack of resources problem or inappropriate resource allocation or a bit of both. It seems to me that Amtrak fails to use even its web site and Twitter account as effectively as they could to communicate anything. There may be a bit of inadequate and obsolete technology issue involved too. Yeah, sometimes it works out, but most of the time it is lagging. Maybe staffing at CNOC is not adequate for keeping customers informed at this time, and given the perennial resource crunch that is conceivable if not defensible.

In my air travels I have gotten so used to having almost upto the minute information on what is going on, including the complete goofups created by the airline and ATC together at times, that being as much in the dark as one is on Amtrak is a little disconcerting. I know there are good people at Amtrak that try hard to make things right in spite of everything, but it is not possible for them to fix systemic problems without the cooperation of their immense management structure above them.

My experience with onboard crew on the Capitol Corridor has been great. The conductors have always been polite and usually cheerful, even when they're rushed as they usually are. The cafe attendants are friendly and efficient. The food is good, the beer is cold and well selected and the cars, including the bathrooms, are clean. It's not in the same league as Japanese trains, but there is a night and day difference between my onboard experience on the CC versus what I typically get on the Coast Starlight, running the same route – I agree with you 100% on that.

Planning a 15 minute connection on a commuter route is completely reasonable – that's what commuter service is all about. I routinely count on a 12 minute bus connection in San Jose, and have been lucky so far. One of these days, I'll probably miss it and I hope I'll roll with it – travel delays are a fact of life in the Bay Area. But that does not excuse the lackadaisical attitude that Amtrak employees have regarding on time performance, onboard CC staff generally excepted. S*** does happen, but it should be treated as such and not as acceptable performance.

Texan Eagle said:

There is a day and night difference in Amtrak crew behavior in sleepers vs coach/corridor trains. In sleepers they know good service will get them good tips so they put on their happy face. In coach, they hate everyone who happens to be on the train.

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Classic example in Chicago union station today. The ticket agent prints gf's ticket. Hands it to her and doesn't speak or say anything. Should have at least smiled and directed her to the metropolitan lounge for boarding.

The guy in the lounge started off by telling her no outside food and beverage. She asked about red cap service and he did facilitate that. The redcap was very professional. Best of the three employees that interacted with gf.

The other two did the minimum. I think managers must scold employees if pax bring in food. So that might be why the agents are so focused on this.

This is all controlled by Amtrak. And could be fixed.

Tennessee Traveler said:

I just completed a coast to coast and return on Amtrak's Capitol Limited and California Zephyr. The westbound Capitol Limited crew was top notch and we arrive right on schedule in Chicago maybe a few minutes early. The OBS crew on the westbound and eastbound California Zephyr's were again top notched and most would call me by my first name. I had the same crew both directions and special salute to my SCA Dennis. I had the coughing nasal congestion bug both directions and Dennis next door in roomette 001 (I was in 003) was concerned for my health and checked up on me regularly. Also in both directions we had lead engine event delays. The conductor in each occasion gave us a brief update but he had no way to know how long the corrective action would require. Westbound we were on delayed about 30 minutes but eastbound we were delayed over 3 hours but it was late at night and I slept through the delay. Did not know until after we reached Chicago that the lead engine had been removed and we proceeded with only one engine from eastern Colorado to Chicago. If you expect things to be different, then maybe Amtrak is not for you. Personally, I love the adventure and plan my trips to provide for the delays meaning no less than 5 hours connections. In fact, eastbound I always book a room and overnight in Chicago and proceed on my journey the next day.

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Be sure to fill out employee commendation..Employees really appreciate it..

Amtrak don't have the monopoly for bad communication, last time I took the Eurostar from Lille to London I had someone waiting to collect me and I knew that there was delays on the line due to a cow being hit by a TGV so I pointedly asked customer services what the length of delay would likely be, his response was "your train will depart on time and we are don't know of any delays that will affect your journey.

My train certainly did depart on time and went a whole 500yrd up the line before coming to a complete stop, after 30 minutes the conductor announced that he had just been made aware that a cow had hit a TGV and we would be delayed indefinitely. 4 hours it took before we moved off again.

I was fuming not at the delay (which was out of anyones control) but that they had totally misled me (and even worse no one offered to knock me up a free steak or beefburger despite the abundance of beef about :giggle: :giggle: )

Turn Amtrak over to Richard Branson. Even the food was great on Virgin

bobbarnett said:

Turn Amtrak over to Richard Branson. Even the food was great on Virgin

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Turn Amtrak over to Michael O'Leary. Fares would be cut by 80% but passengers would have to stand in cattle cars and pay for water.

bobbarnett said:

Turn Amtrak over to Richard Branson. Even the food was great on Virgin

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Richard Branson is hardly able to buy anything. If you are referring to the food on Virgin Atlantic, that is owned almost half and half by the Virgin Group and Delta Airlines. If you are talking of Virgin America that is only 25% by the Virgin Group, and Virgin Australia is owned only 10% by the Virgin Group. So All you will get at best is Delta Airlines food, which in First Class is pretty decent.

Food on Virgin Trains is pretty much so so. I spent four days on Virgin Trains in the UK over Thanksgiving. Food was adequate in First Class, but nothing to write home about. Acela First Class food is better.

Branson is an old man now. He's more of a public relations mascot than an actual business leader at this point. I suppose the modern equivalent would be closer to someone like Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk. Hard to imagine someone like that finding much value or interest in running something like Amtrak through.

Devil's Advocate said:

Branson is an old man now. He's more of a public relations mascot than an actual business leader at this point.

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In his case, perhaps that's true. But in point of fact, Branson is younger than Donald Trump, who -- up until about 18 months ago -- may have also been referred to as a public relations mascot rather than an actual business leader. The point being, Branson isn't exactly at death's door.

jis said:

bobbarnett said:

Turn Amtrak over to Richard Branson. Even the food was great on Virgin

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Richard Branson is hardly able to buy anything. If you are referring to the food on Virgin Atlantic, that is owned almost half and half by the Virgin Group and Delta Airlines. If you are talking of Virgin America that is only 25% by the Virgin Group, and Virgin Australia is owned only 10% by the Virgin Group. So All you will get at best is Delta Airlines food, which in First Class is pretty decent.

Food on Virgin Trains is pretty much so so. I spent four days on Virgin Trains in the UK over Thanksgiving. Food was adequate in First Class, but nothing to write home about. Acela First Class food is better.

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And 15 of his business ventures have failed as well. Branson is nothing more than a nicer version of Donald Trump.