Problems with sleepers and diners could be resolved by converting Amtrak to daylight-only trains. If I were confident that I will still be alive in 25 years, I'd bet that only four overnight LD trains will have survived by then (AT, CS, one of the Chicago-NY or Chicago-DC trains, and one of the Chicago-west coast trains). Railfans will moan bitterly. Only a small percentage of the public will even notice, just like only a small percentage of the public noticed when most overnight trains died on or before Amtrak Day.
Silver Star has new Café menu and no diner
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What, people don't eat during the daylight anymore?
I understand what you are suggesting, but it isn't really a practical suggestion given the overwhelming intermediate-point ridership of most long-distance trains. Wherever you put the 'breaking point' for a once continuous route, a majority of the passengers were previously travelling through that intermediate point. You have now almost completely lost that business.
Separate daytime trains over portions of a long-distance do make perfect sense - but in addition to the flagship train running the complete route, not in place of it. A Carolina to Florida day train might have a workable market, but you could never expect it and the Palmetto to take the place of the Star and Meteor.
jis
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There is also the fallacy of "very small percent of people will miss it" using a universe consisting of an unrealistically large population to come up with a low figure. Of course if the NEC goes away a relatively small percentage of the US population will miss it, and an even smaller percentage of the world population will miss it. but that does not make it any less important for the relavent population group for whom it is relevant.
With all due respect to Jis he is flat-out wrong about the NEC. Of course it would be missed, and not by a few. I assume Jis favors retention of the Essential Air Service program, which is kept alive by the same rationale that it's very important to a few people. To a very few people. (Ironically there are EAS airports in the same cities as Amtrak stations... go figure). There's a point where Captain Kirk's line "the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the money" collapses into nonsense. In my opinion LD trains are right on the razor's edge. Redeploying LD assets to corridor trains, 100-400 miles in length, is where the future lies.
jis
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You are very astute in pointing out that I do support the LD trains, and indeed in certain cases I would have no problem supporting the EAS either. What can I say, I am a sucker for helping minorities. It is boring to beat the drum of majority causes since there is very little to contribute there. 
Now explain to me, why would anyone in California or Poland miss the NEC service provided by Amtrak. It is only those that happen to use or have a potential to use the NEC Amtrak service that will miss it directly. Indirectly of course a larger group of people will miss it in terms of the traffic jams that they might get into, though it is not really that drastic with just Amtrak out.
Since you mentioned "small percentage" I assumed that this was being calculated relative to some universal set. I have never said that the absolute number of people that might miss the Amtrak NEC is small. But when you say "percentage" the issue is what population are you calculating the percentage relative to? Keep in mind that the NEC is actually used by a relatively small percentage of the US population, and the Amtrak NEC service even less so. No, the ridership of NEC does not give us the number of distinct people that use the NEC. That is a much much smaller number than the ridership numbers.
That was my whole point. So when a statement is made saying a "small percentage" would miss something it makes sense to think about what is the universe of discourse of which the small percentage is. These are statistical games that are played all the time. When one wants to claim something is important, one carefully chooses a suitably "gerrymandered" universal set to make the percentages come out big. When it is the opposite case one just uses an appropriate plausible large enough universal set to show how minuscule the affected group is. This is the problem with the argument that all rail service should be unfunded and more roads built because clearly only a small percentage of the population will ever use the railroads, whereas everyone uses the roads. An argument that by the way I reject for the same reason that I reject your argument.
Ironically I also believe that the primary growth area is likely to be corridors too. But unlike you, I am unwilling to throw the LD system under the bus. Just like I do support building roads where necessary, but I am unwilling to abandon the passenger railroad system. I am afraid you will have to learn to live with the likes of me whether you like it or not. However, it would appear to be the case that we agree on a few few things and disagree on others, which is usually the normal state of the world. nothing to get all upset about. But I agree that there will be a disagreement about LD trains, and at least on this board clearly there are many that would like to see expansion of LD trains not contraction. So there is an interesting discussion to be had.
Now explain to me, why would anyone in California or Poland miss the NEC service provided by Amtrak. It is only those that happen to use or have a potential to use the NEC Amtrak service that will miss it directly. Indirectly of course a larger group of people will miss it in terms of the traffic jams that they might get into, though it is not really that drastic with just Amtrak out.
Since you mentioned "small percentage" I assumed that this was being calculated relative to some universal set. I have never said that the absolute number of people that might miss the Amtrak NEC is small. But when you say "percentage" the issue is what population are you calculating the percentage relative to? Keep in mind that the NEC is actually used by a relatively small percentage of the US population, and the Amtrak NEC service even less so. No, the ridership of NEC does not give us the number of distinct people that use the NEC. That is a much much smaller number than the ridership numbers.
That was my whole point. So when a statement is made saying a "small percentage" would miss something it makes sense to think about what is the universe of discourse of which the small percentage is. These are statistical games that are played all the time. When one wants to claim something is important, one carefully chooses a suitably "gerrymandered" universal set to make the percentages come out big. When it is the opposite case one just uses an appropriate plausible large enough universal set to show how minuscule the affected group is. This is the problem with the argument that all rail service should be unfunded and more roads built because clearly only a small percentage of the population will ever use the railroads, whereas everyone uses the roads. An argument that by the way I reject for the same reason that I reject your argument.
Ironically I also believe that the primary growth area is likely to be corridors too. But unlike you, I am unwilling to throw the LD system under the bus. Just like I do support building roads where necessary, but I am unwilling to abandon the passenger railroad system. I am afraid you will have to learn to live with the likes of me whether you like it or not. However, it would appear to be the case that we agree on a few few things and disagree on others, which is usually the normal state of the world. nothing to get all upset about. But I agree that there will be a disagreement about LD trains, and at least on this board clearly there are many that would like to see expansion of LD trains not contraction. So there is an interesting discussion to be had.
Philly Amtrak Fan
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You're entitled to your opinion. I traveled coast to coast back and forth last July/August and never ate in the dining car once. I do realize that many people think the LD experience is important. The problem is for anything high quality it would cost twice as much as you can get for similar items outside. I kind of like having a cheaper sleeper option where you don't have to pay way more for diner service. Ideally we'd have both options but doing so would make sleeper + diner so expensive almost no one could afford it. I kind of like the idea of some trains having no diner if there are comparable trains. Unless you live in Raleigh or a market that is not served by the Silver Meteor, take the Meteor. But shouldn't some people be able to get a bed and not pay $40 a meal? If you can accommodate both these people and the sleeper+diner option on the same train, great. But if the train is too expensive for the common folk to afford a sleeper (or worse a coach seat) so people can still eat on fine china that to me is not a good thing.
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I actually tend to agree with you in general on this Philly. All that I would like to see is a little improvement in the Cafe service as I have mentioned in one of the threads (I forget which). Given the choice and a reasonable cafe car (even something like the Cascades or Downeaster) I'd occasionally use the Dining Car but mostly use the Cafe.
When there still were Slumbercoaches that did not include Diner charges, whereas all regular Sleeping accommodation did, I never ever traveled on regular Sleeper. always took Slumbercoach. I am cheap, what can I say? And I enjoyed every bit of it.
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Still haven't seen an official Amtrak notice on this but we got the official Amtrak email stating this exactly. Our trip was for February.
jb
I got the email too for my March MIA=CVS AGR redemption. There no points adjustment so I guess I'll try to switch to 98 with the earlier departure + less desirable connection in Virginia. Oh hell, I'll probably drop the whole thing :-(
Dixie
Train Attendant
Departing Friday on the Star from Columbia bound for Miami. A week later we'll be making the return journey. It would be nice to have the full dining car back but oh well. The posted Cafe menu does not inspire confidence in my meals for those two days. We've had some really enjoyable times in the dining car on that train. We are going on a cruise, so it will be impossible to pack any of our own for the return trip, though can do for the trip down. Coming off the ship, the train will be a big letdown. Make no mistake, I knew this months ago, but was hoping the situation would be resolved on schedule for future trips on the Star. I'm happy to have a room and bed for my 18+ hours of travel to my cruise port, but the dining car sure would have been nice. Disappointed that breakfast choices are basically a honey bun or microwaved sausage biscuit. And lunch/dinner ... It's as if they don't think there are any distance travelers on the train who might want something more than what they can get at the Sam's Club snack bar.
Thanks to those who posted the menus so we know what to expect. It will be interesting to see how all this works out in due time.
Thanks to those who posted the menus so we know what to expect. It will be interesting to see how all this works out in due time.
neroden
Engineer
Downeaster's the only Amtrak service where I've gotten an acceptable breakfast in the Cafe. (The Oatmeal.)
It's actually breakfast where I find I have to go to the dining car on the other trains. I don't know if this is typical, but I'd expect it; the breakfast selection is dismal even in the Regional and Empire Service cafes.
I've stated before that sleepers are a profitable and worthwhile market; Paulus and I hashed out the math on this, and they seem to be slightly less profitable than coaches on most of the eastern routes, but more profitable on the Lake Shore Limited. But of course on all these routes they're attracting riders who *wouldn't ride coach*, mostly longer-distance riders, so they're a profitable area period. I haven't dug into the western trains but I would be surprised if the math is significantly different.
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Dining cars are another matter; it's just necessary to provide good-enough food service for passengers travelling far enough to need to eat. There are two aspects to this:
(1) Food quality and selection. Since I started travelling Amtrak, the dining cars have declined in quality and selection a lot; the cafe cars have risen in quality a little, but not *enough*. Since the food costs are insignificant compared to the labor, this is *not* the place to skimp.
(2) Service. Both the dining cars and the cafe cars suffer from excessive lines and very bad stocking practices. (The stocking could be improved with a POS inventory tracking system.) The dining cars suffer from poor space usage (some OBS have described this as due to understaffing). The cafe cars suffer additionally from badly-planned closure schedules which lose business.
On trains where the volume of passengers is low enough to avoid major lines at the cafe car, the cafe car is probably sufficient. On trains where it isn't, something more needs to be provided: at-seat cart service is something Amtrak could try instead of a dining car.
Amtrak says that the cafe cars are all profitable already, so they're gonna keep running. If cafe car service can be improved enough, and additional forms of service (cart service, at-seat service) can be added to prevent the formation of long lines, a "super-cafe" offering (with two staff members operating the cafe, much-expanded selection, and restocking at multiple points on the route) might be sufficient even for the longest trains. Unfortunately Amtrak has shown no signs of doing that.
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Let's not forget that the Downeaster is not an Amtrak service. It's a NERPRA service and the food service is contracted out to Epicurean Delight [i think]. That explains why it's such a radical departure from the normal Amtrak eating fare.
Well, it's an Amtrak service as much as any state-supported corridor is (other than Hoosier State, which is a unique situation). The Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority (NNEPRA) is an agency created by the State of Maine, not all that much different from a direct MeDOT subsidy, or from the Joint Powers Authority situation in California for that matter.
Not sure whether anything prevents other state-supported corridors from setting up similar food service to the Downeaster.
Not sure whether anything prevents other state-supported corridors from setting up similar food service to the Downeaster.
jis
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Yes. But Silver Star, which is the subject of this thread, is not a state supported corridor train.
I'll stand by what I said. Like the Hoosier State, Downeasters use Amtak T&E crews, and food service is provided by a non-Amtrak entity.
Amtrak sponsors neither and therefore incurs no loss if there is any, and reaps no income if there is any.
Amtrak sponsors neither and therefore incurs no loss if there is any, and reaps no income if there is any.
Interesting idea from the UK.
Cross Country is the intercity provider for trains not originating or terminating in London and handle about 30 million passengers per year. They have been under criticism for their Amcafe style food, so came up with the solution of ordering your ticket and food at the same time. They only load the hot meals they will actually sell and do not disappoint others by running out.
Since they reserve individual seats they simply match the meal and seat on board.
I do not think that particular solution would work here, but Amtrak has tables and a place to heat food.
As an alternative, Amtrak could match the meal with the passenger in the cafe or diner.
http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/media/278100/cateringmenu.pdf
Cross Country is the intercity provider for trains not originating or terminating in London and handle about 30 million passengers per year. They have been under criticism for their Amcafe style food, so came up with the solution of ordering your ticket and food at the same time. They only load the hot meals they will actually sell and do not disappoint others by running out.
Since they reserve individual seats they simply match the meal and seat on board.
I do not think that particular solution would work here, but Amtrak has tables and a place to heat food.
As an alternative, Amtrak could match the meal with the passenger in the cafe or diner.
http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/media/278100/cateringmenu.pdf
Cross country dinning menus look great.
The night train to Scotland is getting a major overhaul, with a major list of require foods.
I think that state support trains will be requiring better foods, however the fact is they just learned how to contract with Amtrak for base train service. So the new rail dept will get into the issue in the next phase.
Better service, more trains, and faster travel times.
Does NY even have a rail division, or a single point of contact yet?
The night train to Scotland is getting a major overhaul, with a major list of require foods.
I think that state support trains will be requiring better foods, however the fact is they just learned how to contract with Amtrak for base train service. So the new rail dept will get into the issue in the next phase.
Better service, more trains, and faster travel times.
Does NY even have a rail division, or a single point of contact yet?
neroden
Engineer
Sounds great. Amtrak would need to actually accurately and completely document what's in each meal, in advance of ordering, of course (a personal complaint of mine which prevents me from eating most of the dining car food now).
I think it would work more or less. I'm going to add a point: the passenger could also reserve a *time* for their meal with the ticket purchase.
This would work too.
neroden
Engineer
Yes, and no.
That is to say: yes to the first question, no to the second question.
https://www.dot.ny.gov/divisions/operating/opdm/passenger-rail
It's New York! It has two rail divisions!
The Freight and Passenger Rail Bureau is part of the Office of Integrated Modal Services which is part of the Policy and Planning Division. It has
The Rail Projects Group is part of the Engineering Division.
And as for single point of contact... I found:
11 regional rail coordinators
1 RPG director
1 "FRB" director (probably FPRB director in reality)
And it looks like some rail services are handled by yet other people and other divisions.
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As many people suspected and Amtrak has a history of doing, once something is gone it tends not to come back. The Silver Star is now permanently diner-less. Inventory from May 1 on is currently closed while the pricing adjustments are entered. As before, anyone booked after May 1 is entitled to a refund or rebooking to the Silver Meteor.
greatcats
Engineer
Is that official or is the diner return postponed again? Perhaps you are jumping to conclusions.
I believe AmtrakLKL is in a position to know things rather than to speculate on them.
Cho Cho Charlie
Engineer
So, we should see four slightly used Viewliner Diner cars up for sale on eBay soon?
WoodyinNYC
Conductor
Any not-yet-used Viewliner Diners should fetch a nice price on eBay. Amtrak is the only buyer in the market, but it's desperate for equipment to be used elsewhere.
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