Risk of points expiration during transition to AGR 2.0?

Members with large point balances should give some thought to the possibility that their points will expire unexpectedly, based on a conversation I had with an AGR telephone rep yesterday. I explained my situation as follows:

* Large point balance (115,000) largely from use of Chase AGR card

* Redemptions in 2014 and 2015 for Amtrak travel

* No plan to get new BofA AGR card

* Last *paid* Amtrak trip more than three years ago

* No plan to make paid Amtrak trip in 2016

* Plan to redeem point balance for travel in September, 2016

After examining my account, the rep told me, flatly, that my points would expire after the January transition to AGR 2.0 unless I did one of the following:

* Made a paid trip on Amtrak, no matter how short, and earned some miles before the January transition to 2.0; or

* Obtained the new BofA AGR card

The rationale for this, as it was explained to me, is that, under the current policy, points expire after 36 months after paid travel unless you have the AGR card. However, the Chase AGR card goes away after 9/30. There is a grace period UNTIL the January transition date to AGR 2.0. But at that time, unless you get the new card or have some paid travel within three years of the transition date, your points expire.

It's possible that I was misinformed, but I applied for (and got) the new, no annual fee AGR card just in case.

The T&Cs for the New AGR2.0 claim that your points will NOT Expire if you have ANY TYPE of Transaction with AGR including the Shopping Portal, Redemption Award, PAID ticket,acquire a New AGR Card etc.

Also remember, you can book your Award Travel using the Current AGR Rules up to 11 months in advance as long as you do it by Jan. 23,2016!

Probably would save you lots of points since some of the Longer 2 and 3 Zone Trips will require Double or Triple the Number of Points under the Fare Based System that begins Jan. 24,2016!

bryan9 said:

Members with large point balances should give some thought to the possibility that their points will expire unexpectedly, based on a conversation I had with an AGR telephone rep yesterday. I explained my situation as follows:

* Large point balance (115,000) largely from use of Chase AGR card

* No plan to get new BofA AGR card

* Last *paid* Amtrak trip more than three years ago

* No plan to make paid Amtrak trip in 2016

* Plan to redeem point balance for travel in September, 2016

After examining my account, the rep told me, flatly, that my points would expire after the January transition to AGR 2.0 unless I did one of the following:

* Made a paid trip on Amtrak, no matter how short, and earned some miles before the January transition to 2.0; or

* Obtained the new BofA AGR card

The rationale for this, as it was explained to me, is that, under the current policy, points expire after 36 months after paid travel unless you have the AGR card. However, the Chase AGR card goes away after 9/30. There is a grace period UNTIL the January transition date to AGR 2.0. But at that time, unless you get the new card or have some paid travel within three years of the transition date, your points expire.

It's possible that I was misinformed, but I applied for (and got) the new, no annual fee AGR card just in case.

Click to expand...

If the transition date is September 30th 2016 or even as late as January 2017, 3 years from the transition date would be late 2018 or early 2019.

Since you are planning to redeem for travel in 2016, I would think you'd be OK. However, assuming the redemption is for non-Amtrak travel, or your plans change, do you think you'll ride in 2017-2018?

jimhudson said:

The T&Cs for the New AGR2.0 claim that your points will NOT Expire if you have ANY TYPE of Transaction with AGR including the Shopping Portal, Redemption Award, PAID ticket,acquire a New AGR Card etc.

Also remember, you can book your Award Travel using the Current AGR Rules up to 11 months in advance as long as you do it by Jan. 23,2016!

Probably would save you lots of points since some of the Longer 2 and 3 Zone Trips will require Double or Triple the Number of Points under the Fare Based System that begins Jan. 24,2016!

Click to expand...

Thanks! I'm aware that I can redeem my points this fall under the present rules, even for 2016 travel, and that this will be advantageous. I plan to do so. However, I won't use all of my miles for my planned trip. Under the present rules, redemptions don't reset the expiration clock, so the 36 month clock is still ticking for them, and, in January 2016, according to what I was told, they go away. Now that I've got the new AGR card, of course, they won't.

diesteldorf said:

If the transition date is September 30th 2016 or even as late as January 2017, 3 years from the transition date would be late 2018 or early 2019.

Since you are planning to redeem for travel in 2016, I would think you'd be OK. However, assuming the redemption is for non-Amtrak travel, or your plans change, do you think you'll ride in 2017-2018?

Click to expand...

The implication of what I was told, I believe, is that the January transition does *not* reset the three-year clock. (This is what I have assumed - wrongly, as it turns out).

The changeover doesn't reset the clock, but under the new rules, a redemption within the past three years would, so you would be safe without the card.

I do agree that if the current card is the only thing keeping your points alive, and you don't get the new card, and you don't have any earning or redemption activity since January 2013 (meaning you've had the Chase card but not used it), your points will go away. But that should be an extremely narrow set of circumstances.

Ryan said:

The changeover doesn't reset the clock, but under the new rules, a redemption within the past three years would, so you would be safe without the card.

I do agree that if the current card is the only thing keeping your points alive, and you don't get the new card, and you don't have any earning or redemption activity since January 2013 (meaning you've had the Chase card but not used it), your points will go away. But that should be an extremely narrow set of circumstances.

Click to expand...

I should have listed this among the context points in my first post (I'm adding it now), but I *have* had redemptions during the past three years -- I had one earlier this year! I told the AGR rep about this, but it didn't make any difference. I believe the implication here is that the new rules are not retrospective -- that is, specifically, redemptions within the three years prior to the transition date do not reset the clock -- the only thing that does is paid Amtrak travel. I think there are a lot of people in flyover areas -- people who rarely if ever make paid trips -- who might be adversely affected by this interpretation of the rules (if it is indeed the correct one). So, as the AGR rep told me, my only options are to (1) get the new card or (2) make a paid trip before the transition date.

Ryan said:

The changeover doesn't reset the clock, but under the new rules, a redemption within the past three years would, so you would be safe without the card.

I do agree that if the current card is the only thing keeping your points alive, and you don't get the new card, and you don't have any earning or redemption activity since January 2013 (meaning you've had the Chase card but not used it), your points will go away. But that should be an extremely narrow set of circumstances.

Click to expand...

Thanks for pointing that out. Didn't mean to give incorrect information. At least the new program is more liberal with activity that will reset the expiration date.

diesteldorf said:

Ryan said:

The changeover doesn't reset the clock, but under the new rules, a redemption within the past three years would, so you would be safe without the card.

I do agree that if the current card is the only thing keeping your points alive, and you don't get the new card, and you don't have any earning or redemption activity since January 2013 (meaning you've had the Chase card but not used it), your points will go away. But that should be an extremely narrow set of circumstances.

Click to expand...

Thanks for pointing that out. Didn't mean to give incorrect information. At least the new program is more liberal with activity that will reset the expiration date.

Click to expand...

Just be aware that the new, more liberal reset rules do NOT apply retrospectively (according to what I was told) -- I have had monthly credit card earnings and multiple redemptions during the past three years, but my points will expire (I was told) unless I took a paid Amtrak trip before January or got the card.

From what it sounds like to me, you probably should find a means to take a trip to avoid losing those points, unless you get the BofA card. Having the current Chase AGR card is what's keeping your points from expiring.

You can't just find a weekend to do a round trip? I realize it's not going to be convenient given your location.

I suppose you have until 23rd Jan to take a quick one station trip to not lose your points. you won;t lose any points until around 23rd of Jan due to the moratorium on points expiry until then.

But now that the OP has the no-fee BoA AGR card, his problem is solved without the need for a trip.

Yep

AGR Insider has said the opposite, that the new rules will be applied starting in January, using the three previous years.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/25363931-post119.html

We will extend a grace period from 8/27/15 to 1/24/16 when the new rules regarding point expiration will be in place. During this time, members with qualifying earning or redemption activity under the new program rules in the last 36 months will be exempt from point expiration. This includes members who had the Amtrak Guest Rewards MasterCard from Chase on 9/30/15.

Click to expand...

I lean toward trusting him over the interpretation of an AGR call center customer service person.

Eris said:

AGR Insider has said the opposite, that the new rules will be applied starting in January, using the three previous years.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/25363931-post119.html

We will extend a grace period from 8/27/15 to 1/24/16 when the new rules regarding point expiration will be in place. During this time, members with qualifying earning or redemption activity under the new program rules in the last 36 months will be exempt from point expiration. This includes members who had the Amtrak Guest Rewards MasterCard from Chase on 9/30/15.

Click to expand...

I lean toward trusting him over the interpretation of an AGR call center customer service person.

Click to expand...

Ditto! Anthony is The Word!!!!

Eris said:

AGR Insider has said the opposite, that the new rules will be applied starting in January, using the three previous years.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/25363931-post119.html

We will extend a grace period from 8/27/15 to 1/24/16 when the new rules regarding point expiration will be in place. During this time, members with qualifying earning or redemption activity under the new program rules in the last 36 months will be exempt from point expiration. This includes members who had the Amtrak Guest Rewards MasterCard from Chase on 9/30/15.

Click to expand...

I lean toward trusting him over the interpretation of an AGR call center customer service person.

Click to expand...

I totally agree! Still, the language is ambiguous. It merely says that any qualifying activity under the new rules in the last 36 months will prevent point expiration. It doesn't say that this activity resets the expiration clock! I raised this point expressly with the AGR rep, who insisted that recent MasterCard earnings or redemptions would indeed keep my three-year-old-plus miles active UNTIL 1/24/16, by which time I would have needed to take a miles-earning Amtrak trip or obtain the credit card if I wished to retain them. I do sincerely hope she was full of baloney, but to err on the side of caution, I got the new card.

"During this time, members with qualifying earning or redemption activity under the new program rules in the last 36 months will be exempt from point expiration" - this is straightforward- the clock is not reset to zero on 1/24/16, otherwise *no points would carry over into the new program*, with the possible exception of those who applied for and received the new credit card. If the date reset on 1/24/16 and the lookback is never earlier than 1/24/16, then someone without an AGR credit card who rides the train every month on the 26th, paying for their ticket, would have zero points on 1/24/16 because all of their points would expire that day for lack of activity since 1/24/16.

Actually, all points will survive for those who have taken an Amtrak ride within the requisite period even if they never ever owned any credit card. For example, since I rode Amtrak last Sunday my points will live on for 36 months even if I did not ever have a card, old or new.

Remember, the AGR program exists quite independent of the AGR credit card program.

Eris said:

"During this time, members with qualifying earning or redemption activity under the new program rules in the last 36 months will be exempt from point expiration" - this is straightforward- the clock is not reset to zero on 1/24/16, otherwise *no points would carry over into the new program*, with the possible exception of those who applied for and received the new credit card. If the date reset on 1/24/16 and the lookback is never earlier than 1/24/16, then someone without an AGR credit card who rides the train every month on the 26th, paying for their ticket, would have zero points on 1/24/16 because all of their points would expire that day for lack of activity since 1/24/16.

Click to expand...

I believe what Anthony is claiming is that at the time of the change to the new AGR, they will look back at any kind of activity (even with the old Chase AGR card) that would reset the 36 month window under the new rules. So credit card earning, getting AGR points through a hotel/rental car program, or even a redemption should qualify. In the last year, other than paid Amtrak trips, I've gotten hotel points and redeemed a trip, so theoretically I wouldn't have needed to earn points through Amtrak travel to keep my points from expiring.

BCL said:

Eris said:

"During this time, members with qualifying earning or redemption activity under the new program rules in the last 36 months will be exempt from point expiration" - this is straightforward- the clock is not reset to zero on 1/24/16, otherwise *no points would carry over into the new program*, with the possible exception of those who applied for and received the new credit card. If the date reset on 1/24/16 and the lookback is never earlier than 1/24/16, then someone without an AGR credit card who rides the train every month on the 26th, paying for their ticket, would have zero points on 1/24/16 because all of their points would expire that day for lack of activity since 1/24/16.

Click to expand...

I believe what Anthony is claiming is that at the time of the change to the new AGR, they will look back at any kind of activity (even with the old Chase AGR card) that would reset the 36 month window under the new rules. So credit card earning, getting AGR points through a hotel/rental car program, or even a redemption should qualify. In the last year, other than paid Amtrak trips, I've gotten hotel points and redeemed a trip, so theoretically I wouldn't have needed to earn points through Amtrak travel to keep my points from expiring.

Click to expand...

Yes, precisely. I'm not sure if I'm being misunderstood but I was attempting to say exactly that- that Anthony is saying there isn't a problem.

Eris said:

BCL said:

Eris said:

"During this time, members with qualifying earning or redemption activity under the new program rules in the last 36 months will be exempt from point expiration" - this is straightforward- the clock is not reset to zero on 1/24/16, otherwise *no points would carry over into the new program*, with the possible exception of those who applied for and received the new credit card. If the date reset on 1/24/16 and the lookback is never earlier than 1/24/16, then someone without an AGR credit card who rides the train every month on the 26th, paying for their ticket, would have zero points on 1/24/16 because all of their points would expire that day for lack of activity since 1/24/16.

Click to expand...

I believe what Anthony is claiming is that at the time of the change to the new AGR, they will look back at any kind of activity (even with the old Chase AGR card) that would reset the 36 month window under the new rules. So credit card earning, getting AGR points through a hotel/rental car program, or even a redemption should qualify. In the last year, other than paid Amtrak trips, I've gotten hotel points and redeemed a trip, so theoretically I wouldn't have needed to earn points through Amtrak travel to keep my points from expiring.

Click to expand...

Yes, precisely. I'm not sure if I'm being misunderstood but I was attempting to say exactly that- that Anthony is saying there isn't a problem.

Click to expand...

I think the worry is from those who haven't taken a paid trip in the last 36 months, like the OP. The credit card was the only thing keeping the points from vanishing. There seems to be some uncertainty about perhaps those points going away if somehow there's a gap where the credit card no longer holds the points, but the 36 month paid trip rule is enforced.

But under the new rules, any activity would be enough- so the points added by charges on the August, 2015 statement (for example) of the Chase AGR Mastercard should count. Also, in the case of the OP, redemption travel also counts.

Yeah, this isn't complicated. Nothing will expire until January. In January the new rules say that any activity will allow points to not expire, so there is very little chance for someone to be caught with expiring points.

If anyone is unclear about what Anthony posted, it means that there are others unclear. Asking Anthony to clarify would be the best alternative.

And then there are those to whom even Anthony cannot clarify