Let's Help Amtrak Lose Money

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Everydaymatters

Everydaymatters

Engineer
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
3,406
Location
Just North of Normal, Illinois
We are supposed to be Amtrak's best customers, yet throughout the forum we advise people who complain about any problem to call Amtrak and get a voucher.

On my last trip, the shower water was cold. The BNSF track was rough and I ended up with a bruise. The SA overslept and there was no coffee in the morning. The rattling sound from the top bunk was annoying.

No big deal, I got home safely and had great SA's. Yet these are some of the very things we are advising people they can get vouchers for. On the trip home I was wondering how many people on the train had their travel partially or completely paid for by Amtrak vouchers.

Maybe we should start reversing this and stop asking for vouchers for Every. Little. Thing. Who knows? It might even help Amtrak in the long run.
 
Ralfans sometimes are the worst enemy of the possibility of the railroads actually surviving, unfortunately. One of their favorite activities is to try to spend as little money as possible to get as much out of the railroad as possible (or extracts as much vouchers as possible out of the railroad) using every piece of obscure knowledge that they can cobble together. Of course that does help move the railroad towards financial illness, thought to a very small extent hopefully.
 
For the price I have sometimes paid for sleeper accomodations, I do expect hot water in the shower, hot coffee in the morning, and courteous service from all employees. I would not expect a voucher for rough rail. But first class sleeper prices should come with functioning showers and coffee.
 
How about Amtrak just provides the service we are paying for? Hopefully, some day they will realize that it would be cheaper to fix the hot water, coffee maker and the SCA than it is to continue to refund passengers.

Or, perhaps, refunds are cheaper than fixing those things, so no guilt in asking for them.
 
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What Amtrak truly needs - more than anything else, including support from Congress - is more people who want to travel by rail. If enough Americans demand quality, affordable rail travel, even our government will finally come around to the idea.

When casual travelers take Amtrak & the experience goes badly, they probably don't complain to Amtrak or ask for vouchers - they just vow to never travel by train ever again, and to complain to everyone they know about their awful experiences. They write off rail travel as a bad investment, and will simply stop caring about it.

Only railfans take the time to tell Amtrak when something doesn't go well - or when it does.

Sometimes, I think our "scope of work" as railfans is too large. Rather than trying to increase Amtrak's funding or reinstate lost trains, I think we're better off fighting the small battles - reporting lazy employees, and getting broken stuff fixed. This may help future non-railfan travelers have better experiences, & hopefully make new railfans.

On our last trip (LA-CHI on the SWC), a bad smell started coming from the sewage system on the first day. It kept getting worse and worse, and by the last day we were breathing through our clothes so we didn't become ill. I'm glad Chicago was the final stop, as I could not have continued on that train any longer.

I wrote to Amtrak about it, and after several months they gave me a voucher - for a whopping $25. I don't even know how to use a $25 voucher. The voucher isn't the point. The point is that when something goes wrong - and there was every sign that the particular sleeping car was not in a state of good repair - everyone suffers, but not everyone is going to say something about it. We need to be the ones who say something about it so that bad cars like that don't go out again.
 
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D.P. Roberts said:
Only railfans take the time to tell Amtrak when something doesn't go well - or when it does.
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Well, to be fair, many non railfans do complain. Only they complain on AU! :D
But you're right - if they don't know that a state of bad repair is having a negative affect on its passsengers, they have NO motivation for stopping it.

For what it's worth, I saw the Meteor come through Savannah recently, and lo and behold, there were flowers in the diner. Someone out there still does care for the passengers.
 
D.P. Roberts said:
What Amtrak truly needs - more than anything else, including support from Congress - is more people who want to travel by rail. If enough Americans demand quality, affordable rail travel, even our government will finally come around to the idea.

When casual travelers take Amtrak & the experience goes badly, they probably don't complain to Amtrak or ask for vouchers - they just vow to never travel by train ever again, and to complain to everyone they know about their awful experiences. They write off rail travel as a bad investment, and will simply stop caring about it.

Only railfans take the time to tell Amtrak when something doesn't go well - or when it does.

Sometimes, I think our "scope of work" as railfans is too large. Rather than trying to increase Amtrak's funding or reinstate lost trains, I think we're better off fighting the small battles - reporting lazy employees, and getting broken stuff fixed. This may help future non-railfan travelers have better experiences, & hopefully make new railfans.

On our last trip (LA-CHI on the SWC), a bad smell started coming from the sewage system on the first day. It kept getting worse and worse, and by the last day we were breathing through our clothes so we didn't become ill. I'm glad Chicago was the final stop, as I could not have continued on that train any longer.

I wrote to Amtrak about it, and after several months they gave me a voucher - for a whopping $25. I don't even know how to use a $25 voucher. The voucher isn't the point. The point is that when something goes wrong - and there was every sign that the particular sleeping car was not in a state of good repair - everyone suffers, but not everyone is going to say something about it. We need to be the ones who say something about it so that bad cars like that don't go out again.
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Part of the challenge is that passenger rail service is in essence bootstrapping itself from the 1960's sharp decline and the good news is that almost anything that will still roll has passengers in it... the bad news is when things go bad there are no readily available replacements (ie a protection sleeper sitting at ABQ that could have been swapped out for the sewer bucket).

A false concept that many railfans and congresscritters have is that Amtrak "loses" money (or "bleeds" it). The reality is that Congress sees fit to pay Amtrak a portion of the cost to do what Amtrak does. Congress has yet to set achievable benchmarks for performance that could with effort and reward be exceeded, or if not met result in allowing existing managment and employees to seek new opportunities AND be attractive for new talent to find success.

That said, complaining about issues that should be fixed does make a record, and hopefully someone will be able to recognize that additional equipment and maintainance is needed systemwide. However, with limited resources, capital improvement in the NE corridor looks like the number 1, 2 and 3 priorities.
 
I totally agree that this is a Management and Micro- Management Problem by Amtrak Suits and Congressional Stuffed Shirts!

While I do take a couple of AGR LD Award Trips, I also make lots of point runs and even Paid Sleeping Car Trips and for the Money I expect Clean, Mechanically functioning equipment, courteous and professional service by all Amtrak Employees and good information provided on the train when stuff happens!

Nickel and dimeing in the Diner is total BS, copying the Airlines by racing to the bottom is not a good long term strategy!

I've received several thousands of dollars in vouchers which was spent on future travel but the reason I call is to help Amtrak improve, not to get a Voucher!

What's been happening in CHI with the mess that's ongoing has probably cost Amtrak much more than issuing smile and go away vouchers but who would know, the numbers are secret just like most things out of 60 Mass!

Time for the IG to get off his duff and kick ass and take names before, shudder, Congress starts holding Dog and Pony Shows, er Hearings!
 
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Everydaymatters said:
We are supposed to be Amtrak's best customers, yet throughout the forum we advise people who complain about any problem to call Amtrak and get a voucher.

On my last trip, the shower water was cold. The BNSF track was rough and I ended up with a bruise. The SA overslept and there was no coffee in the morning. The rattling sound from the top bunk was annoying.

No big deal, I got home safely and had great SA's. Yet these are some of the very things we are advising people they can get vouchers for. On the trip home I was wondering how many people on the train had their travel partially or completely paid for by Amtrak vouchers.

Maybe we should start reversing this and stop asking for vouchers for Every. Little. Thing. Who knows? It might even help Amtrak in the long run.
Click to expand...
i wouldn't request a voucher for the things you mention but i will and do request them for very late trains(greater than 6 hours) or being bused when i am in sleeper.
 
Everydaymatters said:
When the train is late, it is often because the host railroad has freight or is doing track work. Do they compensate Amtrak for their delay?
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i thought amtrak was supposed to receive something for delays from the host railroad. others on the board will know better if that is so or not. but amtrak sells me a ticket with a departure and arrival time. i reserve lodging, rental car, the time of family and friends based on that. a delay of a few hours, even though it may cause trouble and expense, is just part of traveling. 6 hours or more basically subtracts a day from my plans and my trip and a voucher seems reasonable as amtrak told me on the ticket i paid for that they would get me from point a to point b in a given time.
 
Besides Amtrak having a public that would support train travel, it sure could use some competition to force it to do better.

Maybe if All Aboard Florida gets off the ground it can hopefully show that private enterprise can work again and lead to some more private financing of rail routes and

passenger trains.
 
Everydaymatters said:
When the train is late, it is often because the host railroad has freight or is doing track work. Do they compensate Amtrak for their delay?
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Nope.

Most of the agreements are "confidential", but the agreement with Pan Am regarding the Vermonter was published recently in a filing; the maximum penalty for Pan Am delaying a train is a whopping $480. Yes, that's dollars, not hundreds or thousands of dollars.
 
Most of the time when I contact Amtrak, I always start with the positives because for the most part in our journeys there have been great people but I believe that they need to hear about outlets that don't work, showers that are cold or conductors who aren't communicating to their passengers. Feedback is needed and should be considered valuable - both positive and negative.
 
If we lump sum in all passenger traffic from both rail and air; from the statistics that I read approximately 10% of all passenger ridership is done by rail. That amounts to 30,000,000 passengers which is a significant portion of the passenger audience.

If we consider the amount of vouchers that Amtrak gives out; in the context of the whole, the amount should be at noise level.

Any business has to make adjustments for poor service, Amtrak included. The answer is to work toward the goal of providing good service so that vouchers become un-necessary. It should be known that Amtrak has cut back on giving vouchers as well. For instance, hotel vouchers use to be given if the EB arrived later than the connection east at CHI. Recently only the late evening LSL is a guaranteed connection. If you miss the CL or Card its tough luck, and you stay over and have meals on your nickel, that is if you can even find a hotel room in CHI.
 
D. P. Roberts is correct. When most people receive poor service, they just do not use that service again. It could be a restaurant, hotel, auto mechanic, or Amtrak. It's those that care are the ones that normally complain, or should I say give constructive criticism when things are not as good as they are expected to be.

By directing those that are upset to call and voice their complaints it helps bring a greater awareness to a certain problem. For example, if one person complains about an OBS employee, it might be dismissed as someone having a bad day, etc. But if a bunch of people make the same call, then it may be investigated and corrected (by training or other method).

Yes there are people out there that are looking for something for free whenever the slightest thing goes wrong, but I would guess that most of us here would rate having the issue fixed a greater priority than some kind of monetary reimbursement.
 
ronkstevens said:
D. P. Roberts is correct. When most people receive poor service, they just do not use that service again. It could be a restaurant, hotel, auto mechanic, or Amtrak. It's those that care are the ones that normally complain, or should I say give constructive criticism when things are not as good as they are expected to be.

By directing those that are upset to call and voice their complaints it helps bring a greater awareness to a certain problem. For example, if one person complains about an OBS employee, it might be dismissed as someone having a bad day, etc. But if a bunch of people make the same call, then it may be investigated and corrected (by training or other method).

Yes there are people out there that are looking for something for free whenever the slightest thing goes wrong, but I would guess that most of us here would rate having the issue fixed a greater priority than some kind of monetary reimbursement.
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Yaah --- but -- when the service is any transport mode --guess what -- whether higways, tolwayys, railrooadds, or locks and dams.

In any case the buyers of politicians have monopolized the rails, roads, rivers.

And, if I guess my fellow humans, every thing we do will be cheated by sociopaths. For ever and ever. Even killing them all won't work. It takes a sociopath to screw a whole nation out of rights to land, give the land to "railroads" and watch all that land gift turned around to screw us over a century later.

Learn to walk -- any monopole transport mode what owns politican will try to screw us all.

Sorry for attending a whisky tasting. Might be slightly incoherent.

But the main point still holds. Bribe some money-holders with dreams of wealth -- get a transcontinental railroad.

Let the successors-at-law class I railroads keep asking for money, without keeping their ancient predecessors part of the 1860's bargain.

Buy the monopoly, screw the customers. Buy the government also.
 
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I agree we should let Amtrak know about problems, and direct others to do the same. BUT, I don't think we should mention/promote the idea of asking (or even demanding) a voucher for every little thing, which I have seen on AU too many times.
 
I am grateful that in almost forty years of management positions I have been part of and responsible for some success. One of my principles was to take care of the details, because paying attention to them makes the overall process work. I've participated in some very innovative programs in my career, some on the cutting edge of technology but each and every time I started with "What will the user get out of this" gnawing down from a 30,000 foot view to the one foot view.

This to some extent echoes DP' s point.

All systems have flaws, Amtrak included. We have a variety or suggestions, it would just be nice if someone listened to them because many of us really do care.
 
jimhudson said:
I totally agree that this is a Management and Micro- Management Problem by Amtrak Suits and Congressional Stuffed Shirts!

While I do take a couple of AGR LD Award Trips, I also make lots of point runs and even Paid Sleeping Car Trips and for the Money I expect Clean, Mechanically functioning equipment, courteous and professional service by all Amtrak Employees and good information provided on the train when stuff happens!

Nickel and dimeing in the Diner is total BS, copying the Airlines by racing to the bottom is not a good long term strategy!

I've received several thousands of dollars in vouchers which was spent on future travel but the reason I call is to help Amtrak improve, not to get a Voucher!

What's been happening in CHI with the mess that's ongoing has probably cost Amtrak much more than issuing smile and go away vouchers but who would know, the numbers are secret just like most things out of 60 Mass!

Time for the IG to get off his duff and kick ass and take names before, shudder, Congress starts holding Dog and Pony Shows, er Hearings!
Click to expand...
Re your quote regarding the nickel and dime Amtrak approach in the Dining cars I am reminded of a famous quote( can't remember from who) that states that in business you can't cut your way to profitability!! It has been tried by many companies and rarely succeeds in the long run. Short term gains are possible but the long term adverse effects of this type of thinking usually come back to bite you in the rear end.
 
jimhudson said:
Time for the IG to get off his duff and kick ass and take names before, shudder, Congress starts holding Dog and Pony Shows, er Hearings!
Click to expand...
Considering that it was the Amtrak Inspector General 2013 report on Food and Beverage service losses combined with Mica's fixation that appear to the major triggers for the rounds of service cuts to the diner cars, be careful what you ask for.
 
Inspector Generals job is to investigate mismanagement of any kind in their agency or department without fear or favor, not hide or cover up malfeasance which occurs everyday in all governmental entities including Amtrak!

The current mess with the LD Trains ( how much is the CHI mess costing Amtrak???)and Amtrak Management trying to appease certain Congressional Critics with nickel and dime cuts that hurt the customers is the very reason the IG needs to investigate what is happening @ 60 Mass!

Let the chips fall where they may, though the heavens fall! "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself!"

William Shakespeare and FDR among others!

!
 
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