Southwest Chief Carter Admin Chopping Block Survival

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seat38a

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The Southwest Chief is always mentioned as having survived the 1979 Carter Administration chopping block. How was it able to survive the axe when other LD like the Lone Star got chopped? I'm guessing some important or influential people were involved. There does not seem to be very much information on how it survived but just that it survived.
 
seat38a said:
The Southwest Chief is always mentioned as having survived the 1979 Carter Administration chopping block. How was it able to survive the axe when other LD like the Lone Star got chopped? I'm guessing some important or influential people were involved. There does not seem to be very much information on how it survived but just that it survived.
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I don't know if this is true or something I misunderstood, but I vaguely recall that the Southwest Chief at one time had the best cost recovery of all the western LD trains.
 
I don't remember the Southwest Chief being considered for discontinuance in 1979. It was well patronized and unlike now was mostly on time. Both the Floridian and National Limited ran on very bad track on the Penn Central and often ran late. The North coast Hiawatha was a political train and its biggest supporter Mike Mansfield was no longer in the Senate. At the time, Arkansas had more influence than Kansas and Oklahoma so The Texas Chief was discontinued. The Champion and Silver Meteor were combined from New York to Jacksonville. Those were the major cuts in 1979.
 
If you're talking about recent bad OTP, some of that can be attributed to it holding at CHI for connections. Also, did the southwest have unusual wet/stormy weather this year that may have caused issues on that end of the route?
 
AmtrakBlue said:
If you're talking about recent bad OTP, some of that can be attributed to it holding at CHI for connections. Also, did the southwest have unusual wet/stormy weather this year that may have caused issues on that end of the route?
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No, from what I have read, during the 1979 cuts, SWC was one that Carter (personally or through his minions) wanted cut but survived chopping block.
 
Carter I am sure had no personal opinion about any Amtrak train, and most likely did not have any opinion about the details of what Amtrak does, or even what Amtrak does at all. It was a budget decision that was made by the Congress and the Carter administration who were faced with a pretty grim economic situation. Been there and lived through that. It was the then Amtrak administration who decided what to cut and what not to cut.

The original plan presented by the FRA was much more draconian. It also included the Crescent, the SWC, the Pioneer, the San Joaquins, the Hiawathas and the Eagle. The proposal was to replace the SWC by the Desert Wind. The outcome was that the SWC stayed and the Desert Wind was added. The Pioneer was saved by Bob Packwood. The Eagle survivied due to some regional considerations since its removal would have removed all service from several states. Those were grim days. Brock Adams was the SecDoT boss then, so much of this was his doing. Alan Boyd was the Amtrak boss for the period when most damage was done. Much to the chagrin of many, even back then, nothing was cut in the Northeast, though the Champion did go bye bye, as did the National Limited, to be replaced by the Pennsylvanian, preserving its eastern end. And of course the famous Hilltopper which was a weird train to start with. But the Colonial, which was an anemic 3 car train to Newport News was not on any hit list.

Of course within two years of the 79 mayhem, the Cardinal was briefly cut, as were several other trains. Only the Cardinal got immediately restored. During the Carter administration the following trains were added to assuage various parties:

  • 1977: Seattle - Salt Lake City Pioneer
  • Fifth San Diegan
  • 1978: Sixth San Diegan
  • Washington-Philadelphia Chesapeake
  • 1980: Second San Joaquin
  • Philadelphia - Pittsburgh Pennsylvanian
  • Portland - Eugene Willamette Valley
  • Chicago - East Peoria Prairie Marksman
  • Chicago - Indianapolis Hoosier
  • Kansas City - St. Louis Mules
  • Seventh San Diegan

Edit: Corrected Brock Adam's title and added ref to Alan Boyd as Amtrak boss.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
jis said:
Carter I am sure had no personal opinion about any Amtrak train, and most likely did not have any opinion about the details of what Amtrak does, or even what Amtrak does at all. It was a budget decision that was made by the Congress and the Carter administration who were faced with a pretty grim economic situation. Been there and lived through that. It was the then Amtrak administration who decided what to cut and what not to cut.

The original plan presented by the FRA was much more draconian. It also included the Crescent, the SWC, the Pioneer, the San Joaquins, the Hiawathas and the Eagle. The proposal was to replace the SWC by the Desert Wind. The outcome was that the SWC stayed and the Desert Wind was added. The Pioneer was saved by Bob Packwood. The Eagle survivied due to some regional considerations since its removal would have removed all service from several states. Those were grim days. Brock Adams was the Amtrak boss then. Much to the chagrin of many, even back then, nothing was cut in the Northeast, though the Champion did go bye bye, as did the National Limited, to be replaced by the Pennsylvanian, preserving its eastern end. And of course the famous Hilltopper which was a weird train to start with. But the Colonial, which was an anemic 3 car train to Newport News was not on any hit list.

Of course within two years of the 79 mayhem, the Cardinal was briefly cut, as were several other trains. Only the Cardinal got immediately restored. During the Carter administration the following trains were added to assuage various parties:

  • 1977: Seattle - Salt Lake City Pioneer
  • Fifth San Diegan
  • 1978: Sixth San Diegan
  • Washington-Philadelphia Chesapeake
  • 1980: Second San Joaquin
  • Philadelphia - Pittsburgh Pennsylvanian
  • Portland - Eugene Willamette Valley
  • Chicago - East Peoria Prairie Marksman
  • Chicago - Indianapolis Hoosier
  • Kansas City - St. Louis Mules
  • Seventh San Diegan
Click to expand...
Brock Adams was FRA boss, not Amtrak, right JIS? Or is my memory the second thing to go? Or was he an "acting" Amtrak prez?
 
rrdude said:
Brock Adams was FRA boss, not Amtrak, right JIS? Or is my memory the second thing to go? Or was he an "acting" Amtrak prez?
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Brock Adams was the Secretary of the Department of Transportation under Jimmy Carter. The head of Amtrak in that era was Paul Reistrup (until 1978) and Alan Boyd (from 1978).
 
Remember the larger context. When Amtrak was created in 1971, it was widely expected to wither and die.

Amtrak was saved by its passengers, who continued to ride the trains despite the mess of things. So some politicians were still with the program to cut Amtrak to get it small enuff to drown in the bathtub. But other politicians responded to what they heard from train-riding voters. Thus began the stalemate lasting until today, that Amtrak is kept deprived and barely functional, pleasing the gummint-haters, but it is kept alive, pleasing the tens of millions who actually ride passenger trains.
 
PRR 60 said:
rrdude said:
Brock Adams was FRA boss, not Amtrak, right JIS? Or is my memory the second thing to go? Or was he an "acting" Amtrak prez?
Click to expand...
Brock Adams was the Secretary of the Department of Transportation under Jimmy Carter. The head of Amtrak in that era was Paul Reistrup (until 1978) and Alan Boyd (from 1978).
Click to expand...
Of course you are right. I made the necessary corrections in the original post. Thanks.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
jis said:
Carter I am sure had no personal opinion about any Amtrak train, and most likely did not have any opinion about the details of what Amtrak does, or even what Amtrak does at all. It was a budget decision that was made by the Congress and the Carter administration who were faced with a pretty grim economic situation. Been there and lived through that. It was the then Amtrak administration who decided what to cut and what not to cut.

The original plan presented by the FRA was much more draconian. It also included the Crescent, the SWC, the Pioneer, the San Joaquins, the Hiawathas and the Eagle. The proposal was to replace the SWC by the Desert Wind. The outcome was that the SWC stayed and the Desert Wind was added. The Pioneer was saved by Bob Packwood. The Eagle survivied due to some regional considerations since its removal would have removed all service from several states. Those were grim days. Brock Adams was the SecDoT boss then, so much of this was his doing. Alan Boyd was the Amtrak boss for the period when most damage was done. Much to the chagrin of many, even back then, nothing was cut in the Northeast, though the Champion did go bye bye, as did the National Limited, to be replaced by the Pennsylvanian, preserving its eastern end. And of course the famous Hilltopper which was a weird train to start with. But the Colonial, which was an anemic 3 car train to Newport News was not on any hit list.

Of course within two years of the 79 mayhem, the Cardinal was briefly cut, as were several other trains. Only the Cardinal got immediately restored. During the Carter administration the following trains were added to assuage various parties:

  • 1977: Seattle - Salt Lake City Pioneer
  • Fifth San Diegan
  • 1978: Sixth San Diegan
  • Washington-Philadelphia Chesapeake
  • 1980: Second San Joaquin
  • Philadelphia - Pittsburgh Pennsylvanian
  • Portland - Eugene Willamette Valley
  • Chicago - East Peoria Prairie Marksman
  • Chicago - Indianapolis Hoosier
  • Kansas City - St. Louis Mules
  • Seventh San Diegan
Edit: Corrected Brock Adam's title and added ref to Alan Boyd as Amtrak boss.
Click to expand...
San Diegans and San Joaquins additions were all CA funded, weren't they?
 
I don't remember which of them were system trains and which were 403b. Heck even the Lake Shore Limited initially was a 403b train, later converted into a system train! On A-Day there was no Lake Shore Limited!

BTW, apparently that is not a complete list either. It is missing some trains.
 
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