EB to CS No Longer Supported

Not to single anyone out here, but again I see people talking about changing the schedule to reflect reality. This doesn't work, is not at all easy to make it happen, and hasn't worked in the past.

First, the "reality" for the EB changes from day to day, and it is different for the eastbound & westbound. Forgetting for a moment the desire to try to maintain connections (which currently Amtrak has largely abandoned), it is probably not practical for scheduling to set two differing schedules. Even with the extra trainset, something that Amtrak cannot maintain year round, trains are still going out late due to late arrivals.

Second, changing any schedule for the EB involves 3 different RR's that all must agree to the new schedule. It is already near impossible to get one host to agree to a new schedule; much less get 3 to do so. And Amtrak still must worry about capacity at CUS, as well as conflicts in Portland & Seattle.

Finally, we know from history that changing the schedule doesn't help. Back in the early 2000's, Amtrak managed to get UP & CSX to change the schedules to reflect "reality"; or so they thought. Amtrak added 10 and 1/2 hours of padding into the Sunset Limited's schedule, 8 hours for UP and 2-1/2 for CSX. And most of the padding for CSX was simply to provide a cushion going westbound so as to not deliver the Sunset to UP out of it's slot.

It didn't help! The train still consistently late by at least 10 hours; and at times it was a day or two late. UP basically just gobbled up that extra time and still ran the Sunset late. When there is too much traffic, padding doesn't help. You can't leave a station early, and no matter what you will still encounter delays further down the track.

There are only two ways to fix this problem. One would be to take BNSF to court and enforce the contract with major penalties; penalties that would hit profits on freight movements hard. Two, BNSF goes on a crash program to double track the entire line.

Changing the schedule only ensures that the train will arrive hours later than it currently does and that it will still be late.

D.P. Roberts said:

Huge personal TV screens and movies at every seat, food that's now convection-cooked rather than reheated (sound familiar)?, wine pairings and fancy amenity kits... this isn't cruise stuff, this is modern aviation.

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This is cruise stuff. Have you looked at the prices on "business class" international flights? Businesses refuse to pay for these for their employees...

Nathanael said:

D.P. Roberts said:

Huge personal TV screens and movies at every seat, food that's now convection-cooked rather than reheated (sound familiar)?, wine pairings and fancy amenity kits... this isn't cruise stuff, this is modern aviation.

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This is cruise stuff. Have you looked at the prices on "business class" international flights? Businesses refuse to pay for these for their employees...

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Correction.... Some businesses refuse to pay for middle management and below to travel by Business. Above a certain level they still pay for it. So to claim airline BC is cruise stuff is just plain wrong. Of course in addition a lot of non business people pay for BC to get lie flat seats on leisure trips too, mainly to get lie flat accommodation, specially on 10+ hour flights too.


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jis said:

Correction.... Some businesses refuse to pay for middle management and below to travel by Business. Above a certain level they still pay for it. So to claim airline BC is cruise stuff is just plain wrong.

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That's just "giveaways to the executives" type stuff though -- those are the companies which pay for their CEOs to travel first class. Still cruise material.

I'll throw in that, at least from what I can see, the threat of legal action should only be used to try and get something material of BNSF beyond an "on time" Builder.

Nathanael said:

jis said:

Correction.... Some businesses refuse to pay for middle management and below to travel by Business. Above a certain level they still pay for it. So to claim airline BC is cruise stuff is just plain wrong.

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That's just "giveaways to the executives" type stuff though -- those are the companies which pay for their CEOs to travel first class. Still cruise material.

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All I can say is believe whatever you like but just repeating something does not make it so

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jis said:

Nathanael said:

jis said:

Correction.... Some businesses refuse to pay for middle management and below to travel by Business. Above a certain level they still pay for it. So to claim airline BC is cruise stuff is just plain wrong.

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That's just "giveaways to the executives" type stuff though -- those are the companies which pay for their CEOs to travel first class. Still cruise material.

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All I can say is believe whatever you like but just repeating something does not make it so

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

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I would also add that saying it's "cruise material" is demonstrably false. This is, as I said, quite literally modern air travel. The photos were taken from airline websites, NOT a cruise ship. One might claim that airlines themselves are providing benefits that used to be provided only on cruise ships, but that's an example of the change in passenger expectations. If Amtrak is trying to compete with airplanes, then looking at what airplanes are actually providing now - as opposed to 30 years ago - is necessary.

And yes, businesses do pay for these seats - again, this is demonstrably true, in that said seats exist and are being used daily. You'll also notice that most airlines (including the example I provided) don't call it "First Class" anymore, it's called "Business Premier". If you read the comments in Flyertalk and other forums, many people feel that lie-flat seats are part of the price of doing business if you want to arrive at your destination in a mentally functional state.

I really think Amtrak would be better off if they emulated the airlines more. Many years ago, they did so in a bad way by making the passenger cars look like airplanes on the outside (silver, streamlined, small windows, etc.). Nowadays, I think most people aren't really familiar with Amtrak's long-distance amenities, but are very familiar with what's available on an airplane.

Amtrak could use this to their advantage. For example, when refitting coach cars, they could use the actual seats (or order similar ones) that the airlines use in first/business class. Something like lie-flat seats would probably also do well. From what I've been able to find, Amtrak's normal seat pitch is about 44-52 inches - roughly equivalent to Business / Premium Economy on an airplane (as opposed to 30-32 in coach). First Class/Business Premier is normally around 80".

I think this would be an interesting experiment. Amtrak could remove roughly 30-40% of the seats in a typical coach car, and replace the existing seats with lie-flat beds typical of an airplane. I know there are millions of crash-test regulations for seats and such, but since an airline seat goes through similar testing, hopefully it wouldn't be too much of an issue. Then, charge maybe double what a normal coach seat costs (or more, if the market will bear it). You'd get an "international First/Business class experience" on a cross-country trip, but without the outrageous cost.

HSR isn't arriving any time soon, and a lot of people just don't want to sleep in a chair, but can't afford a roomette. I think some "middle ground" like this might work for a lot of people.

D.P. Roberts said:

I really think Amtrak would be better off if they emulated the airlines more. Many years ago, they did so in a bad way by making the passenger cars look like airplanes on the outside (silver, streamlined, small windows, etc.). Nowadays, I think most people aren't really familiar with Amtrak's long-distance amenities, but are very familiar with what's available on an airplane.

Amtrak could use this to their advantage. For example, when refitting coach cars, they could use the actual seats (or order similar ones) that the airlines use in first/business class. Something like lie-flat seats would probably also do well. From what I've been able to find, Amtrak's normal seat pitch is about 44-52 inches - roughly equivalent to Business / Premium Economy on an airplane (as opposed to 30-32 in coach). First Class/Business Premier is normally around 80".

I think this would be an interesting experiment. Amtrak could remove roughly 30-40% of the seats in a typical coach car, and replace the existing seats with lie-flat beds typical of an airplane. I know there are millions of crash-test regulations for seats and such, but since an airline seat goes through similar testing, hopefully it wouldn't be too much of an issue. Then, charge maybe double what a normal coach seat costs (or more, if the market will bear it). You'd get an "international First/Business class experience" on a cross-country trip, but without the outrageous cost.

HSR isn't arriving any time soon, and a lot of people just don't want to sleep in a chair, but can't afford a roomette. I think some "middle ground" like this might work for a lot of people.

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This I disagree with. The market for people flying international business class and the market for people riding long-distance trains in coach are two completely different markets.

The folks flying in those pod suites, if they ride LD trains at all, are going to be traveling in sleepers. I don't think that many folks are really that familiar with the modern airline offerings for international business class (domestic first class is a completely different animal, and is akin to Acela first class or, seating-wise, club-dinettes in business class). Those that are, as I said, would probably already be riding sleepers on a train.

Amtrak is facing a severe capacity limitation, and the amount of space these airline seats take up isn't going to help. As an example, I recently flew an Air Canada 777-200LR in their Executive First cabin (really good price on a YVR-YYZ segment). The typical 777 seats. 9 or 10 across, but the EF cabin seats four across, so you immediately lose over 50% capacity just on seat width. Their seat pitch is listed as 70 inches which, even compared to a Superliner coach, is nearly 50% more space (and an Amfleet II gives even less space). So, the upper deck of a Superliner would go from 62 seats to 31 just on seat width alone (I'll assume the aisle width won't be an issue). Reduce another 30% for increased seat pitch, and you're down to barely over 20 seats.

You might as well just convert it into a sleeper configuration, which at least gives you privacy while you sleep, plus gives the option of a second person in the room if the passengers want to reduce per-person costs. The other thing about the Air Canada (and many other airlines) seats is they angle to fit a bit more into the same space. This makes looking out the window a bit harder, which is one of the selling points of LD rail travel.

as far as the connection to cs from the eb being abandoned, we are going spk-pdx connecting to the cs tonight. we will be on a bus spk-pdx i am told. i was also told that even though our connection was guaranteed when we made our reservation that it no longer is. i assumed amtrak would honor the guarantee for existing reservations but apparently not(meaning they would not pay for a hotel in pdx if the connection was missed)

I resolved my EB "problem" by simply changing my booking to a day earlier. We will be on vacation and originally had planned to pick up a rental car in East Glacier after a 8:16 PM scheduled arrival and drive to Many Glacier that night. I just moved my August departure up a day and booked a room at the Glacier Park Lodge which is right across the street from the Depot. It is nice to have ability to warp the space time continuum to meet my own pleasures. Dr. Who would be proud of me.

yarrow said:

as far as the connection to cs from the eb being abandoned, we are going spk-pdx connecting to the cs tonight. we will be on a bus spk-pdx i am told. i was also told that even though our connection was guaranteed when we made our reservation that it no longer is. i assumed amtrak would honor the guarantee for existing reservations but apparently not(meaning they would not pay for a hotel in pdx if the connection was missed)

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I was under the (mistaken) impression that because the EB to CS same-day connection has been disallowed that I would be forced to change my previously booked AGR trip in March to something that meets the new policy (overnight in PDX at my own expense). The woman from Amtrak that called me today assured me that my current itenerary and ticket would remain valid but since there is no longer a guaranteed connection it's really just a gamble on my part. She tells me that if I let it ride Amtrak would still do their best to accomodate me on the next day's CS but obviously there is no guarantee that a roomette would be available then. I think that I will be calling AGR to switch to the SWC-CS route to bring me back home from Chicago.

Is this still on effect?

fairviewroad said:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amtrak-guest-rewards/1541911-agr-redemption-travel-connecting-empire-builder.html

AGR redemption travel connecting from the Empire Builder
As you may be aware, some previously guaranteed connections from the Empire Builder were suspended/removed by Amtrak this week due to excessive delays. We have decided to allow an overnight(s) at the customer's expense, as part of the same redemption, at PDX or CHI to catch the next run of these trains that were previously guaranteed connections from the Builder. This exception would remain in effect until/unless the guaranteed connections are restored or modified. The contact center leadership is aware of the decision and should be allowing this exception as of yesterday. If the individual agent is unaware of the exception, please ask him/her to consult with a lead agent or supervisor who would have the information available.

Examples:
8/28 to 30 (at CHI) - can overnight once to next run of 30
8/28 to 50 (at CHI) - can overnight until next run of 50
8/28 to 59 (at CHI) - can overnight once to next run of 59
8/28 to 48/448 - same-day connection remains; no overnight permitted
27 to 11 (at PDX) - can overnight once to next run of 11


Anthony Rizos
Program Manager
Amtrak Guest Rewards

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Yes.

Cristobal said:

yarrow said:

as far as the connection to cs from the eb being abandoned, we are going spk-pdx connecting to the cs tonight. we will be on a bus spk-pdx i am told. i was also told that even though our connection was guaranteed when we made our reservation that it no longer is. i assumed amtrak would honor the guarantee for existing reservations but apparently not(meaning they would not pay for a hotel in pdx if the connection was missed)

Click to expand...

I was under the (mistaken) impression that because the EB to CS same-day connection has been disallowed that I would be forced to change my previously booked AGR trip in March to something that meets the new policy (overnight in PDX at my own expense). The woman from Amtrak that called me today assured me that my current itenerary and ticket would remain valid but since there is no longer a guaranteed connection it's really just a gamble on my part. She tells me that if I let it ride Amtrak would still do their best to accomodate me on the next day's CS but obviously there is no guarantee that a roomette would be available then. I think that I will be calling AGR to switch to the SWC-CS route to bring me back home from Chicago.

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Wise Choice!

Cristobal said:

I was under the (mistaken) impression that because the EB to CS same-day connection has been disallowed that I would be forced to change my previously booked AGR trip in March to something that meets the new policy (overnight in PDX at my own expense). The woman from Amtrak that called me today assured me that my current itenerary and ticket would remain valid but since there is no longer a guaranteed connection it's really just a gamble on my part.

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I think that you are correct in that existing ticketholders are not being forced to make any changes, but the Amtrak / Arrow system has changed & will not allow those connections going forward. For example, if you try to book a trip that would require an EB/CS connection (I tried Whitefish and Spokane to Emeryville or LAX), it says that no such trains exist ("The service you requested is not available because there is no same day train connection. Please try a different route or different dates. [Error ID: 205A]").

That makes sense - they're honoring the tickets that people already have in their hands, but they won't let people make new ones. From a customer service perspective, I do think that they're handling this pretty well.

A few years ago, when the northbound CS was running late enough that the connection to the EB in Portland, Amtrak provided a bus from Klamath Falls to Pasco.

Why cant they run a bus from Pasco to Chemult or Kalmath Falls? If there are not many transfers they could even get them to Bend for the bus to Chemult.

I'm considering booking a trip from LAX - WTI (Waterloo, Indiana) going CS-EB-LSL (since the CL is no longer supported). If, at some point (after I book the ticket) the LSL also stops being a guaranteed connection (which seems very possible), what is Amtrak's most likely response going to be? Will they reroute me on the SWC (as they appear to have done with the OP), or just warn me that it's no longer guaranteed (as they did in Cristobal's case in post #61 above)?

Tumbleweed said:

Is this still on effect?

fairviewroad said:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amtrak-guest-rewards/1541911-agr-redemption-travel-connecting-empire-builder.html

AGR redemption travel connecting from the Empire BuilderAs you may be aware, some previously guaranteed connections from the Empire Builder were suspended/removed by Amtrak this week due to excessive delays. We have decided to allow an overnight(s) at the customer's expense, as part of the same redemption, at PDX or CHI to catch the next run of these trains that were previously guaranteed connections from the Builder. This exception would remain in effect until/unless the guaranteed connections are restored or modified. The contact center leadership is aware of the decision and should be allowing this exception as of yesterday. If the individual agent is unaware of the exception, please ask him/her to consult with a lead agent or supervisor who would have the information available.

Examples:

8/28 to 30 (at CHI) - can overnight once to next run of 30

8/28 to 50 (at CHI) - can overnight until next run of 50

8/28 to 59 (at CHI) - can overnight once to next run of 59

8/28 to 48/448 - same-day connection remains; no overnight permitted

27 to 11 (at PDX) - can overnight once to next run of 11

Anthony Rizos

Program Manager

Amtrak Guest Rewards

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Click to expand...

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That might actually be an improvement. I have friends I can stay with in Chicago and Portland, and this way I can book an overnight "just in case" without burning through more points...

I spoke with an agent tonight about the PDX connection between the EB & CS, and it sounds like this is indeed a very temporary exception. Rather than eventually restoring the guaranteed connection (or allowing the overnight indefinitely), he said that in the very near future it sounds like Amtrak is going to sever this connection altogether. This makes sense, as the congestion on the EB's route is not likely to get better any time soon.

So, if you've been thinking about taking a trip from the EB to the CS, now's the time...

I just received an email from Amtrak on my inquiry about the former EB to CONO connection and they said the same thing, there will no longer be any connection for that train with the EB-bummer.

D.P. Roberts said:

I spoke with an agent tonight about the PDX connection between the EB & CS, and it sounds like this is indeed a very temporary exception. Rather than eventually restoring the guaranteed connection (or allowing the overnight indefinitely), he said that in the very near future it sounds like Amtrak is going to sever this connection altogether. This makes sense, as the congestion on the EB's route is not likely to get better any time soon.

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Amtrak has already, at least for now, suspended the connection between the EB and the CS at PDX. One must book an overnight stay at present no matter what.

AGR however has decided to allow one to book that connection without a points penalty, provided that the member books & pays for their hotel for the overnight. And that comes direct from AGR headquarters, the people who set the policies; unlike a phone agent who is only supposed to follow the policies set.

montana mike said:

I just received an email from Amtrak on my inquiry about the former EB to CONO connection and they said the same thing, there will no longer be any connection for that train with the EB-bummer.

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Yes, that connection was already official severed a few weeks ago. But that is for paid reservations.

We were posting at the same time; but again I'll repeat that AGR is making an exception and is now allowing people to overnight on their own dime to make the now severed paid connections at the same points level that originally existed. And all connections from the EB to other trains, save the Lake Shore, have been severed for continuous paid connections. One can of course still book an overnight even on a paid reservation using the multi-city choice. However, to my knowledge that will still result in a higher fare than one used to get with a through fare. I'm not aware of any changes to remove that "penalty" for paid reservations.

And good on AGR for making that exception.

Maybe when they see that the world doesn't end, they'll allow paid overnights more locations.

RyanS said:

And good on AGR for making that exception. Maybe when they see that the world doesn't end, they'll allow paid overnights more locations.

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Agreed. Good for us and good for them, but probably only after the next devaluation, if ever. Just being realistic based on the last decade of collecting monkey points.

AlanB said:

D.P. Roberts said:

I spoke with an agent tonight about the PDX connection between the EB & CS, and it sounds like this is indeed a very temporary exception. Rather than eventually restoring the guaranteed connection (or allowing the overnight indefinitely), he said that in the very near future it sounds like Amtrak is going to sever this connection altogether. This makes sense, as the congestion on the EB's route is not likely to get better any time soon.

Click to expand...

Amtrak has already, at least for now, suspended the connection between the EB and the CS at PDX. One must book an overnight stay at present no matter what.

AGR however has decided to allow one to book that connection without a points penalty, provided that the member books & pays for their hotel for the overnight. And that comes direct from AGR headquarters, the people who set the policies; unlike a phone agent who is only supposed to follow the policies set.

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I didn't word that very clearly - as you said, AGR is currently allowing people to book that connection without a points penalty. I'm just saying that the agent told me that this exception might only be in place for a limited time. I'm glad they're allowing it now, but I just think people ought to know that this AGR exception might only be in place for a short while - even the official announcement doesn't say how long AGR will be willing to do this.

Of course, this is coming from an agent rather than directly from AGR HQ. So, I'd say it's certainly more rumor than fact.But I still think that if you have any interest in taking advantage of this exception, it might be wise to do so sooner rather than later.