Bustitution on California Zephyr in June!!!

Anderson said:

1) Which NEC HSR work is this? The upgrades between Philly and NYC?

Click to expand...

Yes. They will need to get possession to install all those cross bars between poles for the new electrification, among other things.

Given the failure rate of so many construction projects to meet completion deadlines, how rigid should we regard UP’s June 23 date. Our question stems from a decidedly vested interest: we’re on the CZ from SAC June 27.

I wouldn't worry about it - they want to get the line open just as much as anyone else.

SubwayNut said:

The thing I'm confused by is why Amtrak is busing passengers all the way to Emeryville and isn't at least giving people the scheduled option (it would increase travel times) of switching back to a Capital Corridor train for the trip between the Bay Area and Sacramento.
It is nice to see Amtrak using buses, but remember that Amtrak California already runs throughway bus routes all the way to Reno anyway from Sacramento.

Click to expand...

Using the "one seat ride" philosophy putting people on Capitol Corridor, then on a bus, then on the CZ turns it into a three seat ride. At least this way you keep it to a minimum of two seats. Additionally, how do you handle checked bags since there is no checked bag service on Capitol Corridor?

The fact that Amtrak is advertising the disruption and showing that you'll be on a bus for the CZ and Silver Service disruptions is a huge improvement over the previous methodology of just dropping it on people when they show up. To my knowledge with the Florida track work the only train that has been completely annulled is Auto Train, and that's only because there isn't another place north of the track work where they can logically terminate the train.

HookC said:

Given the failure rate of so many construction projects to meet completion deadlines, how rigid should we regard UP’s June 23 date. Our question stems from a decidedly vested interest: we’re on the CZ from SAC June 27.

Click to expand...

This is a maintenance type project, not a major construction project. Not likely to have unexpected delays because there should be no surprises in the work that needs to be done. As stated, The UP managers will be motivated to complete the work on schedule.

Thanks for the reassurance, Ryan & affig—two old malcontents fuming in their bus seats for five hours over lost sleeper accommodations is not a pretty sight. Appreciate your replies.

henryj said:

Did Amtrak try for something different or do they just accept whatever they are told. Really what this says is LD trains are not a critical link in the transportation network. No one, Amtrak nor the host railroad, consider them essential or important. Hence the cancellations and bustitutions that we get all the time. This situation contrasts with the 'old days' when the railroads ran their own passenger trains and considered them important and classified them as 'first class' trains and rarely delayed them for anything, least of all track maintenance....

Click to expand...

It is not the "old days" anymore. Shutting down the line does not say that this not a critical link in the transportation network. It says that shutting the route segment down for a few days is the faster and cheaper way to do the maintenance.
This is not unique to Amtrak. The DC Metro is undergoing a multi-year repair and upgrade progran that results in segments of lines and stations closed on weekends. This weekend, segments of the Orange and Green lines will be closed with bustitutions across the gap and to the closed stations. The NYC subway system has an aggressive FasTrack program which shuts down lines overnight and on weekends. In Chicago, a major segment of one of the L lines is about to be closed for 5 months for major track replacement and repair.

Are these shut the line down repair projects saying that the DC Metro, NYC subway, Chicago L are not vital transportation link? I don't think so. The shut downs have been adopted because it is expensive and slow to do the track work spread over months of ~4 hour window in the middle of the night with much of the time spent getting started and then shutting down the repair work to have the system running for Am start of service. Instead, by shutting the line down for the weekend, a day, or a longer period, the crews get a lot done in one long blocked out work window. Inconveniences people, oh yes, but the work gets done more quickly and cuts costs, which in the post-2008 crash period became the major consideration. This approach is becoming more common in road and bridge repair projects. Close the bridge for the weekend or 1/2 the bridge lanes for the weekend rather than do the repair work 1 lane at a time in the middle of the night.

Ryan said:

henryj said:

You will never see service annulled or bustituted on the NEC for track maintenance.

Click to expand...

Yes you will. From this very thread:

jis said:

Specially considering that Amtrak takes similar hits on its own tracks too.

For considerable additional cost things can be done so that tracks remain open, but the work takes much much longer and costs much more. It is a simple matter of tradeoff on cost and benefit.

The Deputy Chief Engineer of the NEC HSR Project told me that when things really get rolling on HSR work, they will on occasions shut down the NEC for many hours overnight, possibly affecting trains like 66/67. He said that they could avoid this but they would not be able to meet the 2017 deadline and the project would land up costing much much more. That is the basis of the conjecture I present above.

Click to expand...

Also, Texan Eagle, fix your quotes. I didn't say what you're attributing to me.

Click to expand...

As I said before, Amtrak already annulled service between Boston and New York when they replaced the Thames River Bridge. How soon we forget!

jis said:

As I said before, Amtrak already annulled service between Boston and New York when they replaced the Thames River Bridge. How soon we forget!

Click to expand...

Remind me again which bridge Union Pacific is replacing? I seem to have forgotten.

HookC said:

Thanks for the reassurance, Ryan & affig—two old malcontents fuming in their bus seats for five hours over lost sleeper accommodations is not a pretty sight. Appreciate your replies.

Click to expand...

If you lose sleeper accommodations for part of your trip due to bustitution, you can get a refund voucher by calling customer service... at least it worked for me not too long ago.

Maine Rider said:

If you lose sleeper accommodations for part of your trip due to bustitution, you can get a refund voucher by calling customer service.

Click to expand...

I know what a refund is.

I know what a voucher is.

What on earth is a "refund voucher?" :wacko:

I wonder how long it would take if the Feather River detour were used.

One point to consider is this: suppose Amtrak were given slots on the Feather River route. If it took too long, it might require a seventh or eighth trainset... which Amtrak is unlikely to be able to scrape up, although it did scrape up a sixth set for the Empire Builder not so long ago. At some point detouring becomes more work than it's worth.

One of the reasons that bustitutions did not happen in the "good old days" was that there were *always* detour routes, and they were usually maintained to the same speeds as the mainline, and they were never *all* overcrowded. If they were all crowded, some entrepeneur would build yet another railroad! And of course, equipment shortages were unheard of.

The removal of redundancy has made it much harder to avoid busing.

Nathanael said:

I wonder how long it would take if the Feather River detour were used.

Click to expand...

The Feather River route took about 9 hours and it bypasses Reno. Current time on Amtrak to Reno is about 7 hours over Donner.

Nathanael said:

I wonder how long it would take if the Feather River detour were used. One point to consider is this: suppose Amtrak were given slots on the Feather River route. If it took too long, it might require a seventh or eighth trainset... which Amtrak is unlikely to be able to scrape up, although it did scrape up a sixth set for the Empire Builder not so long ago. At some point detouring becomes more work than it's worth. One of the reasons that bustitutions did not happen in the "good old days" was that there were *always* detour routes, and they were usually maintained to the same speeds as the mainline, and they were never *all* overcrowded. If they were all crowded, some entrepeneur would build yet another railroad! And of course, equipment shortages were unheard of. The removal of redundancy has made it much harder to avoid busing.

Click to expand...

Good points all around.

I believe the Feather River Route is a fully maintained mainline and not some rickety old re-purposed subdivision. If I recall correctly the current Zephyr route previously had double tracking which has since been abandoned in some areas. Over the last forty years we've seen one questionable merger after another result in route after route being abandoned or left to rot just so we could turn it into some sort of desolate and deserted walking path. If we were smarter about this we might have chosen to save those routes in a way that would have allowed them to carry passengers and freight again in the future, either as part of a toll rail project or as part of a new competitor's route. Right now the vast majority of damage to our roads is done not by cars or light trucks but by commercial rigs. Unfortunately the cost of all that damage is not passed on to the segment of the market that's doing most of the actual harm. If we made the folks who create most of the actual damage to our road pay for most of the repairs the cost of running yet another careless and clueless commercial trucking company would skyrocket. Normally that would be a bad thing, but if we still had most of our old track miles we might be able to keep shipping costs down while drastically increasing the number of years between major road maintenance and road expansion projects.

henryj said:

You will never see service annulled or bustituted on the NEC for track maintenance.

Click to expand...

Henry,

I'm sorry, but this is utter nonsense. It was widely reported on here and many other sites about the annulments, with NO bus service on many occasions, for the CT bridge replacement projects over the last few years. Yes, I'll grant that it usually happened on weekends, so the pain was minimal compared to a weekday.

But to say that it "never happens on the NEC" is 100% false! Clearly you missed those posts & topics.

DET63 said:

Texan Eagle said:

henryj said:

Ryan said:

They don't tell us what went on with Amtrak and UP. Did Amtrak try for something different or do they just accept whatever they are told. Really what this says is LD trains are not a critical link in the transportation network. No one, Amtrak nor the host railroad, consider them essential or important. Hence the cancellations and bustitutions that we get all the time.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

In fact, quite the contrary. Amtrak acknowledges the LD trains are an important link in its network and that is why they have arranged alternate means to get passengers to their destinations even when the train will have to be cancelled, and even duly announcing it a month in advance. If Amtrak did not care about the LD trains, they could have just decided to annul CZ at Reno and tell the passengers to suck it up and find their own transportation. But they did not do that, instead they are arranging a way to keep the vital critical link in the transportation network up and running.

Click to expand...

My guess would be that the month's advance notice was a result of waiting for UP to announce the exact dates it would be doing its work.

Click to expand...

I don't know if it's UP or Amtrak that waited so long.

Several years ago UP announced track work for the Denver to Salt Lake section about 2 or 3 months in advance. They ended up moving back the dates at least 2 or 3 times from the original May dates to July. So it could be that UP simply learned not to announce until closer, or it could be that Amtrak held back until it appeared that UP could actually meet their schedule.

Devil's Advocate said:

jis said:

As I said before, Amtrak already annulled service between Boston and New York when they replaced the Thames River Bridge. How soon we forget!

Click to expand...

Remind me again which bridge Union Pacific is replacing? I seem to have forgotten.

Click to expand...

UP is doing track work. When Amtrak annulled service, it too was doing track work. Yes, it was track work to accommodate and tie in the new bridge. Amtrak could have done things in such a way that they kept one track open on the old bridge while they cut in one track on the new bridge and maintained service. Instead, like UP, they decided it was best to simply stop all service to get the job done faster and more safely.

But track work is track work. Amtrak annulled service to do track work. UP is forcing Amtrak to annul service to do track work. The bridge has nothing to do with things at all, it was only a minor player in the game.

This is why I am so hesitant to reserve a trip on the CZ. It would be quite expensive, and I don't want to spend the moola and wind up with a BUS trip instead of a well planned scenic rail trip in a sleeper.

For those already reserved on these dates, can they get a full refund without penalty? Not that that helps with nonrefundable air tickets, etc.

I understand that maintenance has to be done, but for the passenger a bustitution is a total bummer.

Sorry pressed wrong key.

Last May I took CZ SAC to DEN and back. 2 weeks before trip AMTRAK e-mailed notice of delay & reroute. Was able to reschedule for a week later and even got the low bucket for the roomette. Actually saved money. This was not June so traffic wasn't as heavy.