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So this brilliant guy comes in fresh off the plane and immediately knows how to solve all our problems, and we are supposed to be impressed? NOPE.

It seems that everyone from any European country knows how things are to be run anywhere and everywhere. I have seen way too much of htis mindset over the last 20 years. Doesn't mean that they donb't have some good ideas, and that there are not things we can learn, but before getting too much in an uproar about what they think about anything and everything, those of us European ancestry should be asking ourselves why our ancestors left the place. Given the dangers and difficulties of the leap into the unknown, those moves were not mailed lightly.
Bit of a tiny quantum leap to compare the Pilgrim Fathers with some UK journalist stating his opinion of Amtraks rather cumbersome methods of operation....

Was at Washington DC a few years ago, waiting to board a train to NewYork. Busy train, yet only ten minutes before departure time, one man starts boarding the train and inspecting every ticket thoroughly. By the time all those elligible for the rather confused 'preboarding' had made their way to the front of the crowd and everyone else had filtered through the one man border point, the train left 15 minutes late. Good show, not. Poor operating practice, indeed.

Seattle waiting for the EB, call made that boarding was due to start, everyone stands up and gets in line, then stands another ten minutes before the doors to the platform is opened.

Amtrak does make a drama out of what should be a simple operation, yet on some routes you just turn up and get on without the fuss and messing about.

Yeah, there's maybe a dozen reasons why it's like that, but to the outsider it just seems unnecessary, even someone with a perceived anti European agenda can see that?

Granted there are some grumpy staff, but on the flip side, some of the most pleasant and helpful staff I have ever met on a train have been Amtrak staff.

All experience is valid.
 
So this brilliant guy comes in fresh off the plane and immediately knows how to solve all our problems, and we are supposed to be impressed? NOPE.

It seems that everyone from any European country knows how things are to be run anywhere and everywhere. I have seen way too much of htis mindset over the last 20 years. Doesn't mean that they donb't have some good ideas, and that there are not things we can learn, but before getting too much in an uproar about what they think about anything and everything, those of us European ancestry should be asking ourselves why our ancestors left the place. Given the dangers and difficulties of the leap into the unknown, those moves were not mailed lightly.
Bit of a tiny quantum leap to compare the Pilgrim Fathers with some UK journalist stating his opinion of Amtraks rather cumbersome methods of operation....

Was at Washington DC a few years ago, waiting to board a train to NewYork. Busy train, yet only ten minutes before departure time, one man starts boarding the train and inspecting every ticket thoroughly. By the time all those elligible for the rather confused 'preboarding' had made their way to the front of the crowd and everyone else had filtered through the one man border point, the train left 15 minutes late. Good show, not. Poor operating practice, indeed.

Seattle waiting for the EB, call made that boarding was due to start, everyone stands up and gets in line, then stands another ten minutes before the doors to the platform is opened.

Amtrak does make a drama out of what should be a simple operation, yet on some routes you just turn up and get on without the fuss and messing about.

Yeah, there's maybe a dozen reasons why it's like that, but to the outsider it just seems unnecessary, even someone with a perceived anti European agenda can see that?

Granted there are some grumpy staff, but on the flip side, some of the most pleasant and helpful staff I have ever met on a train have been Amtrak staff.

All experience is valid.
I didn't say that we don't do dumb things. We do and plenty of them. The Northeast corridor must have a patent on some of them. I worked there for a few months about 15 years ago and remember some of the silliness that you describe, as I made several trips NY to DC and NY to Philly in that period. Some of these rather pointless checks are probably left over from many years in the past. The extremely short period between posting of which track and departure time in New York Penn Station seemed to be primarily a recipe for either trains leaving late or people being left behind.
 
So this brilliant guy comes in fresh off the plane and immediately knows how to solve all our problems, and we are supposed to be impressed? NOPE.

It seems that everyone from any European country knows how things are to be run anywhere and everywhere. I have seen way too much of htis mindset over the last 20 years. Doesn't mean that they donb't have some good ideas, and that there are not things we can learn, but before getting too much in an uproar about what they think about anything and everything, those of us European ancestry should be asking ourselves why our ancestors left the place. Given the dangers and difficulties of the leap into the unknown, those moves were not mailed lightly.
Bit of a tiny quantum leap to compare the Pilgrim Fathers with some UK journalist stating his opinion of Amtraks rather cumbersome methods of operation....

Was at Washington DC a few years ago, waiting to board a train to NewYork. Busy train, yet only ten minutes before departure time, one man starts boarding the train and inspecting every ticket thoroughly. By the time all those elligible for the rather confused 'preboarding' had made their way to the front of the crowd and everyone else had filtered through the one man border point, the train left 15 minutes late. Good show, not. Poor operating practice, indeed.

Seattle waiting for the EB, call made that boarding was due to start, everyone stands up and gets in line, then stands another ten minutes before the doors to the platform is opened.

Amtrak does make a drama out of what should be a simple operation, yet on some routes you just turn up and get on without the fuss and messing about.

Yeah, there's maybe a dozen reasons why it's like that, but to the outsider it just seems unnecessary, even someone with a perceived anti European agenda can see that?

Granted there are some grumpy staff, but on the flip side, some of the most pleasant and helpful staff I have ever met on a train have been Amtrak staff.

All experience is valid.
I didn't say that we don't do dumb things. We do and plenty of them. The Northeast corridor must have a patent on some of them. I worked there for a few months about 15 years ago and remember some of the silliness that you describe, as I made several trips NY to DC and NY to Philly in that period. Some of these rather pointless checks are probably left over from many years in the past. The extremely short period between posting of which track and departure time in New York Penn Station seemed to be primarily a recipe for either trains leaving late or people being left behind.
And yet it is very rare that a train ever leaves NYP late because the boarding process wasn't finished in time. The train may leave late for a myriad of other reasons, but almost never in my experience which is considerable, because boarding wasn't completed. And I don't see many complaints from people being left behind either. If you got left behind, then you were late getting to the station.
 
I had a harder time understanding NYP's convoluted hurry-up-and-wait boarding process as a lifetime American speaking the native tongue than I did in busy Bayern stations not knowing a lick of German. To me that says there is much to be improved in New York. I guess if you know the system and know how to work around it then it's fine. But that doesn't explain the proud indifference expressed toward the experiences of anyone who's not an insider or expert. Maybe if it were too easy for tourists it wouldn't be "cool" enough for use by average New Yorkers.
 
I had a harder time understanding NYP's convoluted hurry-up-and-wait boarding process as a lifetime American speaking the native tongue than I did in busy Bayern stations not knowing a lick of German. To me that says there is much to be improved in New York. I guess if you know the system and know how to work around it then it's fine. But that doesn't explain the proud indifference expressed toward the experiences of anyone who's not an insider or expert. Maybe if it were too easy for tourists it wouldn't be "cool" enough for use by average New Yorkers.
Likewise the New York Subway. They seem to like entrances poorly marked, and that is only the beginning. I understand that it is better now, but at that time the paving on the platform surfaces was primarily chewing gum.
 
I had a harder time understanding NYP's convoluted hurry-up-and-wait boarding process as a lifetime American speaking the native tongue than I did in busy Bayern stations not knowing a lick of German. To me that says there is much to be improved in New York. I guess if you know the system and know how to work around it then it's fine. But that doesn't explain the proud indifference expressed toward the experiences of anyone who's not an insider or expert. Maybe if it were too easy for tourists it wouldn't be "cool" enough for use by average New Yorkers.
Likewise the New York Subway. They seem to like entrances poorly marked, and that is only the beginning. I understand that it is better now, but at that time the paving on the platform surfaces was primarily chewing gum.
It's much improved George, which is not to say that further improvements couldn't be made, just that things are better than they were in all regards. Yes, there are those with a critical eye that wouldn't be satisfied with butler service and nice cushy seating. But again, things are better than they were years ago.
 
I had a harder time understanding NYP's convoluted hurry-up-and-wait boarding process as a lifetime American speaking the native tongue than I did in busy Bayern stations not knowing a lick of German. To me that says there is much to be improved in New York. I guess if you know the system and know how to work around it then it's fine. But that doesn't explain the proud indifference expressed toward the experiences of anyone who's not an insider or expert. Maybe if it were too easy for tourists it wouldn't be "cool" enough for use by average New Yorkers.
I find the boarding process at NYP, especially for NJT and LIRR trains, amusing at best, plain stupid at worst. Ever seen the chaos that is played out every evening during peak hours? A huge crowd of thousand-odd people gather in the concourse, staring at the big display in suspense, not knowing where their train is going to arrive, and then ten minutes, sometimes even less, before departure time, the platform number is announced, doors open and a mad rush of crowd hurtles down the stairs onto the platform and into the train. Agreed there are too many platforms and too many trains and it is not always possible to pre-assign platforms to all trains, but surely there can be some streamlining done, and what's the big deal about holding back passengers up in the concourse.. why can't the passengers be allowed to go down to the platforms whenever they wish to? One may argue that why would you want to go down to the platform when you don't know which platform your train will arrive at. Well, leave that upto the passengers. There might be many who wouldn't mind walking down to the platform and gamble it out.. as in, whichever train comes at that platform, board that one. For commuter lines with frequent services like NJT out of NYP, it wouldn't be a bad gamble. For example, if I want to go from NYP to Secaucus Junction, I have the option to take train departing at 6:37, 6:43, 6:47, 6:52, 6:56, 7:02 pm and so on, one (or more) of these trains would surely arrive at one of the two platforms between which I am standing.

On the Amtrak trains, another pet peeve of mine is seeing the train's departure getting delayed because the conductors are checking every passenger's tickets at the platform and letting them in taking their own sweet time, and waiting until everyone is in, checking nobody is left behind, and only then letting the train depart. I don't know what is the system in Europe, but in a way I like the system in India- the train arrives at its scheduled time, stops at the platform, doors are open, and everyone is on their own.. if you can get in, do so, and when it's departure time, the engineer blows one long horn warning the passengers its time to leave, and starts the train at the scheduled time. There is no conductor on the platform "welcoming" every single passenger or checking if everyone has boarded. It'd the passenger's duty to make sure he/she has boarded by the departure time. You get in on your own, your seat numbers are already printed on your ticket, find your seats, settle in, and then a Ticket Checker (conductor) comes by to check your tickets. If you have the right ticket, cool. If not, you pay a fine. It may sound like an anarchy at the platform, but at least it lets the trains stick to schedules. (Ok, most trains in India hardly stick to their schedule up to the minute due to a variety of reasons but that's a different matter!)
 
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I had a harder time understanding NYP's convoluted hurry-up-and-wait boarding process as a lifetime American speaking the native tongue than I did in busy Bayern stations not knowing a lick of German. To me that says there is much to be improved in New York. I guess if you know the system and know how to work around it then it's fine. But that doesn't explain the proud indifference expressed toward the experiences of anyone who's not an insider or expert. Maybe if it were too easy for tourists it wouldn't be "cool" enough for use by average New Yorkers.
Likewise the New York Subway. They seem to like entrances poorly marked, and that is only the beginning. I understand that it is better now, but at that time the paving on the platform surfaces was primarily chewing gum.
It's much improved George, which is not to say that further improvements couldn't be made, just that things are better than they were in all regards. Yes, there are those with a critical eye that wouldn't be satisfied with butler service and nice cushy seating. But again, things are better than they were years ago.
Are you referring to NYP or MTA? I never had much of a problem with the MTA. What's funny about the butler comment is that New York City seems to do a great job of catering to the hyper-sensitive upper crust and the perpetually indifferent, while doing a surprisingly poor job of addressing the needs of the moderate middle that doesn't expect to be pampered but still appreciates intelligent design matched with an efficient workflow and a bit of sunlight now and again. I don't know much about the history of the various turf wars that resulted in today's NYP operation just like I don't know anything about the various disputes that existed in Munich or Tokyo prior to my visits there. All I know is that I found their systems so much simpler and easier to navigate, even though I was a distant foreigner with no connection to any of it. Maybe I'm just a random anomaly, but to my eye NYP seems to work in spite of its design rather than because of it. Maybe some day it will be raised and returned to its former glory, because the pictures of its early years are very impressive in my view.
 
I had a harder time understanding NYP's convoluted hurry-up-and-wait boarding process as a lifetime American speaking the native tongue than I did in busy Bayern stations not knowing a lick of German. To me that says there is much to be improved in New York. I guess if you know the system and know how to work around it then it's fine. But that doesn't explain the proud indifference expressed toward the experiences of anyone who's not an insider or expert. Maybe if it were too easy for tourists it wouldn't be "cool" enough for use by average New Yorkers.
I find the boarding process at NYP, especially for NJT and LIRR trains, amusing at best, plain stupid at worst. Ever seen the chaos that is played out every evening during peak hours? A huge crowd of thousand-odd people gather in the concourse, staring at the big display in suspense, not knowing where their train is going to arrive, and then ten minutes, sometimes even less, before departure time, the platform number is announced, doors open and a mad rush of crowd hurtles down the stairs onto the platform and into the train. Agreed there are too many platforms and too many trains and it is not always possible to pre-assign platforms to all trains, but surely there can be some streamlining done, and what's the big deal about holding back passengers up in the concourse.. why can't the passengers be allowed to go down to the platforms whenever they wish to? One may argue that why would you want to go down to the platform when you don't know which platform your train will arrive at. Well, leave that upto the passengers. There might be many who wouldn't mind walking down to the platform and gamble it out.. as in, whichever train comes at that platform, board that one. For commuter lines with frequent services like NJT out of NYP, it wouldn't be a bad gamble. For example, if I want to go from NYP to Secaucus Junction, I have the option to take train departing at 6:37, 6:43, 6:47, 6:52, 6:56, 7:02 pm and so on, one (or more) of these trains would surely arrive at one of the two platforms between which I am standing.
It sounds real simple to say "plan where every train is going to go ahead of time." And believe it or not, they actually do that. All the switching at Penn is computer controlled and programed in advance. The problem is that reality intrudes in the form of a brake problem, or a medical emergency, or a late train. And then the plan goes right into the dumper and track assignments get changed.

So now if you have people down there, they're trying to get back up and down to a new platform while still others are now trying to get down to the platform those early birds want to get off of.

I know NYP very well, pretty much every nook & cranny. I almost never use a red cap because of that reason. In the last 10 years, I've probably used a red cap maybe 3 or 4 times. On one of those occasions and it wasn't even really my redcap, I was traveling with Chris D (diesteldorf) who had asked for the redcap. Redcaps are told where a train is going to platform about 20 minutes before departure.

So we trouped down to the plat with our redcap and seconds after reaching the platform and about 2 minutes before the train actually pulled into the station, the redcap got told that the track was being changed and we all had to troup back up to the station level and back down to a new platform.

This is why they don't put up the tracks sooner at NYP!

On the Amtrak trains, another pet peeve of mine is seeing the train's departure getting delayed because the conductors are checking every passenger's tickets at the platform and letting them in taking their own sweet time, and waiting until everyone is in, checking nobody is left behind, and only then letting the train depart. I don't know what is the system in Europe, but in a way I like the system in India- the train arrives at its scheduled time, stops at the platform, doors are open, and everyone is on their own.. if you can get in, do so, and when it's departure time, the engineer blows one long horn warning the passengers its time to leave, and starts the train at the scheduled time. There is no conductor on the platform "welcoming" every single passenger or checking if everyone has boarded. It'd the passenger's duty to make sure he/she has boarded by the departure time. You get in on your own, your seat numbers are already printed on your ticket, find your seats, settle in, and then a Ticket Checker (conductor) comes by to check your tickets. If you have the right ticket, cool. If not, you pay a fine. It may sound like an anarchy at the platform, but at least it lets the trains stick to schedules. (Ok, most trains in India hardly stick to their schedule up to the minute due to a variety of reasons but that's a different matter!)
A conductor lifting tickets on the platform is actually in violation of company policy, with but a few exceptions. For example, on the Cascades service they are permitted to lift tickets in the Seattle & Portland stations.

But in most other cases they are in violation of procedures and are doing the lifting on the platform because they are simply too lazy to do their job properly and walk the train as is required by the service standards laid out.
 
I had a harder time understanding NYP's convoluted hurry-up-and-wait boarding process as a lifetime American speaking the native tongue than I did in busy Bayern stations not knowing a lick of German. To me that says there is much to be improved in New York. I guess if you know the system and know how to work around it then it's fine. But that doesn't explain the proud indifference expressed toward the experiences of anyone who's not an insider or expert. Maybe if it were too easy for tourists it wouldn't be "cool" enough for use by average New Yorkers.
Likewise the New York Subway. They seem to like entrances poorly marked, and that is only the beginning. I understand that it is better now, but at that time the paving on the platform surfaces was primarily chewing gum.
It's much improved George, which is not to say that further improvements couldn't be made, just that things are better than they were in all regards. Yes, there are those with a critical eye that wouldn't be satisfied with butler service and nice cushy seating. But again, things are better than they were years ago.
Are you referring to NYP or MTA? I never had much of a problem with the MTA. What's funny about the butler comment is that New York City seems to do a great job of catering to the hyper-sensitive upper crust and the perpetually indifferent, while doing a surprisingly poor job of addressing the needs of the moderate middle that doesn't expect to be pampered but still appreciates intelligent design matched with an efficient workflow and a bit of sunlight now and again. I don't know much about the history of the various turf wars that resulted in today's NYP operation just like I don't know anything about the various disputes that existed in Munich or Tokyo prior to my visits there. All I know is that I found their systems so much simpler and easier to navigate, even though I was a distant foreigner with no connection to any of it. Maybe I'm just a random anomaly, but to my eye NYP seems to work in spite of its design rather than because of it. Maybe some day it will be raised and returned to its former glory, because the pictures of its early years are very impressive in my view.
I was referring to the subways.
 
It sounds real simple to say "plan where every train is going to go ahead of time." And believe it or not, they actually do that. All the switching at Penn is computer controlled and programed in advance. The problem is that reality intrudes in the form of a brake problem, or a medical emergency, or a late train. And then the plan goes right into the dumper and track assignments get changed.
I was talking about NJT and LIRR commuter trains, not Amtrak at Penn. How often do brake problems and medical emergencies happen on commuter trains?

Also, I know switching and dispatch and platform assignment is all done computerized and pre-programmed, in fact that's the reason I feel it a bit amusing that they don't tell the passengers fairly in advance which platform they should expect the train. You should someday visit, or see some videos of Churchgate train station in Mumbai, India. There are close to 800 commuter train services operating out of the station per day, and like NYP it is a stub end for the commuter trains, so each train pulls in from the south, waits for a few minutes and starts its journey back north. At the station concourse there are television screens that display the next two scheduled services expected at each platform, you look at it, find a suitable train for your destination and walk to that platform and wait. No crowding in the concourse. Yes, sometimes a train gets delayed and cannot vacate the platform in time, in that case the next scheduled train into that platform waits outside the station for a couple of minutes and then pulls in. There are rarely last minute platform substitutions. Most trains have five to ten minutes turnaround time, so if it arrives two or three minutes late, the delay is absorbed by the turnaround time and it can still start its return journey on time. It is better to let a train move in two minutes late rather than re-assigning it a platform at the drop of a hat and making thousand passengers run amok every few minutes. If this system works well on a daily basis in an Indian system which is quite technologically backward compared to some European and Asian countries, something similar can surely work on our rail systems here which have fair amount of technology incorporated into it.
 
It sounds real simple to say "plan where every train is going to go ahead of time." And believe it or not, they actually do that. All the switching at Penn is computer controlled and programed in advance. The problem is that reality intrudes in the form of a brake problem, or a medical emergency, or a late train. And then the plan goes right into the dumper and track assignments get changed.
I was talking about NJT and LIRR commuter trains, not Amtrak at Penn. How often do brake problems and medical emergencies happen on commuter trains?

Also, I know switching and dispatch and platform assignment is all done computerized and pre-programmed, in fact that's the reason I feel it a bit amusing that they don't tell the passengers fairly in advance which platform they should expect the train. You should someday visit, or see some videos of Churchgate train station in Mumbai, India. There are close to 800 commuter train services operating out of the station per day, and like NYP it is a stub end for the commuter trains, so each train pulls in from the south, waits for a few minutes and starts its journey back north. At the station concourse there are television screens that display the next two scheduled services expected at each platform, you look at it, find a suitable train for your destination and walk to that platform and wait. No crowding in the concourse. Yes, sometimes a train gets delayed and cannot vacate the platform in time, in that case the next scheduled train into that platform waits outside the station for a couple of minutes and then pulls in. There are rarely last minute platform substitutions. Most trains have five to ten minutes turnaround time, so if it arrives two or three minutes late, the delay is absorbed by the turnaround time and it can still start its return journey on time. It is better to let a train move in two minutes late rather than re-assigning it a platform at the drop of a hat and making thousand passengers run amok every few minutes. If this system works well on a daily basis in an Indian system which is quite technologically backward compared to some European and Asian countries, something similar can surely work on our rail systems here which have fair amount of technology incorporated into it.
First, let me say that it's always hard to compare operations because there are so many variables with things.

That said, please correct me if I'm wrong, but Churchgate really is a stub end terminal. NYP is not. There are actually very few trains out of the greater hole that change ends at NYP. Then there is the fact that the LIRR is coming in from the east, while NJT is coming in from the west. And again, both run the majority of their trains through the station, the LIRR to the West End Yard, NJT to Sunnyside yard or loop. Then toss in Amtrak which arrives, often late, from both the east & west.

Now I did a quick search, but could not find out how many tracks Churchgate has to handle those 800 trains. Penn on the other hand has 21 tracks with only 6 throat tracks (a very limiting problem) and according to the Gateway studies, 1,248 train movements each weekday.

Next, at NYP during rush hour most trains have at most 10 minutes on the platform, save Amtrak's trains. In fact, it is not uncomom for a LIRR track number or NJT track number to pop up on the board and the train isn't on the platform when you get downstairs. It pulls in a minute or two later, loads up, and is gone.

Next, while I'm not a frequent commuter rider on either NJT or the LIRR, just based upon my observations which are not extensive at all, I'd say that at least 3 or 4 times a day a train ends up on a different platform at the last minute. I know this because many regular commuters have indeed learned the "schedule" and therefore which platform there normal train home will be on. So when there is a track change, the announcer harps on that point repeating multiple times "this is a track change" in the vain hope that those who went down early will pay attention and come back up to change to the correct platform.

Many do, but invariably there are those with their music on who never hear that announcement and either board the wrong train or if they're lucky realize that something did go wrong and come back up to catch the next train to where they need to go.

And of course some days things go horribly wrong with a train lying down in one of the tunnels where almost every train ends up on a different platform than is normal.

Finally, there is the issue that in most cases, the platforms simply aren't wide enough for people to be standing around waiting for their train. This is quite probably the biggest reason that Penn doesn't put up track numbers until 10 minutes before. You could have two commuter trains pull in, dump their loads, and then pull out to the yard. If half the load for the first outbound train is already standing the platform, then you cannot get the people off those inbounds and the inbound trains out of the station in time to bring in their outbound train.
 
Just a few observations.....

AFAIR Churchgate has 4 platform tracks, but each track has platform on both sides.

If there is a problem with comparing a terminus with a run through station with some terminating trains, just use Mumbai Central as the example instead of Churchgate. Every train that runs from or to Churchgate runs through Mumbai Central, and in addition a bunch of MD and LD trains join the mix at Mumbai Central. Oh and the throat feeding Churchgate has 4 tracks too.

Being able to turn that many trains with 4 tracks is not surprising at all. After all MTA Subway line 7 manages to turn 30 trains per hour at Times Square using 2 tracks, i.e. 480 trains, 480 arrivals and 480 departures in a 16 hour day running full tilt.

NJTransit trains are uniquely designed to be very poor in passenger flow on and off the trains, with very little door area per car. LIRR trains are much better, but still nothing like the Mumbai EMUs when it comes to door area as a proportion of total side area of train cars. In general subusrban EMUs look more like New York subway cars when it comes to number and size of doors per car. That has greater effect on turnaround time than all the technical doo-dads for signaling the trains and such.

Sitting in Paris this week I cannot help but notice how much more floor area of each car is dedicated to passenger flow on the high capacity Paris RER trains, even the double decker ones. One of these cars can be filled and emptied twice by the time an NJT double decker manages to load up once and unload once. Frankly Commuter cars that flow through NYP are just very poorly designed to turn around quickly. The narrow platforms at NYP only exacerbate matters.

What ails the entire New York area suburban system is generally poor design of equipment and facilities, which appears to be governed more by the needs of various managerial fiefdoms than by the actual need to transport people efficiently, without concern for dealing with issues that are critical to get good throughput. Just IMHO of course.
 
As for European LD's two things have happended: Exept for Russia and closest neighbors air travel has eaten away the passenger base of the longest routes - not just because of neglect, but simply because planes are more competitive. On the other hand on the medium distances the opposite has happened, as speeds and services has gotten better, in many corridors. And the European rail companies - and the politicians behind them - have put the emfasis on expanding the service, where the competitive edge is. And rightly so. There is no general decline in the cross border traffic either - in many places it is strengthening, with the very rapid growth traffic on the bridge to Sweden from here in DK as a prime example. It is just the very long runs through a multitude of countries that has gotten fewer.
I disagree.

Airlines in the USA are much more aggressive in their marketing than European airlines. Yet we haven't seen Amtrak LD traffic dissolve in the same way European LD traffic has dissolved.

Expanding local, regional and corridor service is fine and I have nothing against that.

But LD traffic is also important, and if it is withering it is not because it somehow a thing of the past (as European rail bosses say) but because it has been neglected. It is something that gets in the way and that is at best tolerated. I have seen and followed the slow decline having travelled on most of the major routes in the 1980s and 1990s and I have seen awful mismanagement on a large scale. During their final years many of these trains were regularly formed short (cars were missing, reserved bedrooms not available and people with reserved sleeping compartments forced to travel in day coaches) while services were scaled down (phase one: restaurant car replaced by a minibar, phase two: minibar replaced by a vending machine, phase three: vending machine broken and not fixed, phase four: management sees sales have gone right down and concludes passengers don't want food). Also, timings were continuously slackened to allow other trains to overtake. Adding an hour doesn't kill an LD train, but adding an hour every year adds up to the point that it becomes ridiculous. Also, many trains do not show up in the online booking system but you have to use special tricks to even get the system to acknowledge they exist. I cannot believe all that is an accident and that in reality they are dying because people won't ride them.

I genuinely think European rail bosses should come to Amtrak to learn how LD trains are run. But then I don't really think they want to know.
 
As for European LD's two things have happended: Exept for Russia and closest neighbors air travel has eaten away the passenger base of the longest routes - not just because of neglect, but simply because planes are more competitive. On the other hand on the medium distances the opposite has happened, as speeds and services has gotten better, in many corridors. And the European rail companies - and the politicians behind them - have put the emfasis on expanding the service, where the competitive edge is. And rightly so. There is no general decline in the cross border traffic either - in many places it is strengthening, with the very rapid growth traffic on the bridge to Sweden from here in DK as a prime example. It is just the very long runs through a multitude of countries that has gotten fewer.
I disagree.

Airlines in the USA are much more aggressive in their marketing than European airlines. Yet we haven't seen Amtrak LD traffic dissolve in the same way European LD traffic has dissolved.
I don't agree with your characterization of the European LC air carriers. Ryanair for example is if anything way more aggressive than anything ever seen in the US. However, the general European attitude towards creating better balanced transportation infrastructure makes it harder for airlines to be effective over short/medium haul.

Expanding local, regional and corridor service is fine and I have nothing against that.

But LD traffic is also important, and if it is withering it is not because it somehow a thing of the past (as European rail bosses say) but because it has been neglected. It is something that gets in the way and that is at best tolerated. I have seen and followed the slow decline having travelled on most of the major routes in the 1980s and 1990s and I have seen awful mismanagement on a large scale. During their final years many of these trains were regularly formed short (cars were missing, reserved bedrooms not available and people with reserved sleeping compartments forced to travel in day coaches) while services were scaled down (phase one: restaurant car replaced by a minibar, phase two: minibar replaced by a vending machine, phase three: vending machine broken and not fixed, phase four: management sees sales have gone right down and concludes passengers don't want food). Also, timings were continuously slackened to allow other trains to overtake. Adding an hour doesn't kill an LD train, but adding an hour every year adds up to the point that it becomes ridiculous. Also, many trains do not show up in the online booking system but you have to use special tricks to even get the system to acknowledge they exist. I cannot believe all that is an accident and that in reality they are dying because people won't ride them.

I genuinely think European rail bosses should come to Amtrak to learn how LD trains are run. But then I don't really think they want to know.
The Europeans (Western Europeans at least) appear to have made a conscious decision not to subsidize classic LD trains, and hence they do not push very hard to keep them running. It would seem as freight traffic picks up they might actually want the track capacity for those rather than overnight passenger trains.

So I would be surprised if they would want to learn about how to run service they have decided they are not going to run as a matter of policy. Now if all of the local communities on the way wanted to subsidize such and run such that would create a possibility for such, but the local communities are generally more interested in running Regional/Territorial service than LD service. Consequently many areas in Europe have excellent Regional/Territorial service primarily subsidized by the regions, something that exists in a few places in the US, and is fortunately spreading more even in the US.

Classic (Amtrak style) LD trains are history in Europe, most likely never to return. The niche that is yet to be explored is sleeper HSR service covering 600 to 1000 miles overnight, but I am not aware of anyone talking about those. Many of the classic overnight trains are mostly 3-4 hour HSR corridor runs now,including a late evening departure HSR that arrives at the destination at insanely early hours.

There still are some overnight trains, and the service on them is still pretty good, though many more variety of sleeping accommodation and generally cheaper sleeping accommodation is still available on those. But those trains are much fewer than they used to be, and run with relatively low priority on extended schedules. In addition, they have midnight departure TGV type trains, arriving at 4am the following early morning and such in some cases.

Frankly, people apparently prefer not to spend 8 hours sleeping in a train when they can get to their destination and sleep in a nice hotel or home bed. That is the unfortunate truth for many.
 
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We like the way the NEC does tickets, checks IDs etc. Rarely do we feel a rush-rush atmosphere. Boarding tends to be orderly- people wanting to sit together are usually accommodated. We don't like rush-rush boarding. To us, Amtrak does not have that commuter train feel.

With a few exceptions- we have experienced (on our many train miles) polite, kindly staff and crew on Amtrak. We have seen conductors and attendants helping people over and above the call of duty fairly often.

As to LD train riders- our experience has been that the majority of passengers are family folks traveling to see other family folks- some Seniors, but more families. Most of these families are going from point A to point B and not just traveling for the scenery. Just our experience.
 
Being able to turn that many trains with 4 tracks is not surprising at all. After all MTA Subway line 7 manages to turn 30 trains per hour at Times Square using 2 tracks, i.e. 480 trains, 480 arrivals and 480 departures in a 16 hour day running full tilt.
The #7 Subway line isn't subject to the FRA mandated brake test when changing ends, like the LIRR & NJT are. I'm not saying that the brake test is a good or a bad idea, just pointing out that's why the subway can achieve that turnaround rate during rush hour.

They also up their expenses by essentially having more motorman on hand than they would need if they turned at a slower pace. In other words, when train #1 pulls in, even as that motorman is getting off a new fresh motorman is getting on at the other end. Then while train #1 pulls out, that first motorman is walking down the platform so as to be ready to take out the next train to arrive on that track.
 
As a fellow Brit, albeit now living on mainland Europe, I feel I should add my 2 cents worth.

It's always easy to criticise and it is especially easy to criticise things you don't know and don't understand.

It is my opinion that under the circumstances, Amtrak is providing a very fine service indeed.

We shouldn't compare apples with oranges. True, the NEC is the only part of Amtrak that is vaguely like a typical European corridor.

But to simplify things, and I hope the inhabitants of Illinois, Texas and other places will excuse me, but in simple terms, the USA has two long coastlines where most people live and inbetween there is much less population-wise.

That is why the corridors are precisely, there, along the coasts, with maybe a handful of short(ish) incursions inland such as the Keystone corridor.

So no surprises there.

Europe is different: There are major cities and clumps of multiple cities all over. So all of Europe is a web of interconnecting and overlapping corridors.

Amtrak LD serice has nothing to do with we have in Europe.

There are maybe two or three special cases of trains that take upwards of a day to get anywhere, but they are few and far between.

In fact there used to be many more but over the last 20 years ago they have been thinned out because national services are accorded higher priority and if you want to do such a long trip today you'll probably be forced to change trains multiple times. Very few people do that any more. Most prefer to fly. Even booking such trains is no longer simple as it happens so rarely that booking agents don't know about the possibilities.

In fact such interoperability is getting more and more challenging. In the 1970s most rolling stock was built to UIC norms and could run from one country to another without any hassle. Today there are more and more national solutions and international trains are often trumpeted as being great innovative achievements although they were normal some decades back,

So in that respect Amtrak has retained something that Europe has lost, and they deserve Kudos for that.

There used to be a direct train from Amsterdam to Rome. There was also one from Lisbon to Moscow (and this despite the uiron curtian). Today it would take about four different trains to do that.

So if anything, Europeans ought to be coming to Amtrak to learn about LD services.
Interesting take, cirdan, and I think one that at least addresses the very different population distributions of Europe and the U.S. I think it would be more meaningful to compare passenger rail service in the U.S. with Australia, Brazil, and Canada—all similar-sized countries (at least in terms of land area). (China also has a similar land area, though the vast majority of the 1 billion+ population is concentrated in the eastern part of the country.)

Keep in mind also that Mexico, with a much smaller land area than the U.S., though also much more densely populated, eliminated almost all of its passenger-railway services about ten years ago, with, AFAIK, no noticeable adverse effect on its overall transportation infrastructure.
 
Interesting take, cirdan, and I think one that at least addresses the very different population distributions of Europe and the U.S. I think it would be more meaningful to compare passenger rail service in the U.S. with Australia, Brazil, and Canada—all similar-sized countries (at least in terms of land area). (China also has a similar land area, though the vast majority of the 1 billion+ population is concentrated in the eastern part of the country.) Keep in mind also that Mexico, with a much smaller land area than the U.S., though also much more densely populated, eliminated almost all of its passenger-railway services about ten years ago, with, AFAIK, no noticeable adverse effect on its overall transportation infrastructure.
Yeah, why try to keep up with China's high speed rail or Russia's modern weather resistant passenger rail systems when we can simply follow Mexico into the passenger rail dustbin?

Sounds good to me DET63!
 
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Leeds (where I live) to Prague is, according to google maps around 1000 miles to drive.

By rail Leeds - London (domestic), London - Brussels (eurostar), Brussels - Cologne (ICE), Cologne - Prague (City Nightline). Total of 21 hours.

Chicago to Boston - also around 1000 miles by road. Lake Shore Limited (448). 22 hours 40 mins.

Hardly much slower overall.
 
Chris,

Serious question: How are the connections in there (i.e. are you counting connections as part of the time involved)?

Texas Sunset,

I don't see catching up with China, but could you explain the situation with the Russkies and their trains that you mentioned? Also, it's not just Mexico where everything went to hell...a few corridors aside, most passenger rail service in Latin America collapsed in the 90s amid a wave of privatizations.
 
Leeds (where I live) to Prague is, according to google maps around 1000 miles to drive.

By rail Leeds - London (domestic), London - Brussels (eurostar), Brussels - Cologne (ICE), Cologne - Prague (City Nightline). Total of 21 hours.

Chicago to Boston - also around 1000 miles by road. Lake Shore Limited (448). 22 hours 40 mins.

Hardly much slower overall.
exactly what I'm saying.

If you try to cost Leeds - Prague by train versus Amtrak for the connection you mention, you'll notice a huge difference in costs. Amtrak is much better value for money.

Add to that there isn't AFAIK any single webiste where you can book Leeds- Prague in one go whereas on Amtrak, again, it's easy.

Look, all I'm saying is that all this talk about Amtrak being massively inferior to European trains is comparing apples and oranges.

Amtrak is benhind on corridor services but definitely ahead on LD.
 
Being able to turn that many trains with 4 tracks is not surprising at all. After all MTA Subway line 7 manages to turn 30 trains per hour at Times Square using 2 tracks, i.e. 480 trains, 480 arrivals and 480 departures in a 16 hour day running full tilt.
The #7 Subway line isn't subject to the FRA mandated brake test when changing ends, like the LIRR & NJT are. I'm not saying that the brake test is a good or a bad idea, just pointing out that's why the subway can achieve that turnaround rate during rush hour.

They also up their expenses by essentially having more motorman on hand than they would need if they turned at a slower pace. In other words, when train #1 pulls in, even as that motorman is getting off a new fresh motorman is getting on at the other end. Then while train #1 pulls out, that first motorman is walking down the platform so as to be ready to take out the next train to arrive on that track.
As you say exactly one extra motorman. The procedure followed is called "fall back one". The motorman of the arriving train goes out as the motorman of the next train. Before walking to the other end he helps the motorman of the previous train who is by then at the other end complete the brake test, and then walks to the other end of the platform while the next train arrives.

Even if two minute cannot be done (which incidentally I don't believe to be true), five minutes should be quite doable. Heck even NJT believes they could manage 5 mins in the now defunct ARC station. :) There is a general mentality of figuring out umpteen reasons for why things cannot be done unfortunately, even when they do not stand under careful scrutiny sometimes.

Besides it is not like the rest of the world does not do brake tests before running trains. :)

BTW, turning 800 trains on a 4 platform track station requires a 6 minute turn around assuming 800 are turned in 20 hours and remaining 4 hours the station is closed. That as I said, even NJT claimed it could do in the defunct ARC station. That would be the normal situation in a station like Churchgate. OTOH in a station like Mumbai Central, which is run through for the suburban service from Churchgate to various point upto Virar, would be 1600 trains in 20 hours on 4 tracks or equivalent (arrival + departure + dwell = 3 mins). The additional terminating trains operate out of there on two additional tracks, so they need not be taken into consideration at all.
 
What about access to the platforms? You mentioned doors and time to load/unload, but if you can't get one train load of people off out of the way and another train load of people onto the platform to be ready to load, it won't matter how fast you're loading or turning a train.
 
What about access to the platforms? You mentioned doors and time to load/unload, but if you can't get one train load of people off out of the way and another train load of people onto the platform to be ready to load, it won't matter how fast you're loading or turning a train.
Yes that is a major issue at Penn Station. And it is further exacerbated by NJT's poor design of their cars, which are not well designed for smooth flow onto and off of cars. Amtrak also suffers from the same problem but they can be excused since they are not into moving the masses. Though I would note that a typical TGV train has better flow design than a Amfleet Regional car. Acelas get closer to what one sees on TGVs. Basically the vestibule area is much larger allowing parallel counterflow through there, and doors are wider too.

In Paris RER and Banlieu trains the door width are such that a flow of 4 parallel lines of people is feasible, and on some three parallel flows are forced by judicious placement of divider posts. It is astounding how quickly each of those doubledecker cars can disgorge their 180 or so passengers at a stop (provided people don;t get into an arm wrestling match with people trying to board that is :) ).

Again platform area is a paramount consideration too. For example at the Gare du Nord or Chatelet Les Halles, two major interchange station between 3 RER routes and a bunch of Metro routes, platform width is 30' with massive banks of stairs and high speed escalators!! So those 180 per car discharged from a 8 car train can disperse very very quickly
 
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