Well sure, the surroundings were nicer for what ever reason and when you rode a road that took pride in its service you were treated like they really enjoyed your being there. It was typical of the parlor car attendant on the GM&O to bring you drinks or snacks for the diner without having to prod them into it. On detraining he always took a wide clothing brush and whisk any lint or foreign things off your cloths or coat. The diner was like a nice restaurant with the Mater D over looking every thing to see it was just so, they didn't make you feel like your taking up space because they had to move more prepaid passengers though like they do now. The food was real, not pre-made and of higher quality than now. In the sleepers the luggage was loaded and unloaded without your asking it to be done, it was part of the service. Shoes were shined over night for passengers. The lounges were plush and comfortable with more of a living room setting than a hospital waiting room with plastic chairs. The interiors were attractive and thoughtful though out the better trains. And the most important part was that passenger trains were the pride of the company and running on time was very important. I can recall many times the Panama Limited coming in to a station and stopping exactly on the minute it was due. The railroad tried very hard to make that so. If your traveled overnight and the train left at an odd time like near midnight you could board your sleeper and have a good nights rest before it left instead of boarding so late. The other thing I miss the most is that when you went to a station in any major city you could then take a train in any direction with easy connections to towns major an minor. I still think without a more expansive system rail will stay a lesser form of travel for many simply because they cant' get where they are wanting to go easily.
LD Train Travel Then vs now
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Well sure, the surroundings were nicer for what ever reason and when you rode a road that took pride in its service you were treated like they really enjoyed your being there. It was typical of the parlor car attendant on the GM&O to bring you drinks or snacks for the diner without having to prod them into it. On detraining he always took a wide clothing brush and whisk any lint or foreign things off your cloths or coat. The diner was like a nice restaurant with the Mater D over looking every thing to see it was just so, they didn't make you feel like your taking up space because they had to move more prepaid passengers though like they do now. The food was real, not pre-made and of higher quality than now. In the sleepers the luggage was loaded and unloaded without your asking it to be done, it was part of the service. Shoes were shined over night for passengers. The lounges were plush and comfortable with more of a living room setting than a hospital waiting room with plastic chairs. The interiors were attractive and thoughtful though out the better trains. And the most important part was that passenger trains were the pride of the company and running on time was very important. I can recall many times the Panama Limited coming in to a station and stopping exactly on the minute it was due. The railroad tried very hard to make that so. If your traveled overnight and the train left at an odd time like near midnight you could board your sleeper and have a good nights rest before it left instead of boarding so late. The other thing I miss the most is that when you went to a station in any major city you could then take a train in any direction with easy connections to towns major an minor. I still think without a more expansive system rail will stay a lesser form of travel for many simply because they cant' get where they are wanting to go easily.
Devil's Advocate
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Yes, a few foreign airlines like SQ have what could be termed an updated version of a roomette. Some also have stand-up bars and EK even has airborne showers on some aircraft. However, the routes that have roomette-like accommodations are few and far between and the cost is strictly for the private varnish crowd. Even SQ's seven thousand dollar First Class RTW fare specifically excludes the use of any suites anywhere in the network. I haven't yet checked but I'm guessing the twelve thousand dollar *A First Class RTW fare might also suffer from the same restrictions.
I was 11 when Amtrak took over and my pre-Amtrak rides consisted of the RF&P, B & O and CB&Q. Coach class on Amtrak affords some consistency and subtle luxury, back in the day the coach cars ran the gamut from foldover seats, linoleum floors, open luggage racks to heywood-wakefield coach seats, venetian blinds and ornate murals at the ends of the cars. I recall getting off a Budd sleeper in DC after riding the CL going to an old Pullman six axle baggage/coach on the RF&P. A bit of a culture shock.
The refurbed Superliner sleepers, IMHO, are just a nice as the sleepers pre-Amtrak, at least on the roads I travelled.
Diners and lounges back in the day were more luxurious with the colorful china, more ornate silverware and silver tureens for coffee, cream, milk, etc.
On board service was much better pre-Amtrak. More of them and always polite to a fault.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
It is a misconception that the Turquoise Room died with Amtrak. It didn't- rather, it died with the Super Chief when Amtrak vanquished the last of its Pullman dome cars in 1974. That had nothing to do, by the way, with Amtrak's desire to cut service.
Rather, Amtrak strategically eliminated Pullman-Standard as it could. Almost none of them made the Heritage program. And with good reason- they were poorly built. The last Pullman cars were Southern all bedroom cars, retired when the Auto Train went Superliner in the early 90s.
Of the approximately 10,000 cars Amtrak theoretically acquired in 1971, only 5000 of them even turned a single wheel in Amtrak service. I have evidence that some 800 cars supposedly transferred to Amtrak (mostly PC) were scrapped in the years leading up to Amtrak. Of the 5000 cars that Amtrak operated, only 2000 of them saw 1972. And only 1600 of those saw 1973. Almost all of the cars that made it to 1973 were built by Edward G. Budd Company of Philadelphia, PA.
Why? 90-95 percent of PS cars were in rotten shape by the early 70s. They were rusty, structurally unsound, and poorly maintained. Remember, UP, Santa Fe, Burlington, and GN, and NP primarily had stainless cars- meaning Budd. The eastern roads were where Pullman still held sway, because most of their equipment was much older- by the early 50s, the superiority of Budd cars was unquestioned.
Amtrak didn't pick the prettiest cars to handle its trains. That would have been idiotic. And Amtrak, we should all thank god, was not run by idiots. They picked, rather, the cars that could survive best limited maintenance, excessive over running, and many many years of life. This pragmatic approach to its operations are why we still have Amtrak today.
I often wonder if W. Graham Claytor understood that we'd still be running some of those Heritage cars some 18 years after he died. Cars he himself had said were aged museum pieces in desperate need of replacement. Maybe Amtrak could have futzed around with things the way VIA did, but if so I doubt we'd have a national intercity rail operator at this time.
Rather, Amtrak strategically eliminated Pullman-Standard as it could. Almost none of them made the Heritage program. And with good reason- they were poorly built. The last Pullman cars were Southern all bedroom cars, retired when the Auto Train went Superliner in the early 90s.
Of the approximately 10,000 cars Amtrak theoretically acquired in 1971, only 5000 of them even turned a single wheel in Amtrak service. I have evidence that some 800 cars supposedly transferred to Amtrak (mostly PC) were scrapped in the years leading up to Amtrak. Of the 5000 cars that Amtrak operated, only 2000 of them saw 1972. And only 1600 of those saw 1973. Almost all of the cars that made it to 1973 were built by Edward G. Budd Company of Philadelphia, PA.
Why? 90-95 percent of PS cars were in rotten shape by the early 70s. They were rusty, structurally unsound, and poorly maintained. Remember, UP, Santa Fe, Burlington, and GN, and NP primarily had stainless cars- meaning Budd. The eastern roads were where Pullman still held sway, because most of their equipment was much older- by the early 50s, the superiority of Budd cars was unquestioned.
Amtrak didn't pick the prettiest cars to handle its trains. That would have been idiotic. And Amtrak, we should all thank god, was not run by idiots. They picked, rather, the cars that could survive best limited maintenance, excessive over running, and many many years of life. This pragmatic approach to its operations are why we still have Amtrak today.
I often wonder if W. Graham Claytor understood that we'd still be running some of those Heritage cars some 18 years after he died. Cars he himself had said were aged museum pieces in desperate need of replacement. Maybe Amtrak could have futzed around with things the way VIA did, but if so I doubt we'd have a national intercity rail operator at this time.
I think these lie flat seats could have potential for Amtrak. How expensive are these seats? I can see that the entertainment systems might not work so well in a railroad car. But if the seats had outlets, people could plug in their laptops, phones, etc anyway.
For some reason, the seats on long distance Amtrak coaches are not as comfortable as in the past. They are especially weak in providing support for the lower back. If Amtrak could address this issue, that would help too. And if they implemented the lie flat seats in an upgraded BC format on overnight trains, that would work too.
How expensive? Perhaps as much or more than a dentist chair? Maybe $50k or more?
We have discussed this before...I think most of us old-timers fondly remember those wonderful Heywood-Wakefield "Sleepy Hollow" line of reclining coach and parlor car chairs. They were designed to be ergonomically correct after taking thousands of measurements of different people.
They were supremely comfortable and were built to last.
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The Scenicruiser was designed by Greyhound engineers and styled by famous industrial designer Raymond Loewey, long associated with the PRR. It was built by General Motors Truck and Coach Division at Pontiac, Mi. in 1954,55, and 56. One Thousand and One were built. Originally powered by two Detroit Diesel 4-71 engines, until 1962 when they were all rebuilt with the new Detroit Diesel 8v-71. They were designed to compete with the new vista-dome streamliners of the era, so it is no surprise that they bear a strong resemblance to them. Indeed, if you got the first row window seats on the upper level, the view was very similar to that enjoyed in a dome car.Initially when introduced they were branded Scenicruisers. They had significant structural problems, which were fixed, and the fixed upgraded ones were rebranded as "Super Scenicruiser".
I remember riding one of these from Boston to Niagara Falls and back in 1965.
rrdude
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The seat in the flat position is pretty low, and the back of the seat structure for the row in front of you is rigid, i.e that seat does not tilt into your row. Given the 55" or more seat pitch there is huge room to just skip across the adjacent flat bed without a problem. But yes you do have skip across. Also there is never more than one such seat to skip across since the layout in 777 is 2-2-2 in 757 is 2-2 and in 767 is 1-2-1.
Probably the East Coast ChampionMy first train trip was in the mid 1960's. It was my 8th grade school trip from Miami to Washington DC over spring break. I believe it was the Atlantic Coast Line and have no idea what the name of the train was, however, I know that Bill will know. As an 8th grader without a parent, I had a wonderful time. The one negative I remembered was the food. I think they fed us powdered eggs for breakfast (or maybe it just seemed like it). I remembered the food smell permeating the train and it was not pleasant. I also remember it being very cold in WAS and we Miami girls were not used to that weather.
In college, I traveled Amtrak (early 70's) from Waldo to Fayetteville (changing trains in JAX). I was a smoker at the timeand was very pleased that the "women's lounge" had a couch and plenty of space for us smokers to hand out. We were not treated like second class citizens. Now that I am a non smoker, I am very happy that smoking is not allowed on trains.
frj1983
OBS Chief
The whole issue about showering is, I think, a generational thing as well. When I was growing up (family of 8) we did not have a shower...we all took a bath once a week and then washed up from the bathroom sink the rest of the week. My Wife looks with pity/horror on her face when I tell her this. She and her Brother had their own bathroom with shower.
But I do remember the frist Superliner I's...they had no showers! You just washed up from the sink in the bathrooms. I remember when an Onboard Service Attendant told me that the I's were going to be retrofitted with showers (on a trip I was taking), I thought, wow, what a concept!
Imagine a day when the train was still taken seriously enough to bother competing against.
The Scenicruiser was designed by Greyhound engineers and styled by famous industrial designer Raymond Loewey, long associated with the PRR. It was built by General Motors Truck and Coach Division at Pontiac, Mi. in 1954,55, and 56. One Thousand and One were built. Originally powered by two Detroit Diesel 4-71 engines, until 1962 when they were all rebuilt with the new Detroit Diesel 8v-71. They were designed to compete with the new vista-dome streamliners of the era, so it is no surprise that they bear a strong resemblance to them. Indeed, if you got the first row window seats on the upper level, the view was very similar to that enjoyed in a dome car.Initially when introduced they were branded Scenicruisers. They had significant structural problems, which were fixed, and the fixed upgraded ones were rebranded as "Super Scenicruiser".
I remember riding one of these from Boston to Niagara Falls and back in 1965.
I recall some long distance bus schedules which were near duplicates of specific train schedules as well.
i recall a scenicruiser from Cincinnati to Miami which came through Chattanooga pretty much on the schedule of the Royal Palm. I remember it actually had a name, like a train. And I THOUGHT it had reserved seats, stewardess and coffee.
Looking through old mid 50's brochures, I found a bus that called itself the Imperial which went from Cincinnati to Miami via Chattanooga. However, I see no mention of reserved seats, stewardess or coffee.
Google did not help much. I see the word "imperial" splashed around but not to the bus service noted above.
Anybody know if there was such a thing or an I just getting old and crazy?
Not taking edit, will try again later.Imagine a day when the train was still taken seriously enough to bother competing against.
The Scenicruiser was designed by Greyhound engineers and styled by famous industrial designer Raymond Loewey, long associated with the PRR. It was built by General Motors Truck and Coach Division at Pontiac, Mi. in 1954,55, and 56. One Thousand and One were built. Originally powered by two Detroit Diesel 4-71 engines, until 1962 when they were all rebuilt with the new Detroit Diesel 8v-71. They were designed to compete with the new vista-dome streamliners of the era, so it is no surprise that they bear a strong resemblance to them. Indeed, if you got the first row window seats on the upper level, the view was very similar to that enjoyed in a dome car.Initially when introduced they were branded Scenicruisers. They had significant structural problems, which were fixed, and the fixed upgraded ones were rebranded as "Super Scenicruiser".
I remember riding one of these from Boston to Niagara Falls and back in 1965.
I recall some long distance bus schedules which were near duplicates of specific train schedules as well.
i recall a scenicruiser from Cincinnati to Miami which came through Chattanooga pretty much on the schedule of the Royal Palm. I remember it actually had a name, like a train. And I THOUGHT it had reserved seats, stewardess and coffee.
Looking through old mid 50's brochures, I found a bus that called itself the Imperial which went from Cincinnati to Miami via Chattanooga. However, I see no mention of reserved seats, stewardess or coffee.
Google did not help much. I see the word "imperial" splashed around but not to the bus service noted above.
Anybody know if there was such a thing or an I just getting old and crazy?
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Devil's Advocate
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You mean like today? Cars and planes are still forced to compete with more modern trains in many industrialized countries that didn't spend the last fifty years resting on their laurels.
Sure. Good point. My context was what I am most familiar with, the US.
We would never take more than an overnight train trip without having access to a shower. Yes people in the old days didn't shower as much and if you go back to the days of the cave man they didn't shower at all. So what do they do? They just stunk like hell!!! I guess that they must have been fond of the smell of B.O.
Devil's Advocate
⠀⠀⠀
Fair enough. I just think it's an important case to make if we're ever going to turn this situation around some day. It's nigh impossible to travel back in time and see all the great luxury trains of old, but it's certainly not impossible to bring over better ideas from more advanced cultures who kept on innovating while we sat around and stagnated.
I was under the impression that train stations or nearby establishments provided washrooms and related services for those who needed a quick shower but didn't have one on the train.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
First of all, I'd assume their sense of smell was very limited, due to the pervasive smoke from tobacco. Second, if you are in an area full of a given smell, in general, you will stop smelling it in short order. My office is a small paradise to Mus Domesticus, Mus Musculus, Peromyscus leucopus, and Meriones unguiculatus, and as a result I have become pretty inured to the smell of rodent urine. I can notice it sometimes, just after entering the room, but in general I don't even notice its presence.
Now, if my dad comes in the room, he is usually overwhelmed by it. I'd imagine that the same thing once was when it came to the natural scent of human beings. One didn't notice it because people are almost incapable of using scent to useful purpose. Unlike most other mammals, we don't use scent to our advantage. If we did, the use of deodorants would be offensive to us.
On a side note, if anyone happens to be wondering what an excellent and fascinating pet is, Peromyscus leucopus, generally referred to misleadingly as a white footed mouse, would qualify. It is not a mouse. Mice are of the genus Mus, sub family Murinae, family Muridae. Peromyscus are not mice, they are Peromyscus, Neotominae, Cricetidae. They only thing they share genetically with mice is rough shape and rodentia teeth.
I have in my spare time been working on a project to document our pet Peromyscus, Sally's, intelligence. There are times where I wonder if she's testing me more than the other way around. While she can't vocalize on a sonic level I can hear, she has been learning communication on an impressive level. I think if she was interested, she could fully understand english. I clocked her at over 15 mph in her wheel, and have measured her ability to jump from a standing start to a height of 38.3 inches.
I'm babbling, aren't I?
Bill Haithcoat--this is reply to your question in post #87 (I can't seem to quote with only your question...when I tried to remove the rest it didn't go through).
You are correct. Greyhound Lines in the late 1950's introduced "Golden Scenicruiser Service" on select routes, including the one you mention, with the amenities you mentioned. Several of these trips were "named trips", such as "Sun King Limited", Sun Maid Limited", etc. They ran from several origins in the midwest to Florida.
They were equipped with new single-level GMC PD4104 coaches. The service only lasted a brief period, and the coaches were converted to standard.
The competing National Trailways Bus System ran a network of extra-fare "Five-Star Luxury Service with similar amenities. There were also many earlier examples in the history of motorcoach service, including full Pullman-style sleepers.
The Trailways Five Star services ended in the '70's, last operated with "Golden Eagle" coaches. Greyhound also made another attempt with their "BusPlus" service in the northeast corridor in the early '70's. Didn't last long.
Other companies that come to mind are Jefferson Lines--at first with "Parlor Car Service" between the Minneapolis Airport and the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Mn. Later they ran a hostess service between Kansas City and Des Moines.
Wisconsin-Michigan coaches ran one between Milwaukee and Green Bay.
The Ontario Northland Railway supplemented their "Northlander" train with bus service on an overnight schedule between Toronto, North Bay, and Timmins, On. It was marketed as "The ZZSleeperZZ--Slumber Lounge Coach". It had no food, but did have comfortable full recliners in a spacious two-and-one layout.
Nowadays, extra-fare bus services are operated by LimoLiner between New York and Boston, and Hampton Jitney between eastern Long Island and New York City. They also operate a seasonal auto-bus service from Long Island to Florida for the snow-birds. The autos are transported in accompanying car-carrier trucks.
I believe there are others around, one of which runs from Southern California to Las Vegas, Nv.
You are correct. Greyhound Lines in the late 1950's introduced "Golden Scenicruiser Service" on select routes, including the one you mention, with the amenities you mentioned. Several of these trips were "named trips", such as "Sun King Limited", Sun Maid Limited", etc. They ran from several origins in the midwest to Florida.
They were equipped with new single-level GMC PD4104 coaches. The service only lasted a brief period, and the coaches were converted to standard.
The competing National Trailways Bus System ran a network of extra-fare "Five-Star Luxury Service with similar amenities. There were also many earlier examples in the history of motorcoach service, including full Pullman-style sleepers.
The Trailways Five Star services ended in the '70's, last operated with "Golden Eagle" coaches. Greyhound also made another attempt with their "BusPlus" service in the northeast corridor in the early '70's. Didn't last long.
Other companies that come to mind are Jefferson Lines--at first with "Parlor Car Service" between the Minneapolis Airport and the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Mn. Later they ran a hostess service between Kansas City and Des Moines.
Wisconsin-Michigan coaches ran one between Milwaukee and Green Bay.
The Ontario Northland Railway supplemented their "Northlander" train with bus service on an overnight schedule between Toronto, North Bay, and Timmins, On. It was marketed as "The ZZSleeperZZ--Slumber Lounge Coach". It had no food, but did have comfortable full recliners in a spacious two-and-one layout.
Nowadays, extra-fare bus services are operated by LimoLiner between New York and Boston, and Hampton Jitney between eastern Long Island and New York City. They also operate a seasonal auto-bus service from Long Island to Florida for the snow-birds. The autos are transported in accompanying car-carrier trucks.
I believe there are others around, one of which runs from Southern California to Las Vegas, Nv.
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It was a pleasure re-learning all these memories. I did kind of know names like Golden Eagle,etc. I think Sun King Limited is the one which went through Chattanooga. Somehow I did not keep any brochures on the subject except the relatively non specific Imperial Service previously noted. Guess I am not going crazy after all.
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sunchaser
Conductor
I too am one that desires to shower/bathe daily. I understand that years back they may not have bathed as often, but from what I understand, the lack of access to indoor plumbing may have been the reason. I had a classmate in high school (1970s)whose family had moved from back east, and their old house had no indoor plumbing. Human beings olfactory capabilities are limited. We actually can only smell three scents, then after that they all smell the same. I don't know how long it takes for the nose to recover. I liked your 'mouse' story!
I do not remember showers in the stations. I may have forgotten them or never knew they were there. But of course if they did exist I do not think my parents would have wanted me to use them, traveling alone. I took several trips from Chattanooga to San Francisco in coach (three nights in each direction) when I was much younger and not showering did not seem to be a problem.
Remember a couple of things: one does not get very dirty on a train,except in the old steam engine days and also many people smoked back then.
So I guess we were just used to it
I doubt if more than eight or nine trains had showers. A few had a rentable shower for sleeping car passengers in the lounge. The Crescent and the Broadway Limited had a single room called a Master Room. It's shower was only for the occupants of that room. The CZ had a drawing room which included a shower. Otherwise.....a good sponge bath if you were in sleeper.
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ALC Rail Writer
Engineer
Not sure if I should congratulate you, fear you, or hire you an exterminator?
George Harris
Engineer
Well remember the Scenicruiser. They were a little top heavy. Rode one several times as a child with Mother or just self and sister between Memphis and Jackson Tenn. My mother was subject to motion sickness and the extra swaying did not do her any good. Also rode one several times myself during college days. Generally preferred Trailways where there was a choice. One of the drivers commented that one big push behind the design was to allow more space for package freight. Greyhound, and also Trailways, were the road based equivalents to the Railway Express Agency. At one time, maybe still they make more profit off the freight than the passengers.
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Pullman
Train Attendant
This is wonderful reading. Thank you all for posting.
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