Would a daylight Crescent even work?

Every now and then on here when talking about the Crescent, I've seen talk about running a second Crescent running in daylight between Atlanta and Washington, but would that even work? Looking at the Crescent's schedule right now, the simple solution would be to introduce the second frequency running on a 12 hour shifted schedule of the current Crescent.

So #19A as we'll call it would leave NYP at 2:04 AM, leave WAS at 6:30 AM, leave ATL at 8:38PM and arrive NOL at 7:38AM the next day.

#20A would leave NOL at 7:05PM, leave ATL at 8:21AM the next day, leave WAS at 10:10PM, and arrive NYP at 2:40AM the next day. Does anyone really want to go in or out of New York at 2AM? I just don't think this would work much as I'd like it to. An alternative might be to back up the "daylight" schedule by 2 hours so you'd have #19A going calling at midnight, 4AM, 6PM, and 5AM and #20 calling at 5PM, 6AM, 8PM, and midnight. But that gives crap time at WAS and NOL southbound.

Much as I'd love to get on in Atlanta in the morning and be in Washington in the evening, I'd also rather have a train people will use thus "spreading goodwill" about passenger rail service in general.

MattW said:

Every now and then on here when talking about the Crescent, I've seen talk about running a second Crescent running in daylight between Atlanta and Washington, but would that even work? Looking at the Crescent's schedule right now, the simple solution would be to introduce the second frequency running on a 12 hour shifted schedule of the current Crescent.

So #19A as we'll call it would leave NYP at 2:04 AM, leave WAS at 6:30 AM, leave ATL at 8:38PM and arrive NOL at 7:38AM the next day.

#20A would leave NOL at 7:05PM, leave ATL at 8:21AM the next day, leave WAS at 10:10PM, and arrive NYP at 2:40AM the next day. Does anyone really want to go in or out of New York at 2AM? I just don't think this would work much as I'd like it to. An alternative might be to back up the "daylight" schedule by 2 hours so you'd have #19A going calling at midnight, 4AM, 6PM, and 5AM and #20 calling at 5PM, 6AM, 8PM, and midnight. But that gives crap time at WAS and NOL southbound.

Much as I'd love to get on in Atlanta in the morning and be in Washington in the evening, I'd also rather have a train people will use thus "spreading goodwill" about passenger rail service in general.

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Just make the northern terminus Washington instead of New York, using the exact times you've given.

Actually I'd go the other way, sort of. I'd kill off the New Orleans end totally. The ridership isn't there.

Just run a Palmetto like train between NY and Atlanta.

I agree, make the northern terminus WAS. In fact the WAS-NYP times listed almost duplicate the times of trains #66 & #67!

This also would allow a same day connection to/from the SL in NOL!

AlanB said:

Actually I'd go the other way, sort of. I'd kill off the New Orleans end totally. The ridership isn't there.

Just run a Palmetto like train between NY and Atlanta.

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I agree with that strategy. I don't think the second frequency was/would ever be considered for the whole NYP/NOL route.

GaSteve said:

AlanB said:

Actually I'd go the other way, sort of. I'd kill off the New Orleans end totally. The ridership isn't there.

Just run a Palmetto like train between NY and Atlanta.

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I agree with that strategy. I don't think the second frequency was/would ever be considered for the whole NYP/NOL route.

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I think they need to either keep the ATL-NOL route or reinstate something from the East Coast to NOL. I hate to say this, but killing an East Coast-NOL connection will probably have nasty ripple effects for the Sunset Limited.

That said, doubling up the ATL-WAS/NYP route makes sense, and with proper timing, they could probably shuffle the WAS-LYH regional so that once the Cardinal gets dailified, you'd have four trains per day going each way on the CVS-WAS run (Regional, Crescent, Crescent B, and Cardinal)...and that particular run is the bread and butter of the LYH-WAS run. I'm not sure if there's quite the market for that, but I'd speculate that there is based on the response to the one daily regional that was added.

In this particular case, I think a WAS-ATL train would operate fine.

In general, though, it's a common misconception that you need to have schedules 12 hours apart on a long-distance route to serve all cities at decent times. Depending on your definition of "decent," a shift of 6 or 8 hours is generally sufficient to serve some intermediate points at good times while still providing marketable times at the endpoints or major population centers.

For example (drifting slightly off topic), similar to the above example, if you were to run a second California Zephyr, SW Chief, or Empire Builder on a schedule shifted by 12 hours, you'd have trains arriving/leaving Chicago at 3 am. So, you'd serve Holdrege, NE at a good time (for the two people that might get on there) at the expense of losing the Chicago market.

Instead, a train shifted by 8 hours would leave Chicago at 10:00 pm (similar to the Lake Shore Limited's departure time), and still serve the currently middle-of-the-night stations during waking hours.

AlanB said:

Actually I'd go the other way, sort of. I'd kill off the New Orleans end totally. The ridership isn't there.

Just run a Palmetto like train between NY and Atlanta.

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Killing the service to New Orleans may adversely affect the Sunset Limited. It'd also reduce the total number of connections available to passengers, which is a move away from a more expansive passenger rail system. I remain convinced that the reason the NOL-ATL-NOL segment does so poorly is due to poor marketing. There's no other way a service that's more affordable than Greyhound can be so empty!

However, one train a day is enough-ATL-WAS could be a good day train, especially if it went via Richmond instead of Charlottesville. It may not even need a sleeper if it leaves ATL in the morning, reaches WAS at night and then does WAS-ATL the next morning. And while we're at it, Superliners in ATL would be nice too! :lol:

I'm sure Amtrak will be glad to operate any or all of those as soon as you provide the startup costs and equipment, and provide the first year's operating losses.

I realize that Amtrak is older than many AU members, some of whom have not lived through the funding struggles or even reviewed the marvelous Amtrak Timetable website.

Southern Railway operated the Piedmont on a day schedule between Washington and Atlanta up until the mid 1970s. It carried coaches, a diner lounge car and numerous bulk mail and TOFC cars. It left Washington mid morning connecting with the overnight train on the corridor. It was a fairly slow train compared to the Crescent with more stops. The arrival in Atlanta was around 12:45AM. It was an early departure northbound from Atlanta as the equipment turned around. The Piedmont connected at Salisbury with a stub train to Asheville. The patronage was excellent as far as Charlotte, but dropped off significantly south of there probably due to the arrival and departure times. The train made a good connection with the Cardinal at Charlottesville to and from Chicago. I remember riding on a Sunday afternoon in September, 1972 from Charlottesville to Charlotte when the train was packed with 3 full coaches and the Diner-Lounge; Johnson City which was built for the Tennessean. The menu in the Diner-Lounge was limited with meals served on high quality paper and styrofoam unlike the china and silver on the Crescent. The offerings were better than the Amtrak Cafe-Lounges of today. I think the fact that the train did well as far as Charlotte was a factor in starting the Carolinian. There were a good number of passengers connecting for Asheville at Salisbury. Hopefully North Carolina will restor Asheville service in the future with good connections at the mainline.

Wow. I was just thinking about this the other day and decided not to post because I just couldn't make the times work.

My idea was for a train, perhaps called the "Peach State", which would operate from the Northeast to Atlanta, only. Theoretically if you start in Washington, you could run a day train from DC to Atlanta with a pretty good schedule. But then you miss out on the ridership from places north of Washington. The Peach State would be an all coach train with an Amcafe.

As an alternative, one could run a train with sleepers (I know there aren't any to spare) from Boston to Atlanta. This train could have roughly the same times as Matt W. suggested and could serve as a night train from Boston to Washington. This would be great for those who desire sleeping compartments and an overnight trip. The Peach State could replace Regional 67 between Boston and Washington, which Traveler already pointed out.

Here's a theoretical schedule for the "Peach State" from Boston to Atlanta:

BOS: 9:45p

NHV: 12:45a

NYP: 2:35a

PHL: 4:25a

WAS: 7:00a

CLT: 2:50p

ATL: 8:45p

I think the demand is there for a second Crescent at least north of Atlanta. When I ride the train it's usually full. And unfortunately, for me roomettes are generally way too expensive, even at the low bucket for the Crescent. A daytime run would make me far more likely to choose the train. (I travel several times a year between WAS and ATL).

Given current practical run times, a day train between New York and Atlanta is not quite practical. However, the Soutbound Piedmont of the early to mid 70's also connected with the first Metroliner out of New York, so a same day run New York to Atlanta was possible. What I would consider a sensible second frequency would be to:

Shift the current Crescent to slightly earlier, making an Atlanta arrival of about 7:30 am, making it a good overnight business train from the northeast. Then, make a second southbound that arrives at Charlotte NC at about 7:30 am, continuing on to Atlanta, and if the Meridian to Texas concept ever returns, on to Birmingham, Meridian, and Dallas/Ft. Worth.

Northbound, leave the Crescent about where it is. Add a train that would have a New York City arrival of just short of 8:00 am. This would leavem Atlanta early in the afternoon before, and also gives a reasonable evening departure time from Charlotte NC. This train would also be the train out of Dallas/Ft. Worth.

A Raleigh - Greensboro connection could be made to the early morning Atlanta arrival / evening Atlanta departure, giving a nice overnight between these points.

If you really want a day train between Washington and Atlanta, then it should also have a Raleigh - Greensboro section. A late evening southbound departure to New Orleans - early morning arrival from New Orleans should follow the pre-Amtrak route through Montgomery AL and Mobile AL. It would make a Sunset Limited connection at New Orleans for both directions, and also providing service along the Mississippi Gulf Coast. Yes, this an approximation of the former Piedmont Limited schedule.

Tracktwentynine said:

Wow. I was just thinking about this the other day and decided not to post because I just couldn't make the times work.

My idea was for a train, perhaps called the "Peach State", which would operate from the Northeast to Atlanta, only. Theoretically if you start in Washington, you could run a day train from DC to Atlanta with a pretty good schedule. But then you miss out on the ridership from places north of Washington. The Peach State would be an all coach train with an Amcafe.

As an alternative, one could run a train with sleepers (I know there aren't any to spare) from Boston to Atlanta. This train could have roughly the same times as Matt W. suggested and could serve as a night train from Boston to Washington. This would be great for those who desire sleeping compartments and an overnight trip. The Peach State could replace Regional 67 between Boston and Washington, which Traveler already pointed out.

Here's a theoretical schedule for the "Peach State" from Boston to Atlanta:

BOS: 9:45p

NHV: 12:45a

NYP: 2:35a

PHL: 4:25a

WAS: 7:00a

CLT: 2:50p

ATL: 8:45p

I think the demand is there for a second Crescent at least north of Atlanta. When I ride the train it's usually full. And unfortunately, for me roomettes are generally way too expensive, even at the low bucket for the Crescent. A daytime run would make me far more likely to choose the train. (I travel several times a year between WAS and ATL).

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Is it just me, or does this seem a lot like the old Twilight Shoreliner in terms of scheduling?

Condensed schedules January 1956

SOUTHBOUND

crescent lv ny 2 pm, lv wash 6.10 pm ar atl 8 am ar NOL 6.55 pm

piedmont limited lv nyc 10.25 pm lv wash 3 am ar atl 6.40 pm ar nol 8.05 am

washington atlanta new orleans express lv nyc 8.30 am(connection at washington) lv wash 1.40 pm ar atl 6;30 am (no thru cars to nol)

southerner lv nyc 4.35 pm lv wash 8.30 pm ar atl 9.50 am ar nol 8.50 pm

peach queen lv nyc 6.25 pm lv wash 11.10 pm ar atl 3.45 pm (did not go to nol)

nameless all stops local lv wash 8.30 am ar atl 8.15 next morning

NORTHBOUND

crescent lv nol 11 pm, lv atl 1.45pm ar wash 3.15 am ar nyc 9.15 am

piedmont limited lv nol 5 pm lv atl 9am ar wash 1.15 am ar nyc 6.25 am

washington atlanta new orleans express (did not go to nol) lv atl 12.30am ar wash 5.15 pm connection to nyc ar 10 pm

southerner lv nol 8 am lv atl 9.40 pm ar wash 9.10 am ar nyc 1.30 pm

peach queen (did not come from nol) lv atl 1.55 pm, ar wash 6,45 am ar nyc 10.55 am

nameless all stops local lv atl 10.45 pm at wash 8.45 pm

coach passengers going to and from new york had to change trains in washington except for those on the southerner.

keep in mind that some of the more inconvenient hours some trains had set out sleepers. for example atlanta in each direction on the washington atlanta new orleans express.

If the goal is a daytime NYP or WAS to Atlanta train, the better path would be via the SE HSR corridor. That route would hit more population centers in Richmond, Raleigh/Durham region, and should provide connections to the Norfolk/VA Beach & Newport News region. NC has gotten close to $600 million for the Raleigh to Charlotte corridor which will make a lot of trip time and capacity improvements. If the Richmond to Raleigh section of the SE HSR can get funded and built along with funding for at least some improvements to the DC to Richmond section, the trip time improvements should make a daytime WAS to Atlanta train very viable, even with no major improvements in SC and GA.

But the Richmond to Raleigh new SE HSR route is likely some years off. If the idea is to follow the Crescent route, then the < 750 mile restriction requiring state funding could get in the way. The distance from WAS to ATL is 634 track miles according to the schedule. If Amtrak were to start a new service WAS to ATL, they would have to get state funding to support it if my understanding of the rules is correct. VA and NC might kick in, but GA? I'm putting SC on the forget it list.

The NYP to ATL distance is 859 track miles, so Amtrak could start that as an LD train, similar to the Palmetto, if there was enough money in the annual operating subsidy to cover it. With the ridership and revenues steadily increasing for the LD trains, that might be possible. However, the current Crescent trip times from NYP to Atlanta is 18 hours, which is really long for a day train. Leave NYP/ATL at 6 AM, arrive ATL/NYP at midnight are not desirable times. OTOH, the Crescent schedule is likely rather padded. But, if the train can run faster on the NEC with a 125 mph Viewliner 2 baggage car and maybe even a V 2 diner, the NS route in Virginia gets improvements between NS work and some VA rail funding, the Greenboro to Charlotte NC section is faster with the NC work on the Piedmont corridor, could the trip time get down to 15-16 hours? That might be a viable daytime train route trip time. Someone should propose this to Amtrak as a LD train they could start after the Viewliner 2s start getting delivered, if they have the coach cars available. For VA, it would make a nice complement to the Lynchburger with a morning WAS to CVS time, but also connects to cities to the south.

An additional comment: the NC funding is to expand the Piedmont service to 4 daily round trips. For a daytime NYP/WAS-ATL train via the Crescent route, with 4 daily Piedmonts, it should be possible to schedule connections between the east and west bound Piedmonts and the north and south bound daytime trains at Greensboro. That would make for convenient Charlottesville-Lynchburg to/from Raleigh-Durham trips which would connect major college towns. Same goes for Atlanta and Clemson & Greenville NC to/from Raleigh-Durham. Those connections alone could make for a nice boost in ridership.

Richmond-Petersburg to/from Atlanta doesn't work from what I can see unless there is a 2nd later Carolinian.

The NYP/WAS to ATL daytime train would need a new name, since this is not the Crescent LD overnight train running to New Orleans. The Peachtree is good, but is there a name that would help sell it to NC and VA?

I think Richmond-Raleigh is a probable improvement a few years down the line, but it's going to require VA and NC to talk to one another because so much of the line is within VA. Actually, I think you're looking at Petersburg-Raleigh being the big gap...Richmond-Petersburg will probably get some marginal improvements in connection with the Richmond-Norfolk service.

More than NYP-ATL, though, I think a solid higher-speed corridor has positive implications for the Silvers (where I can see an hour or two coming off easily just given the sheer distances being covered). Considering that I think the Silver Palm will come back when equipment permits (the Silvers added 15,000 riders in 2009, and combined ridership on them is up from 620k in 200 to 745k in three years...and taken together, they were one of only five items to beat ridership projections in '09, and the Meteor was the only service to beat revenue projections in '09), improvements here should give Amtrak an increasingly solid route.

afigg: That's a good point, especially if they can get something going in near Blacksburg, VA (I think Tech is the largest school in VA by numbers). It's just a shame we can't get a connector between CVS and RVR to complement things...but I do recognize the problem there.

As to names...how about the "Blue Ridge Special" (perhaps with a blue plate special in the cafe...j/k)? That'll sell in VA, at least.

Bill Haithcoat said:

Condensed schedules January 1956

. . . .

NORTHBOUND

crescent lv nol 11 pm, lv atl 1.45pm ar wash 3.15 am ar nyc 9.15 am

. . . . .

peach queen (did not come from nol) lv atl 1.55 pm, ar wash 6,45 am ar nyc 10.55 am

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While there are a number of explanatory comments that could be made on the Southern's scedules of that time, I am limiting myself to one.

The very close timing out of Atlanta is no accident, and is not illogical. The Crescent was sleeping cars only north of Atlanta, but not south of it. Passengers in coaches from points southwest of Atlanta were not left stranded in Atlanta. Instead, they got on the Peach Queen which left shortly behind the Crescent and followed it all the way north, at an increasing distance due to its more numerous stops and lower status. Although both trains were shown as First Class in the employee timetable, some trains were more equal than others. Delay to the Crescent or Southerner approached being inexcusable. Delaying the Peach Queen would not get the same level of unplesant reaction from top management.

Anderson said:

GaSteve said:

AlanB said:

Actually I'd go the other way, sort of. I'd kill off the New Orleans end totally. The ridership isn't there.

Just run a Palmetto like train between NY and Atlanta.

Click to expand...

I agree with that strategy. I don't think the second frequency was/would ever be considered for the whole NYP/NOL route.

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I think they need to either keep the ATL-NOL route or reinstate something from the East Coast to NOL. I hate to say this, but killing an East Coast-NOL connection will probably have nasty ripple effects for the Sunset Limited.

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I seem to have created some confusion with my post, so let me clarify things. I'm not suggesting killing off the existing Crescent's run to New Orleans.

I was suggesting that the OP, Matt, kill the ATL-NOL section off of his proposal for a second train. The Crescent remains as is, but the proposed second train should not run to New Orleans. If the second train does anything beyond Atlanta, then it should be George's idea of turning it into the long ago proposed Crescent Star to Texas.

I also agree with the idea,, but in my opinion, just do a Washington to Atlanta daily Superliner train with two sets of equipment.

Start out with two SL coahes, a CCC and a sightseer. (4 cars total - and one engine). And keep in simple - just use the NS mainline. Keep in mind there are 8 million people in North Carolina - and the current overnight Crescent schedule is really bad in NC. This would tap into those 8 million NC residents. Even Raleigh is nearby to Greensboro - with 2 or 3 connecting trains every day (Raleigh-Durham is located about 90 miles Southeast of Greensboro, NC). In other words, most of the 8,000,000 NC residents would live close or at least, in reasonable distance to a stop. Just add convenient times (unlike the Crescent). *Plus - North Carolina really promotes train travel. They have upgraded so many stations in their state (very nice facilities).

And time the schedule to try and connect with Acela Express trains in Washington. Not sure if that could be done?

I like the WAS-ATL idea, but the problem is that 750-mile limit for requiring state funding. Getting over that is hard without an extension that jeopardizes using the Superliners.

Now, I'll agree that you might be able to get NC to kick in some if this were set up as an extended version of one of NC's subsidized services...but they probably won't fork over for all of it. VA is a stickier proposition at the moment because of the Richmond-Norfolk project and the already extant funding for the Lynchburger and the extra RVR-WAS run...though I still haven't figured why Amtrak needs a subsidy for the Lynchburger, particularly if the travel numbers rise at all for 2011 given the revenue versus operating cost situation there (what was the net margin on that run? $4 million?). VA can at least make a sane claim to having a lot of irons in the fire already amid a tight budget situation...and the route south of Petersburg is sparsely populated while in VA, so they can't make the "improved service" claims they could with the other lines.

The total shame of a pax depleted Crescent south of Atlanta/north out of NOL lays completely in Amtrak's lap. The Southern Railway took out full page ads in southern newspapers to promote the Crescent. I haven't seen a Crescent ad in over 10 years (yeah,I know Amtrak advertises nationally but not in the NOL/ATL specific market.) It costs a bundle to run this train into NOL; maybe that's why the Southern truncated it in Birmingham four days a week before Amtrak's birthday.

Anderson said:

I like the WAS-ATL idea, but the problem is that 750-mile limit for requiring state funding. Getting over that is hard without an extension that jeopardizes using the Superliners.

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Here's an idea for getting around the 750-mile requirement, having a WAS-ATL daytime train that also provides a one-seat ride up the corridor to NYP (BOS even).

67 departs BOS around when it normally does, with electric power, ATL-baggage, ATL-coaches, NPN-coaches, NPN-cafe, NPN-sleeper, NPN-baggage. At WAS (a bit before 7 AM), split the train between the ATL and NPN coaches, put diesel power on the NPN section, and send it to NPN as train 467. Put diesel power on the head of the ATL section and connect additional ATL-coaches and ATL-diner-lite (no ATL-sleeper for daylight run) to the rear; leave WAS by 7:30 AM for ATL still labeled as train 67. Arrive in ATL in the late evening along the Crescent route. For 66, just run the reverse (cutting off some ATL-WAS-only cars in WAS, adding 467 from NPN in WAS) up to BOS.

This way you've got the new train over 750 miles, you've got the diner-lite easily serviced in WAS along with coaches freed up for service elsewhere, and the old 66/67 continuation to NPN continues (just relabeled as a stub train from WAS).

When I listed the Southern RR trains in post 14, I failed to think about the Silver Comet. That was a train which went from NYC to WAS on the Pennsylvania, WAS to Richmond on the Richmond Fredericksburg and Potomac. South of there it went to Atlanta and Birmingham on the Seaboard RR. It was a sister train to the Silver Meteor and the Silver Star. And like those two Silvers, plus the Crescent and Southerner all were stainless steel streamliners. In other words,"good" trains.

Here is a schedule from October 1966.

SOUTHBOUND

lv NYC 11 am, lv WAS 3.20 pm lv richmond 5.45, lv petersburg 6.30, lv raleigh 9.10 pm lv hamlet 11.40pm lv athens, GA,(University of Georgia) 4.59 am,lv Emory university 6.10 am, lv atlanta 7 am ar birmingham 9.50 am

NORTHBOUND

lv bimingham 1.35 pm lv atlanta 6.40 pm lv emory univrsity, 7.04pm lv Athens, 8.10 pm. lv hamlet 1.40 am

raleigh 3.50 am lv petersburg 6.15 am richmond ar 7,05 am ar wasington 9.20 ar nyc 2 pm

Hamlet,NC is where the Seaboard line split going to Florida and going to ATL/ BHM.

There were a couple of nameless all stops local trains on this route, scarcely worth mentioning. The Silver Comet was discontinued about 1969 I think. The other two were already gone.

The tracks between atlanta and Birmingham are abandoned.They went through Rockmart and Cedartown as opposed to the Southern route via Anniston.

As I have mentioned ever so often that is now a walking, hiking. cycling,pick nicking rails and trails type of thing known as the "Silver Comet Trail". It was opened up quite a few years after the trains were gone,maybe the late 80's. It gets a lot of publicity locally. Though there was a murder on the Silver Comet trail about a year ago it still has a safe reputation, so far as I know.

Anderson said:

I like the WAS-ATL idea, but the problem is that 750-mile limit for requiring state funding. Getting over that is hard without an extension that jeopardizes using the Superliners.

Now, I'll agree that you might be able to get NC to kick in some if this were set up as an extended version of one of NC's subsidized services...but they probably won't fork over for all of it. VA is a stickier proposition at the moment because of the Richmond-Norfolk project and the already extant funding for the Lynchburger and the extra RVR-WAS run...though I still haven't figured why Amtrak needs a subsidy for the Lynchburger, particularly if the travel numbers rise at all for 2011 given the revenue versus operating cost situation there (what was the net margin on that run? $4 million?). VA can at least make a sane claim to having a lot of irons in the fire already amid a tight budget situation...and the route south of Petersburg is sparsely populated while in VA, so they can't make the "improved service" claims they could with the other lines.

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As far as state funding is concerned, forget about anything coming from Georgia, or South Carolina for that matter. Their DOTs are still firmly stuck in the Dept of Highways mode.