Viewliner Order Option

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Ben

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In Amtrak's 130 Viewliner car order, there is an option for 70 more of the same type of cars. Why couldn't these be coach cars instead to supplement the sleepers/diners/baggage cars?
 
because replacing single level coaches isn't on Amtrak's high priority list. There are enough Amfleets to go around at the moment. Plus that would require them creating a new design, and probably wouldn't go so well with the Viewliner modular system.
 
Amtrak has a published fleet replacement plan. See the document Amtrak Fleet Strategy. In addition, Amtrak has a growth plan which is described in various documents coming out of PRIAA route specific study and other joint projects with states, some of which can be found on this page, and other under various state DoT pages.

The actual procurement takes both into account. As you will notice in the fleet strategy document, the most urgent items for replacement currently are the Heritage cars and the Pacific Parlor cars, followed by the Metroliner Cab cars. On the locomotive side the most urgent ones are the AEM-7s.

The current car order handles the Heritage cars and some growth on top of it, specially in Sleepers and Dorm capacity, which makes sense since those are high revenue earning equipment.

The current locomotive order handles the situation with electric locomotives in its entirety replacing all AEM-7's and HHP-8s and providing for a small growth.

There is a Draft standard Single Level Car Design that has been published, and will be finalized sometime soon. This presumably will form the basis for large single level Coach order to start replacening the Amfleet Is, and with them will come the replacement for the Amfleet/Metroliner Cab Cars too, if they choose to order cab cars in kind (my surmise). An alternative is to convert the AEM-7s taken out of service as the new Siemens Sprinters start arriving, into cab cars. In any case the Amfleet I replacement order will need to be placed in the next year or two and will probably start coming in 2014 onwards if such can be funded.

Anyway, this is just to give all an idea on how the current orders fit into a broader scheme of things and how these orders are not just a set of random things that are being ordered without any rhyme or reason, in this particular order.

Hope that helps and informs, more than it confuses.
 
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Because any order for single level coach cars is going to need direct federal funding in combination with orders placed by states to support expanded corridor services. Ohio, for example, was supposed to order new equipment to support the 3C service. I think Iowa is expected to order new equipment as part of the $230 million FY2010 HSIPR award for the Iowa City - Chicago route. Illinois is likely to need new equipment if they want to expand services on the Chicago-St. Louis or the other Illinois corridors.

If I recall correctly, after the Viewliner 2 order for the LD trains and the ACS-64 electric locomotive order, Amtrak has identified their next most pressing need as ordering 150 bi-level cars. California did get $100 million in the recent FY10 grants to buy ~40 bi-level coaches and 6 locomotives for the Surfliner & San Joaquin services. The mid-West states and Amtrak may team with the California order for bi-level coach cars and Amtrak work to get some Superliner 3s as part of the order. Or the mid-West states may order Talgo trainsets instead, although the whole mess with Wisconsin will complicate going that route.

The single level coach fleet of Amfleet 1s and 2s, which will see 60 Amfleets returned to service and many cars undergoing overhauls, is in better shape. Amtrak management, I'm imagine, would like to order some single level coach cars to expand the east coast service capacity, but any order will have to wait until there are funds available. That may be a while.
 
Because any order for single level coach cars is going to need direct federal funding in combination with orders placed by states to support expanded corridor services. Ohio, for example, was supposed to order new equipment to support the 3C service. I think Iowa is expected to order new equipment as part of the $230 million FY2010 HSIPR award for the Iowa City - Chicago route. Illinois is likely to need new equipment if they want to expand services on the Chicago-St. Louis or the other Illinois corridors.

If I recall correctly, after the Viewliner 2 order for the LD trains and the ACS-64 electric locomotive order, Amtrak has identified their next most pressing need as ordering 150 bi-level cars. California did get $100 million in the recent FY10 grants to buy ~40 bi-level coaches and 6 locomotives for the Surfliner & San Joaquin services. The mid-West states and Amtrak may team with the California order for bi-level coach cars and Amtrak work to get some Superliner 3s as part of the order. Or the mid-West states may order Talgo trainsets instead, although the whole mess with Wisconsin will complicate going that route.
The short haul bi-level car order is mostly to deal with service expansion, and are in general not the Superliner replacement that the Fleet Plan talks about, though some of those will help release Superliner Coaches from short haul runs to beef up consists of LD Superliner trains. They are supposed to be mostly funded by state supported corridor initiatives.
 
I hadn't heard of any idea to convert AEM-7s into cab cars.
I agree. The AEM-7s gutted would be light as a feather, even if you try to weigh it down. Besides, you'd be turning them into a non-revenue piece of equipment. At least with a cab car you have 70 or so revenue seats.
 
Those 130 cars should cover all the Heritage fleet, plus more. So with all that covered, why would the 70 option cars be still the same type? It would seem easy to put seats in them instead of sleeping compartments. If those 70 cars were coaches, entire trainsets could be Viewliners. The Amfleet IIs replaced could go towards replacing the Amfleet Is. The Capitol Limited and City of New Orleans could be replaced with these Viewliner trainsets, releasing Superliners to other long-distance trains.
 
Those 130 cars should cover all the Heritage fleet, plus more. So with all that covered, why would the 70 option cars be still the same type? It would seem easy to put seats in them instead of sleeping compartments. If those 70 cars were coaches, entire trainsets could be Viewliners. The Amfleet IIs replaced could go towards replacing the Amfleet Is. The Capitol Limited and City of New Orleans could be replaced with these Viewliner trainsets, releasing Superliners to other long-distance trains.
As jis (and others) mentioned when this question was asked last week, Amtrak's fleet strategy plan (see his post for the link) details the order in which Amtrak intends to replace equipment and supplement existing equipment with additional pieces. (And, it should be noted, the desire for all-Viewliner trainsets is nowhere to be found in the planning.) After the Heritage equipment is replaced, and if funding is available, adding additional sleeping cars to single-level trains comes as a higher priority than replacing/supplementing coach cars on single-level trains.
 
Because the sleepers regularly sell out and Amtrak needs more sleeping cars?
More like with the 130 order you'll just barely bring the Eastern system to the point where it can function without extra strain of equip shortages. If we got 70 more of the same type we might actually be able to get a new train out of the ground. You could, hypothetically, make the CL single-level to free up its SL consists if you want to bring back, say, the Desert Wind-- or just use it to bring back the Silver Palm and maybe an abandoned route. I know the CL plan is to quasi resurrect the Three Rivers, but you could just do it all the way if you vary the stops in Ohio just a bit-- Hudson (Akron/Kent) and maybe Youngstown.
 
Because the sleepers regularly sell out and Amtrak needs more sleeping cars?
More like with the 130 order you'll just barely bring the Eastern system to the point where it can function without extra strain of equip shortages. If we got 70 more of the same type we might actually be able to get a new train out of the ground. You could, hypothetically, make the CL single-level to free up its SL consists if you want to bring back, say, the Desert Wind-- or just use it to bring back the Silver Palm and maybe an abandoned route. I know the CL plan is to quasi resurrect the Three Rivers, but you could just do it all the way if you vary the stops in Ohio just a bit-- Hudson (Akron/Kent) and maybe Youngstown.
That's my point. Do they have enough Amfleet IIs to start new trains? How can you make the CL single-level if you don't have enough coaches to supplement the Viewliner sleepers/diners?
 
That's my point. Do they have enough Amfleet IIs to start new trains? How can you make the CL single-level if you don't have enough coaches to supplement the Viewliner sleepers/diners?
My guess is that at least initially they will augment coach capacity on LD trains using Amfleet Is that will be used for short haul passengers, of which there are many, on the LD trains. So instead of getting 4 Amfleet IIs they will get 3 Amfleet IIs and 1 Amfleet I for example. They will also probably create a pool of state funded cars that can be assigned to LD trains passing through the state in question.

Here is an excerpt from the front material of the Viewliner II RFP which includes the 70 options.

PURCHASE OF "VIEWLINER 2" LONG-DISTANCE SINGLE-LEVEL PASSENGER CARS

RFP# X-047-9167-001

INTRODUCTION:

Amtrak intends to issue a competitive Request for Proposal for a vendor to

design, manufacture and deliver 130 "Viewliner 2" Long Distance Single-Level

Passenger Cars, with an option for Amtrak to purchase up to an additional 70

cars. The "Viewliner 2" rolling stock which is fully described in the

Technical Specifications, will be used as Amtrak passenger trains, primarily

in long-distance service, but capable of operating anywhere within Amtrak's

system. There are four (4) "Viewliner 2" car types: Diners, Sleepers,

Baggage-Dorms and Baggage cars. The "Viewliner 2" cars will be modeled on

the concept of the Amtrak "Viewliner 1" cars.
The RFP covers only 4 car types as spelled out, and notice that there are no Coaches in that list. So any cars that are acquired through this RFP including the additional options cars, will not have any Coaches in them. That will involve modification of the RFP and re-negotiation of prices.

Secondly, the Coach order if and when it happens will be based on the new single level car standard design that is under development, and potentially, not the Viewliner II design. Though it could turn out eventually that the Viewliner design with a few minor tweaks is compliant with the new single level car standard design.

And no, notwithstanding the great misguided desire in this thread to convert the CL to a single level train, no one that is actually in a position to do something about it is considering that as an option. The only Superliner related thing that has been discussed for eastern LDs is converting the Cardinal into a Superliner train, and that is currently out of favor.

As far as new trains go, the Silver Palm by way of FEC to Miami and the resurrected Broadway Limited (though not on its original route) appear to be two distinct possibilities. Of course in order for that to happen several of the longer distance day trains will loose at least some of their Amfleet IIs.
 
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IIRC isn't there an RFP out there for coaches for single level cars for short distance trains? It seems like using this order you could put it out there to make some cars comfortable for medium distance trips like the Pennsylvanian, Vermonter, Maple Leaf, Carolinian, etc...
 
IIRC isn't there an RFP out there for coaches for single level cars for short distance trains? It seems like using this order you could put it out there to make some cars comfortable for medium distance trips like the Pennsylvanian, Vermonter, Maple Leaf, Carolinian, etc...
AFAIK, there is no RFP out for single level Coaches from Amtrak. The specification for such is currently in the draft stage.
 
From what I've heard, within Amtrak there is considerable debate as to what the new Single Levels will be. There are three ideas that I've personally heard of: 1) A car substantially based on the design of the Acela sets, but of lighter construction- essentially an LRC. 2) A smooth-sided modification of the Viewliner's basic design, but with a single row of large windows (ala Acela) and (obviously) two sets of vestibules. 3) A totally new design that reflects the Acela in shape but is based on neither the engineering of the LRC (as the Acela is) nor based on Amtrak's existing Viewliner design.

Sense would dictate the first two options, but Amtrak has been known to reinvent the wheel pointlessly.
 
This may sound dumb, but wouldn't the Viewliner-based option make more sense for places like Hialeah that already know how to maintain the Viewliner?
 
From what I've heard, within Amtrak there is considerable debate as to what the new Single Levels will be. There are three ideas that I've personally heard of: 1) A car substantially based on the design of the Acela sets, but of lighter construction- essentially an LRC. 2) A smooth-sided modification of the Viewliner's basic design, but with a single row of large windows (ala Acela) and (obviously) two sets of vestibules. 3) A totally new design that reflects the Acela in shape but is based on neither the engineering of the LRC (as the Acela is) nor based on Amtrak's existing Viewliner design.

Sense would dictate the first two options, but Amtrak has been known to reinvent the wheel pointlessly.

How light can you make the cars without running up against FRA regulations? The Acela is amazingly overweight due to crash-survival regulations; would new long-distance cars be built to the same specs, or are they less stringent, since LD trains go slower, generally 79 mph maximum?
 
How light can you make the cars without running up against FRA regulations? The Acela is amazingly overweight due to crash-survival regulations; would new long-distance cars be built to the same specs, or are they less stringent, since LD trains go slower, generally 79 mph maximum?
The question is about single level coaches which will be spec'ed to be capable of 125 mph operation. The Viewliner 2s will run at 125 mph when on the NEC. The LD and corridor trains will run at 110 mph elsewhere as the corridors are upgraded. The cars will have to meet FRA requirements. Amtrak and the prospective manufacturers will have to work out with the FRA on how to meet those requirements.

But realistically any order of new single level coach cars is likely a ways off.
 
Let me throw the disclaimer up that I am NOT an expert or authority on railroad crash standards.

But as I understand it, there are two crash standards, Tier I, and Tier II. I think the cutoff is 125mph, anything faster has to comply with Tier II. Now from what I've read, the crash standards aren't so much weight as they are strength, and the only way to achieve that is to use much more materials, which make the cars heavier.

Again, I'm not an expert, so i might have missed something there.
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again... what is wrong with the Amfleet II's that they need to be replaced? I've ridden on them plenty of times and they seem just fine...
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again... what is wrong with the Amfleet II's that they need to be replaced? I've ridden on them plenty of times and they seem just fine...
Is a problem that there aren't enough of them?

Maybe they should go for Viewliner coaches (whatever they happen to be) for the long distance overnight trains (so they had an all-Viewliner consist), and use the amfleets for day trains.
 
This may sound dumb, but wouldn't the Viewliner-based option make more sense for places like Hialeah that already know how to maintain the Viewliner?
Suffice it to say that there is very little to maintain in the basic body shell, which what the discussion of the base design is all about. The interior can be equipped with the same seats, toilets and luggage racks, and even HVAC packs, irrespective of which shell is used, specially in case of a Coach. In any case the wheelsets are going to be somewhat different from the current Viewliner ones, is what I have heard, which is one part that does need maintenance.

I am sure the folks in Hialeah can figure out how to maintain a group of 300 new cars, just like they did with the Viewliners for only 50 new cars.
 
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I suppose this wasn't in the RFP either, but I'd love to see some sort of "sightseer" car for the single-level trains. Perhaps with the viewliner shells, if they have the double windows like the current sleepers do, the diners might have decent views, but it's still not really a lounge.
 
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