Wisconsin Talgos?

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My understanding is that two talgo trains are ordered, and will be built. At some point in the next two years, they will operate on the Chicago to Milwaukee service. Additionally, Washington or Oregon, also ordered Talgos, and these too will be built and delivered.

After this, if Wisconsin chooses not to have high speed rail to Madison, then the Talgo plant would close, and they would set up shop some place else or not at all.
 
:angry2: Excellent way to provide Jobs, these T-Publicans really care about working people no, bet most folks in Ohio and Wisconsin will end up wishing they had NYs Gov. elect or had voted Democratic when all is said and done! :help:
 
:angry2: :angry2: :angry2: The post author is essentially correct. the first couple of sets of Talgos would be built, then the plant would close. Part of the reason the plant was located in MKE was because of the Wisconsin segment of the MWRRI, between Saint Paul and Chicago. The WI governor-Elect, Walker, wants to kill the train service. Without the train service, there is no need for Talgo to locate in MKE. Ergo, Talgo is threatening to move, while Mr. Walker wants Talgo to remain. Walker wants it both ways, it would seem.
 
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:angry2: Excellent way to provide Jobs, these T-Publicans really care about working people no, bet most folks in Ohio and Wisconsin will end up wishing they had NYs Gov. elect or had voted Democratic when all is said and done! :help:

I think the Madison-Milwaukee line was a good idea, but to argue that 800 million dollar investment will provide 50-100 long term jobs is the worst argument I have ever heard, and if those were the type of arguments made its no wonder that it was shutdown.
 
:angry2: :angry2: :angry2: The post author is essentially correct. the first couple of sets of Talgos would be built, then the plant would close. Part of the reason the plant was located in MKE was because of the Wisconsin segment of the MWRRI, between Saint Paul and Chicago. The WI governor-Elect, Walker, wants to kill the train service. Without the train service, there is no need for Talgo to locate in MKE. Ergo, Talgo is threatening to move, while Mr. Walker wants Talgo to remain. Walker wants it both ways, it would seem.

That is what I understand too. Thanks for the update. I will visite cheese head land more once you have coool trains.
 
but to argue that 800 million dollar investment will provide 50-100 long term jobs is the worst argument I have ever heard
And to build a new airport terminal for 800 million (and use the same runways) or resurface a road and provide NO new jobs is a good investment?
huh.gif
How about all the tourism dollars that it may bring?
huh.gif
Or the commuters (and most of them have cars
rolleyes.gif
) that it will get off the road - and the Government will not have to spend money to resurface the highways or to build new lanes or roads?
huh.gif


rolleyes.gif
 
:angry2: Excellent way to provide Jobs, these T-Publicans really care about working people no, bet most folks in Ohio and Wisconsin will end up wishing they had NYs Gov. elect or had voted Democratic when all is said and done! :help:

I think the Madison-Milwaukee line was a good idea, but to argue that 800 million dollar investment will provide 50-100 long term jobs is the worst argument I have ever heard, and if those were the type of arguments made its no wonder that it was shutdown.
Plus another hundred working the plant, another hundred finishing the track, another hundred building the plant, another hundred providing the steel that makes the tracks and the cars, another hundred to transport the parts, ect. Ect.

Of course that's rhetoric, the point I am making is that for every one job that is created there's another dozen jobs affected in a positive manner.
 
Who's paying for the trains? I expect Oregon/Washington are putting up funding for their two sets, but what about the Wisconsin ones? Are those from stimulus money? Somehow I can't see Amtrak willingly parting with the money for new trains, when the Hiawath doesn't have nearly as immediate problems as a lot of other routes, and I'm not optimistic about Walker having Wisconsin pay for them.
 
:angry2: Excellent way to provide Jobs, these T-Publicans really care about working people no, bet most folks in Ohio and Wisconsin will end up wishing they had NYs Gov. elect or had voted Democratic when all is said and done! :help:
Well we do live in a democracy where the majority makes the rules. The apparent problem is that the marjority do not perceive there is value in having this route and these trainsets built. As much as I hate to say it, IMHO the cost of travel by car is too cheap. We spend billions and billions of dollars to insure we have relatively cheap oil. We spend more billions on the interstate highway system. If these billions of dollars were applied to the cost of driving a car the costs would be much higher which makes alternative means of transportation (trains as an example) more desirable and voters would demand alternatives.

Just my opinion!
 
but to argue that 800 million dollar investment will provide 50-100 long term jobs is the worst argument I have ever heard
And to build a new airport terminal for 800 million (and use the same runways) or resurface a road and provide NO new jobs is a good investment?
huh.gif
How about all the tourism dollars that it may bring?
huh.gif
Or the commuters (and most of them have cars
rolleyes.gif
) that it will get off the road - and the Government will not have to spend money to resurface the highways or to build new lanes or roads?
huh.gif


rolleyes.gif
I think what I was trying to say got a bit twisted. Also one should always be careful not to tick of the_traveler :p

What I meant to say was that 50-100 jobs for that line is a bad reason in itself. This line would have done much more than that including sparking development projects near stations, lowering the cost to do business between these cities and Chicago, and as ALC stated many indirect jobs.

I think we have to ask ourselves why many conservatives are against rail projects while many (like many AU members) do. I think a lot of it has to do with how its phrased. Conservatives typically don't like the concept of the Gov providing money for things often seen as private services such as transportation. On the other hand, if you could argue that this is not a subsidy but an investment, that might change minds.

The #1 argument I heard from Walker was not the 800M to build the line but the 7.5M a year or so to support it. The one counter I never heard was how much estimated increased tax revenue would come from the line. Property values around stations going up; companies doing more business instate; tourists traveling and spending money. If someone would have tried to add all these up and if it came to more than 7.5M a year for the state of WI that would have shutdown many objections and turned it from a big gov handout to a smart investment the state economy.
 
If the population of Wisconsin is greater than 7.5 million, that's one dollar per person per year. That is a very low number, I wonder how much per person per year Wisconsin spends on roads or airports...
 
The 7.5 Million per year is about equal to building 7.5 MILES of roads!
$1 million per mile for highways? Maybe in 1970. Multiply that by ten today - much more if it isn't a simple job. $1 million a mile does not even buy a bike path today - literally.

From an article about the proposed Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit line (SMART, north of San Francisco) in the Santa Rosa Press Democrat, 11/3/10:

...Another key element in the funding equation is a 70-mile bike path that could cost $99 million. The promise of the bicycle route was a key factor in gaining the political support to win passage in the two counties by a two-thirds vote.
Article.

That $99 million bike path is a major reason the plans are being down-sized.
 
I never said 7.5M was a good reason :blink: ... just how to retort it.

Also I have a few questions also related to this thread.

1. Only two Talgos for the CHI-MKE route?

2. I noticed though the power of Google ^_^ that their seemed to be a small section of single track left on this route. Will that change, and will their be other changes like grade crossings?

3. By how much is this expected to cut the travel time?
 
Only two for now, the success or failure would have determined further orders from Wisconsin. It would have been great, had it worked, Ohio or Indiana or whoever might have ordered more train sets, and the jobs would still have been Wisconsin's.

Nothing will change unless the new government changes their stance on the issue.
 
The state DOT and other advocates did a horrible job of selling this to the public. They really needed to correct a lot of the misinformation out there.

For example, a quick google search turned up these two sites.

http://www.wsau.com/blogs/post/cconley/2010/nov/09/opinion-can-he-derail-train/

http://www.wisn.com/news/25527333/detail.html

Now, I'm not saying that either deserves credibility, but what is noted on these pages is what I have also heard or read many places regarding this topic. People think that riding the train will be expensive.

One really has to dig through tons of data to even get any kind of information on the actual fares. The best I could find, after several minutes of web searching, was this page: http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/recovery/docs/rail-grant-13.pdf

On page 16 of the PDF, they mention revenue per passenger-mile ranging between $0.20 and $0.25. Extrapolating that along the roughly 70-mile route (I forget the exact length) gives you a one-way fare of approximately $14-18.

Yet, one blogger says the cost will be $30-$100! I can't imagine anyone in their right mind would seriously propose a $100 fare for such a short trip. If they did, then I guess it's no wonder the project failed to garner much public support.

Even if the $30 fare is a round-trip number, and the $100 figure is completely fabricated, it should have been the DOT's responsibility to publish, in easy-to-read format, numbers correcting these popular misconceptions (and, no, searching through dozens of charts on several PDFs, some of which were 200+ pages long, does not constitute correcting misconceptions). I know these misconceptions exist, not because of a couple of web pages that I happened to find while doing a random web search, but also by reading comments following many news articles on the project, and also from a little bit of word-of-mouth that I've heard others say.

They also needed to broadcast the ridership estimates more, to counter the "nobody will ride it" claims that were all over the place. "Nobody will ride it" is the state motto in Wisconsin (you hear it all the time when rail is mentioned, both local and intercity).

Secondly, some of the proposed schedules were absolutely laughable. Under one scenario, those that developed the timetable would have the trains turning in Madison in NINE minutes. You can barely get a trainload of people off in that amount of time, let alone get a new set of passengers boarded and run the necessary brake tests and whatnot. In the words of a former boss of mine, where they nucking futs?

Lastly, in my opinion (and that of many others that I know who work in the industry), the choice of Talgo was one of the dumbest moves they made. They will be operating orphaned equipment while everyone else goes with the standard intercity equipment. The Talgos require a separate maintenance facility, which will result in higher costs. They are not interchangeable with anything else. For a segregated operation, it wouldn't really matter that much. But, considering that at one end of the route you have a large passenger rail terminal with trains from all over, equipment interchangeability would be very useful.

The main benefit of the Talgo equipment is its tilt technology, allowing higher speeds on curves. My 12-inch ruler has more curves than the route between Chicago and Milwaukee. The only place I could possibly think where a tilt train would do you any good on that route is a small stretch north of Milwaukee Airport where the speed currently drops from 79 all the way down to 70.

Between Milwaukee and Madison, there are a few more curves, but still, I doubt there's enough to make it worth it to spend tons of money on fixed consist trains that will have no more capacity than the current fleet (and, thus, no possibility for capacity expansion).

End of rant for now.
 
Only two for now, the success or failure would have determined further orders from Wisconsin. It would have been great, had it worked, Ohio or Indiana or whoever might have ordered more train sets, and the jobs would still have been Wisconsin's.

Nothing will change unless the new government changes their stance on the issue.
Just to be clear, Talgo has an order for 2 trainsets for Wisconsin right now. They also have an order for 2 trainsets for the Cascades service. Finally, once the project got underway to bring back the Madison-MKE segment, that would have resulted in another order of 2 trainsets for Wisconsin. Those latter two trainsets are now up in the air, with things leaning towards the no order side of the scale.
 
If the population of Wisconsin is greater than 7.5 million, that's one dollar per person per year. That is a very low number, I wonder how much per person per year Wisconsin spends on roads or airports...
Population of Wisconsin is a little over 5.5 million, so still not much per person per year.
 
I never said 7.5M was a good reason
blink.gif
... just how to retort it.

Also I have a few questions also related to this thread.

1. Only two Talgos for the CHI-MKE route?

2. I noticed though the power of Google
happy.gif
that their seemed to be a small section of single track left on this route. Will that change, and will their be other changes like grade crossings?

3. By how much is this expected to cut the travel time?
1. Yes, only two trainsets are needed for the current CHI-MKE Hiawatha schedule.

2. The CHI-MKE route is entirely 2 (or more) tracks.
 
"The Talgos require a separate maintenance facility, which will result in higher costs. They are not interchangeable with anything else."

Trogdor is quite correct,

and I'm making a bold prediction: a few years from now, after the Talgo Trains are broken in on the Hiawatha line, Amtrak will quietly move both trainsets out west (Oregon-Washington) and then work a deal with Wisconsin to use regular trainsets.
 
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Illinois Gov. Quinn has invited Talgo to move its new plant to Illinois and has asked the feds to send the Wisconsin money to Illinois for further high speed corridor development. If the people of Wisconsin want the anti-transit, anti-train Walker, then send the money where it will do some good, here in the Land of Lincoln.
 
:angry2: Excellent way to provide Jobs, these T-Publicans really care about working people no, bet most folks in Ohio and Wisconsin will end up wishing they had NYs Gov. elect or had voted Democratic when all is said and done! :help:
Well we do live in a democracy where the majority makes the rules. The apparent problem is that the marjority do not perceive there is value in having this route and these trainsets built. As much as I hate to say it, IMHO the cost of travel by car is too cheap. We spend billions and billions of dollars to insure we have relatively cheap oil. We spend more billions on the interstate highway system. If these billions of dollars were applied to the cost of driving a car the costs would be much higher which makes alternative means of transportation (trains as an example) more desirable and voters would demand alternatives.

Just my opinion!
We don't live in a true democracy. We elect representatives to make laws for us. And I don't think the majority voted the way they did because they didn't want trains. I'll bet trains was the last thing on their minds when they vote for a candidate. Many surveys taken throughout the years have proven that the general public wants more trains and I'll bet many of those vote conservative normally.

And just remember that last election day, 75% of local ballot measures on transportation passed, worth about $500 million.
 
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