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dlagrua, those estimates are all very well and good for you, someone who can do their own car maintainence. But for the average American who does not, let's use the IRS mileage rate of $0.50/mile. 817 miles of driving x $0.50 mile = $408.50.Now add in your (very conservative) hotel cost ($100) and food costs ($53) and the total cost of doing the trip, one way via car = $561.50. That makes that AT a pretty good buy for the averageAmerican

Those IRS mileage numbers are average, not factual or actual for more people. If you drive a nice used car as I do the per mile rates are less. Factoring in not doing my own work would have brought what was required on the car up only about $480.00 in the required repairs and maintenance over 40,000 miles or less than .02 per mile. So over 817 miles the cost of reapir and maintenance goes up about $16.50 thats insignificant.

As for lunch, you don't get lunch on the AutoTrain so that cost doesn't factor into the equation.
I never mentioned lunch, I used your own conservative estimates for breakfast and dinner and hotel. Although I'm still not sure where I can get a nice sit down breakfast for $15. Seriously, the last time I went to IHOP I spent more like $25 or $30 for breakfast with tip for me and my husband (coffee, orange juice, and an entree for both of us, that is all, and comparable to the diner breakfast on amtrak).

Additionally, the IRS rate takes into account the depreciating value of your car - and it does depreciate with every mile that you drive it. I think the IRS rate is pretty spot on for my vehicular costs.
 
OK folks I'll concede that the AutoTrain (if booked a bit early) is the better buy. If we go with the IRS per mile rate we do come closer to my figures which listed the gas expense separately. So 817 miles at .50 or .55 costs you $400, then add in the lodging food, (Tolls to get to Lorton etc) and dinner and the train is attractive. The big plus though is that you don't have the headache of driving 13 hours. The guy who drives the beat up jalopy and stays at Motel 6 will disagree with us though but I believe that s not indicative of most of us here.

We have taken six trips on the AutoTrain, so we obviously agree that this is the way to go. Whether the bedroom fare is a bit more more than driving/lodging or not hasn't factored in so far. At this point in life comfort and stress free transportation take precedence over hours behind the wheel. In the final analysis I'll agree with everything said on costs except for one. The AutoTrain breakfast is a "Continental" and as such is the most basic breakfast offered on any route. Its only worth maybe $5-$7 per person as they only give you coffee, juice, cereal, & rolls.
 
Wow, I didn't realize that the AT breakfast was only continental. Learn something new every day! I wonder why that breakfast is so sparse compared to the other LD routes?
 
The AutoTrain breakfast is a "Continental" and as such is the most basic breakfast offered on any route. Its only worth maybe $5-$7 per person as they only give you coffee, juice, cereal, & rolls.
They also have fruit, usually bananas; as well as bagels, muffins, & the aforementioned rolls.
 
Just adding a slightly different perspective here, and maybe the conversation can head off in a new direction. Because Amtrak is so heavily subsidized, one can ask what is the government's reason for doing so? I would suggest it is to help people get from A to B, especially in cases where there are no air connections. If indeed that is the reason (and I don't know if it is), then they achieve that admirably by providing reliable and comfortable coach service that is way more appealing than bus travel in most peoples' opinion. And they do so at a very reasonable cost. To my thinking, $148 from EMY to CHI plus meals is not bad for the quality of transportation offered.

OK, if that's the rationale for subsidizing Amtrak - providing basic reliable and comfortable transportation - then everything else Amtrak offers needs to be considered as optional upgrades and should be priced as such, i.e. as high as the market will bear. That's the only way a subsidized Amtrak can begin justifying offering those optional extras. They should be available only if they can reduce the taxpayers' expense to the maximum. Put another way, if the total capital cost and operating cost of 100 additional sleepers were to be more than offset by additional revenues, you bet there'd be more sleepers as soon as possible. But they'd still be sold at as high a price as the market will bear, at least until the need for subsidies was totally eliminated, because the taxpayers are not in the business of subsidizing more than the basic travel necessities.
 
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George,

Unfortunately the revenue from sleepers only covers the operating costs, there isn't enough left over to cover the capital costs of new cars. Which is of course why Amtrak must get Federal dollars to buy new cars.

But the sleepers at present do generate a small operating profit of about $40 Million in 2004; I suspect that number is higher now with the better revenue management practices currently in use. And there have been major changes to how revenue management handles the pricing of the sleepers in the last 6 years.

But returning to that sleeping car profit idea subsidizing coach, the USDOT Inspector General determined back in 2004 that on LD trains without sleepers the Federal subsidy of coach passengers was $0.1888. On trains with sleepers the Federal subsidy was $0.1817. So in effect because of the revenue generated by sleepers, Federal taxpayers paid an average of $0.1870 to subsidize coach travel in this country.

More info on those numbers can be found here.
 
George,
Unfortunately the revenue from sleepers only covers the operating costs, there isn't enough left over to cover the capital costs of new cars. Which is of course why Amtrak must get Federal dollars to buy new cars.

But the sleepers at present do generate a small operating profit of about $40 Million in 2004; I suspect that number is higher now with the better revenue management practices currently in use. And there have been major changes to how revenue management handles the pricing of the sleepers in the last 6 years.

But returning to that sleeping car profit idea subsidizing coach, the USDOT Inspector General determined back in 2004 that on LD trains without sleepers the Federal subsidy of coach passengers was $0.1888. On trains with sleepers the Federal subsidy was $0.1817. So in effect because of the revenue generated by sleepers, Federal taxpayers paid an average of $0.1870 to subsidize coach travel in this country.

More info on those numbers can be found here.
If I read you correctly, Alan, you are saying that sleeper OPERATIONS make a profit that brings down the cost of transporting coach passengers, but that if you factor in the capital cost of the sleepers, they lose money at current sleeper prices. If that's the case, and if the market won't bear sleeper prices sufficient to cover the capital costs, then Amrak shouldn't be offering sleepers, IF my theory about their mission is correct. So I must conclude congress gave Amtrak a bigger mission than just getting passengers from A to B in coach.
 
George,
Unfortunately the revenue from sleepers only covers the operating costs, there isn't enough left over to cover the capital costs of new cars. Which is of course why Amtrak must get Federal dollars to buy new cars.

But the sleepers at present do generate a small operating profit of about $40 Million in 2004; I suspect that number is higher now with the better revenue management practices currently in use. And there have been major changes to how revenue management handles the pricing of the sleepers in the last 6 years.

But returning to that sleeping car profit idea subsidizing coach, the USDOT Inspector General determined back in 2004 that on LD trains without sleepers the Federal subsidy of coach passengers was $0.1888. On trains with sleepers the Federal subsidy was $0.1817. So in effect because of the revenue generated by sleepers, Federal taxpayers paid an average of $0.1870 to subsidize coach travel in this country.

More info on those numbers can be found here.
If I read you correctly, Alan, you are saying that sleeper OPERATIONS make a profit that brings down the cost of transporting coach passengers, but that if you factor in the capital cost of the sleepers, they lose money at current sleeper prices. If that's the case, and if the market won't bear sleeper prices sufficient to cover the capital costs, then Amrak shouldn't be offering sleepers, IF my theory about their mission is correct. So I must conclude congress gave Amtrak a bigger mission than just getting passengers from A to B in coach.
Geroge,

That's an analysis of just one year which was how I was thinking about things. However, if Amtrak wasn't taking that $40M operating profit to help subsidize coach pax, then with train cars having a 40+ year life generally, Amtrak probably could have saved enough money to buy new sleepers.

The other issue here however is that we're also only talking about operating costs, overhead costs would take some of that $40M too. Just how much I have no idea, and therefore can only speculate as to whether or not there would be enough left to buy new cars.

However, my understanding of things is that Congress charged Amtrak with running a National rail network. They didn't specify coach or sleepers in that mandate. And without sleepers, there would be no dining car and quite possibly no cafe cars either. That would make coach only service very unattractive to most people.
 
I've mentioned this before ands will mention it again. Amtrak loses money on paper. Amtrak employs thousands of workers. These workers pay Federal Income tax and in many cases pay state income tax as well. Amtrak also serves to create 1000's jobs in support services and products like those working to provide waste services, fuel, and food deliveries. If you look at the big picture and all of the federal income tax that the federal government is taking in , Uncle Sam isn't doing too badly. Those "subsidies" that Amtrak gets are just the federal government giving back to Amtrak income taxes that they confiscated from their employees paychecks.

Amtrak also saves wear and tear on highways that saves the government money and is almost a "Green" form of transportation that has minimal effect on the environment.

Getting back to the sleeper and dining sevice; if Amtak did not offer it you can say goodbye to most of the long distance runs. Do you believe that many people would take the EB or CZ and ride for three days sitting up in a chair eating crackers? We wouldn't. As for cost of sleeper service, its already high, far higher than air travel. There is only a limit to how much Amtrak can charge before people say no thanks, and I believe they are already at that limit.
 
Your argument about Amtrak employees paying income taxes doesn't go very far.

Amtrak's annual budget (at least, as of a few years ago) is about $3 billion. If we were to assume that every last penny of that $3 billion were payroll costs (and, obviously, it isn't), and assume that every Amtrak employee paid 25% of that in taxes (in reality, it's likely less), the total federal income taxes paid would be $750 million.

The federal government's subsidy to Amtrak exceeds that by several hundred million dollars per year.

As far as the argument about Amtrak being green and reducing the wear on highways, it's technically true, but 1) most politicians don't care, and 2) the impact on highways (outside of a few short-distance corridors) is negligible. It probably wouldn't impact the actual lifespan of any of the highways. Don't get me wrong, there are many reasons that Amtrak should be subsidized and continue to exist, including providing people alternatives, and I do believe that highway budgets should be reduced, and highways through large cities should actually get smaller or be removed completely, but long-distance sleeping car trains in and of themselves aren't going to take a significant number of people off the highways.

Getting back to the sleeper and dining sevice; if Amtak did not offer it you can say goodbye to most of the long distance runs. Do you believe that many people would take the EB or CZ and ride for three days sitting up in a chair eating crackers?
Straw man argument. This topic isn't about eliminating sleeping car or food service, and nobody is proposing such.

As for cost of sleeper service, its already high, far higher than air travel. There is only a limit to how much Amtrak can charge before people say no thanks, and I believe they are already at that limit.
Again, they are at your limit. But given how quickly inventory is flying off the "shelves" so to speak, especially during peak time, and that most sleepers are full, somebody must still think they're a good deal.

So I must conclude congress gave Amtrak a bigger mission than just getting passengers from A to B in coach.
I think it's a fallacy to believe that congress has given Amtrak any mission at all. If they had, then there wouldn't be these large debates every year or two about whether or not we need Amtrak, whether or not Amtrak is doing its job or if they're just a waste of money, whether or not we should have long-distance trains, etc.

The closest to a "mission" Amtrak has been given by congress is to run trains (and, recently, the only real mission congress has been giving Amtrak has been to study the possibility of running trains). Amtrak has had to pretty much figure the rest out by itself.
 
Again, they are at your limit. But given how quickly inventory is flying off the "shelves" so to speak, especially during peak time, and that most sleepers are full, somebody must still think they're a good deal.
Yes the price of sleepers are at my limit but are you saying that other Amtrak travelers don't have the same concerns about cost as I do? Do we assume that the pockets of the Amtrak traveler is so deep that he just pays the price no matter what it is?

I would think not. The point is that Amtrak is but one means of long distance transportation. As such there are alternatives and unless it is assumed that there is no competition then Amtrak prices need to make sense.

At times the sleepers do sell out but I have been on trains where many sleepers were available. You may disagree but I still maintain that the prices of the bedrooms are at the highest level where they still can be sold. If we had sales data perhaps that would tell the story.
 
If nobody's buying the bedrooms at the high prices, Amtrak will lower the rates. This is the summer season, the mot popular time for travel, especially on the western trains.
 
I need everyone to not buy tickets for the Southwest Chief anytime after March 2, 2011. :rolleyes: Hopefully they will bring the prices down to reasonable. Right now they are releasing them at high bucket.
 
I still maintain that the prices of the bedrooms are at the highest level where they still can be sold.
I hope so. If they can sell them for a higher price and don't, Amtrak is foregoing revenue they can ill afford to lose.

Amtrak has access to their own sales statistics, and, despite all our Amtrak bashing, probably has a better handle on it that a few people on a board comparing their experience. At least they have data available to them, we do not. Supposition, speculation, and a few individual experiences are no substitute for data.

My own experience, having travelled over 100K miles on western LD sleepers, is that the load factor is consistently pretty high. So I seriously doubt they are overpriced. But I lack the data as well.
 
So -- a dumb question -- why doesn't Amtrak run more sleeper cars, especially on the popular routes like EB?
 
So -- a dumb question -- why doesn't Amtrak run more sleeper cars, especially on the popular routes like EB?
Including the transition-sleeper dorm cars used on various Amtrak routes, Amtrak has 201 active sleeping cars, and about 12 wrecks, most of them so far beyond fixing, contemplating fixing them would be farcical. They are currently working on fixing the ones that are simply uneconomical to fix. Yes, you read that right.

Of those 201 cars, I believe 10 of them are on rotating protection duty during peak periods, and another 15 are our of service for periodic maintenance. The rest of them are either currently out on the road, in the yard being cleaned, or sitting overnight preparing to go out the next day because scheduling prevents same day turns. Amtrak's system utilization of their sleepers is essentially 100%. And yes, those protection cars are very much needed.
 
If I were running Amtrak, I'd probably raise the bedroom prices as well....(as least on some routes)

I have been planning a trip for a family of 3.... (either 1 bedroom, or two roomettes)

Unfortunately, all bedroom types were completely sold out on 3 of the long-distance

routes during the two week period I was looking at, starting in late June to mid-July. :(
 
This whole discussion of pricing the rooms at whatever the market will pay overlooks one key political constraint. Suppose I'm a typical middle class taxpayer who wants to ride a train, but has no specific rail lust (unlike most of us). I go out, look at Amtrak services, and realize that the cost for sleeper accommodations is way higher than any hotel I'd ever stay at in my normal life. Ok, so I decide to fly (It's cheaper!) or drive.

Now fast forward to when someone says Amtrak doesn't pay it's own way and is a financial black hole. Having been stiffed in my effort to take the train, I probably will be thinking that Amtrak has absolutely no right to federal funding since their sleeper travel just caters to rich people who can afford $1200 for a sleeper. Why should I kick in any tax revenue to support something that doesn't do anything for "middle class Americans"?

I agree that Amtrak is probably right to utilize a revenue management profile to enhance revenues, and subsidization of variable costs from sleepers allows dining car services to remain on many trains. However, it does have to be kept in reason if we're going to maintain political support for trains going forward. Who is going to take the time to get involved and support enhanced / enlarged train service if it has no tangible connection to typical taxpayers?

In the meantime, we really need to be discussing getting more cars in service faster, and trying to have more than two sleepers on major long distance trains. That way, we would get the benefit of extra contribution margin on multiple cars, which is better for Amtrak than alienating major chunks of the traveling public.
 
Now fast forward to when someone says Amtrak doesn't pay it's own way and is a financial black hole. Having been stiffed in my effort to take the train, I probably will be thinking that Amtrak has absolutely no right to federal funding since their sleeper travel just caters to rich people who can afford $1200 for a sleeper. Why should I kick in any tax revenue to support something that doesn't do anything for "middle class Americans"?
I agree with you... but on the other hand, I don't expect to be able to buy a new Cadillac at 50% off MSRP

just because the U.S. taxpayers have bailed out GM. IIRC, the US government poured roughtly 60 billion

dollars into GM. 60 billion dollars is a little more than the total Federal subsidy to Amtrak for the next 15 to 20 years...

wait.... on second thought, I think that every American, as an indirect owner of GM, should be given a steep

discount when purchasing a GM vehicle! :D
 
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I need everyone to not buy tickets for the Southwest Chief anytime after March 2, 2011. :rolleyes: Hopefully they will bring the prices down to reasonable. Right now they are releasing them at high bucket.
Likewise, would everyone with a deluxe bedroom who paid high bucket for June EB travel cancel their reservation so I can find some space? LOL.
 
Now fast forward to when someone says Amtrak doesn't pay it's own way and is a financial black hole. Having been stiffed in my effort to take the train, I probably will be thinking that Amtrak has absolutely no right to federal funding since their sleeper travel just caters to rich people who can afford $1200 for a sleeper. Why should I kick in any tax revenue to support something that doesn't do anything for "middle class Americans"?
I agree with you... but on the other hand, I don't expect to be able to buy a new Cadillac at 50% off MSRP

just because the U.S. taxpayers have bailed out GM. IIRC, the US government poured roughtly 60 billion

dollars into GM. 60 billion dollars is a little more than the total Federal subsidy to Amtrak for the next 15 to 20 years...

wait.... on second thought, I think that every American, as an indirect owner of GM, should be given a steep

discount when purchasing a GM vehicle! :D
I don't think it's such an issue as offering a steep discount below cost, just don't go all nuts and turn all long distance trains into VIA's Canadian (on the pricing side - no danger of that on the service and amenity side...).

As for GM, I am afraid they've done too much discounting in the past, and not enough focus on quality and amenities. The wife has a Cadillac which she loves, we purchased a two year old car used, low mileage, and we've in under a year had four warranty repairs on it. The company and dealer have stood behind the car, and in truth it's a pleasure to drive on road trips. But in the same time, my little Honda Element (aka the Nerd Wagon) hasn't had anything other than oil changes and typical scheduled repairs, despite more mileage traveled. I hope that the government intervention buys the company the breathing room to make competitive product, almost all of our vehicles have been US made, and I'd like to keep it that way.
 
Now fast forward to when someone says Amtrak doesn't pay it's own way and is a financial black hole. Having been stiffed in my effort to take the train, I probably will be thinking that Amtrak has absolutely no right to federal funding since their sleeper travel just caters to rich people who can afford $1200 for a sleeper. Why should I kick in any tax revenue to support something that doesn't do anything for "middle class Americans"?
Did it ever occur to you that space might cost less if you book further in advance? There is no roomette that has a low bucket of $1200.

You do not suddenly know what you're talking about just because you are pissed that you didn't plan ahead.
 
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