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I am optomistic and if anything I would love to see the Silver Meteor extended to Boston then have the train split at Jacksonville with one section going to Tampa via Orlando and the other section to Miami via the FEC. Then keep the Silver Star and Palmetoo (Silver Palm the same). Also extending the Crescent to Texas would also seem like a good idea. I had never thought that the Kentucky Cardinal could just be run as a daylight train which would make sense. I also had no clue Louisville was served by a connecting bus. If we had more equipment making the Cardinal daily may also increse ridership. I'm still unsure about the Sunset Limited. What if one train left Miami in the morning arriving in New Olreans the next morning. We'll call that train the Gulf Coast Limited. The have a seperate train depart New Olreans in the afternoon arriving in Los Angeles 2 days late in the evening. We'll call that the Sunset Limited. This might cut back delays as one train will not being covering so many miles in one trip. Sorry if I've repeated anything someone else has stated.
 
Just for interest why extend the train to Boston, wouldn't this increase the amount of mileage which the train will have to cover to complete the journey.

Is their not enough passenger train already going over the northern passenger corridor?

Guy
 
Amfleet said:
I am optomistic and if anything I would love to see the Silver Meteor extended to Boston then have the train split at Jacksonville with one section going to Tampa via Orlando and the other section to Miami via the FEC. Then keep the Silver Star and Palmetoo (Silver Palm the same). Also extending the Crescent to Texas would also seem like a good idea. I had never thought that the Kentucky Cardinal could just be run as a daylight train which would make sense. I also had no clue Louisville was served by a connecting bus. If we had more equipment making the Cardinal daily may also increse ridership. I'm still unsure about the Sunset Limited. What if one train left Miami in the morning arriving in New Olreans the next morning. We'll call that train the Gulf Coast Limited. The have a seperate train depart New Olreans in the afternoon arriving in Los Angeles 2 days late in the evening. We'll call that the Sunset Limited. This might cut back delays as one train will not being covering so many miles in one trip. Sorry if I've repeated anything someone else has stated.
Or the New Train I'm proposing, which would run the Silver Star's route an then via the FEC and The Silver Meteor could run. This Way Boston gets the Silver Star equivalent/FEC run and The present Orlando-Miami Route.
 
GWR said:
Just for interest why extend the train to Boston, wouldn't this increase the amount of mileage which the train will have to cover to complete the journey.
Is their not enough passenger train already going over the northern passenger corridor?

Guy
GWR,

Yes it would increase the mileage for the train, along with wear and tear on the equipment.

However, it would substantially boost ridership on the train. People want a one seat ride! Especially when they are elderly or hauling luggage. Having to switch in NY or DC discourages people from the Boston area using Amtrak to reach Florida. Plus the longer you can keep a passenger on the train, the more money you are making.

Finally forcing people to ride regional's or Acela Express trains from Boston to connect in NY, only takes away a seat from a business person/commuter who would pay more for that seat than Amtrak can charge the long distance customer.
 
Amtrak Watcher said:
Some Amtrak routes come very close to big cities without actually going there. The Coast Starlight avoiding San Francisco comes to mind.
Wichita is another. The Southwest Chief stops in Newton (about 20 miles north of Wichita) at 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning (depending in which direction you are going), which would not be a big deal during the day, but presents a real problem for those in Wichita in the middle of the night.

SOLUTION:

Send the Southwest Chief through Wichita instead of Newton.

Extend the Heartland Flyer from Oaklahoma City to Wichita.

These two steps would close a small hole in what would otherwise be a big network.

I've wondered why the Empire Builder doesn't go through the larger cities in North Dakota and Montana as it hugs the Canadian border. Someone told me this is because for the cities the Empire Builder presently serves, Amtrak is the only transportation option for hundreds of miles.
Amtrak Watcher,

There are a few reasons that trains do miss big cities. One, which is the case in San Fran, is the fact that the station does not have through tracks. All tracks are stub end. This would require the train to either back into the station or back out of the station. This is something that is always dangerous, especially at station that is very busy. Secondly, it's a very time consuming operation.

In other cases it might be because the tracks either no longer run there, or are in such terrible shape that you'd risk a derailment. Might also be that the route leaving the station would take the train in the wrong direction, such that it can’t get back to the correct main line for the rest of it’s run. It's also possible that the station is so run down as to be unusable, since sadly many of the great stations have fallen into disarray. Then there can be the NIMBY factor, where the locals just don't want the train going by them because it might be a little too noisy.

One of the greatest myths is "Having a train run by my house will decrease my property value." Wrong, wrong, wrong! The most valuable real estate around is that which is within walking distance of a train station.

It could also be the freight RR’s that don’t want to shift their freights out of the way to allow access to a city center.

I do agree however that Amtrak does need to look at these cities and see what can be practicably done to improve service to the center of the big cities.
 
Amfleet said:
I had never thought that the Kentucky Cardinal could just be run as a daylight train which would make sense. I also had no clue Louisville was served by a connecting bus.
Not just one bus, but two. Right now one has three choices each day from Louisville to Chicago, and three choices back from Chicago. You have trains 850/851 and buses 8250/8251/8252/8255. So there is a market here, Amtrak's problem is that it's diluting the market with the buses.

There are two reasons for the buses, one that's all that there used to be for several years prior to the train. Secondly, Amtrak set the train up for the freight connections and not the passenger connections.

If Amtrak dumped the buses and ran the train like I suggested, I'd bet that this route would make money. The train serves Louisville, which is a decent sized market in it's own right. In addition the train also serves Indianapolis, which is a major market that currently only sees nighttime service. Get the train there by 9 or 10 in the morning and I'd bet you'd sell this train out on many days.
 
AlanB said:
Amfleet said:
I had never thought that the Kentucky Cardinal could just be run as a daylight train which would make sense. I also had no clue Louisville was served by a connecting bus.
Not just one bus, but two. Right now one has three choices each day from Louisville to Chicago, and three choices back from Chicago. You have trains 850/851 and buses 8250/8251/8252/8255. So there is a market here, Amtrak's problem is that it's diluting the market with the buses.

There are two reasons for the buses, one that's all that there used to be for several years prior to the train. Secondly, Amtrak set the train up for the freight connections and not the passenger connections.

If Amtrak dumped the buses and ran the train like I suggested, I'd bet that this route would make money. The train serves Louisville, which is a decent sized market in it's own right. In addition the train also serves Indianapolis, which is a major market that currently only sees nighttime service. Get the train there by 9 or 10 in the morning and I'd bet you'd sell this train out on many days.
That would be a good quick fix until we can invest in the equipment for Overnight Travel and have the train extened maybe in a few phases.

1) To Nashville

2) Atlanta

3) Optional (Sanford/Tampa or FEC)

4) Miami
 
hello

the track does still exist to get to wichita ks but alot of it is shortlines. It would probably cost a lot to rebuild but I think it should be done.

The route from west to east would be as follows:

In Dodge city Ks leave BNSF for the Dodge City, Ford, and Bucklin 25 miles to Bucklin Ks on the UP sunset route.

Then UP 50 miles to Pratt, Ks

Then take, Central Kansas Railway 81 miles to Wichita ks.

then take UP 37.7 miles to Peabody Ks and rejoin BNSF about 15 miles east of Newton, KS. or go 21 miles due east to Augusta KS to meet the BNSF but this 21 miles is out of service. If rebuilt it obviously would not have any traffic to get in Amtraks way! :lol: :D

Hope this helps

John
 
hello

it also would be nice to have the CA zepher, go through Des Moines IA and then Cedar Rapids IA.

But that would entail upgrading 239 miles of Ex-Rock Island track owned by Iowa Interstate Railroad and Cedar Rapids and Iowa city Railroad.

Oh well,

John :(
 
Viewliner said:
That would be a good quick fix until we can invest in the equipment for Overnight Travel and have the train extened maybe in a few phases.
1) To Nashville

2) Atlanta

3) Optional (Sanford/Tampa or FEC)

4) Miami
Which of course, I think, was always Amtrak's grand plan even though they had never actually announced it. They had hoped to gradually lengthen the route to reach Florida.
 
AlanB said:
Then there can be the NIMBY factor, where the locals just don't want the train going by them because it might be a little too noisy.
One of the greatest myths is "Having a train run by my house will decrease my property value." Wrong, wrong, wrong! The most valuable real estate around is that which is within walking distance of a train station.
Very true statement.

In the Los Angeles area, brand new housing tracts are being developed within easy walking or biking distance from Metrolink/Amtrak stations.

These include not only single family homes, but also condos and apartments. These properties are sold or rented before they are completed, that's how popular they are.
 
tp49 said:
I would also love to see a Los Angeles/San Francisco train that actually goes into San Francisco up the peninsula.
Just such a train is in the works.

The only down side is that the proposed train will make 22 stops.

According to the Amtrak California website this train should start up in the next year or so.
 
There are a few reasons that trains do miss big cities. One, which is the case in San Fran, is the fact that the station does not have through tracks. All tracks are stub end. This would require the train to either back into the station or back out of the station. This is something that is always dangerous, especially at station that is very busy. Secondly, it's a very time consuming operation
Alan,

The other reason Amtrak currently avoids San Francisco is not only what you mention in the above quote but the whole SF peninsula is a "stub end." For example if we rerouted the Coast Starlight from into San Francisco it would go up the peninsula from San Jose make its SF stop then head back down the peninsula to San Jose where it would have to resume its regular route as there is no way via rail across SF Bay.
 
I don't know this is a good route or Not

From Boston to Atlanta then on to Miami.

Why is their not another engine at the other end of the train facing the other way, so all the dricver would have to do is get out of one engine and walk down into the other end.

Guy
 
FIrst, to Viewliner...yes I would be interested in pics of Hickory Creek. Would this be something you send over the internet or through the mail? Let me know.

If anyone is interested in the 20th Century Limited I can think of nothing better for you to do than rent the movie "North by Northwest" by ALfred Hitchcock. The 20th Century is depicted very well in that movie. In the sleeper room it even shows real train doors(I think)....do you know what I mean? You know how, on a train, doors are never "normal" looking? Well, when you see a sleeping car room depicted in the movies, one of the things that gives it away as being just a stageprop is the "knob style" doors...which trains almost never have The only knob style door I ever remember seeing on a train was to the dormiotory on a train I rode when I was a child.

Back to the 20th Century Limited and the Broadway Ltd. They were, most of their lives, all pullman, and they made the NY-CHI trip in 16 hours.. They did have coaches in the later years. Amtrak at one time took great pride in the Broadway, with all reconditioned equipment---just possibly it may have had some of the first "heritage cars".

I made mention in an earlier post about reviving the Lark.....It, and other trains, did indeed travel from SF proper,(without an across the bay bus conneciton) ,via San Jose to LA. The day trains were called "Daylights"...the Lark, at one time, was an all pullman train like the Century and the Broadway. What was novel was when Amtrak put together the train to run straight through from Seattle to San Diego(Yes, it orignally ran on to San Diego, not just LA). That train, of course had to skirt SAF...it only made sense.

Back to Hickory Creek...its companion car, the one on the other set of Century equipment was called Sandy Creek. Rumour has it that Sandy Creek has been reconditioned and is now operating on the American Orient Express....I am not sure if that is true....if anyone out ther knows, please let us know. One can probably find a lot about the 20th Century on the net....I have not tried that yet.
 
GWR said:
Why is their not another engine at the other end of the train facing the other way, so all the dricver would have to do is get out of one engine and walk down into the other end.
Guy
Guy,

There are several reasons for not putting one engine at each end of the train. The first would be simply it a huge expense in fuel, along with extra wear and tear on the engine. Now in the case of trains that already have two engines this would not be true, since you could just take one engine off the front and run it around to the back.

The second reason has to due with braking and drag issues. The engines, since they are much heavier, tend to brake a little slower than the cars do. So in an emergency stop you could find the cars getting sandwiched between the two engines. In fact one of the things still being debated with the Auto Train crash earlier this year is, did the Auto carriers which are heavier than the passenger cars brake slower and therefore force some of the passenger cars to flip over. This of course was not the cause of the accident that still looks like poor track maintenance on the part of CSX. The difference in braking however may have made the accident worse.

Finally and perhaps most importantly, in order to run an engine at each end of the train, you must have control cables that run the length of the train so the two engines' computers can talk to one another. Currently MHC cars and Road Railers on the end of the trains don't have those cables. Fitting them with cable is a huge and unnecessary expense. Even if Amtrak does stop hauling freight, many of its passenger cars don't have the cables in place or the cable have been cut.

There are probably even a few other reasons that I haven't thought of that would preclude running an engine at each end of the train.
 
Bill, Just Send me your email address using the Messenger and I'll send you the pictures as an attachment as soon as I can develop them.
 
Well it maybe be a idea if they create some new Hubs to feed the long distance trains.

I know New York and LA have a number of surban trains run by the state and several by amtrak. But should amtrak look at increasing them,

Most major airline you a hub system why shouldn't amtrak.

Guy
 
GWR said:
Well it maybe be a idea if they create some new Hubs to feed the long distance trains.
I know New York and LA have a number of surban trains run by the state and several by amtrak. But should amtrak look at increasing them,

Most major airline you a hub system why shouldn't amtrak.

Guy
There are problems with the hub and spoke system. First, is that many people have to go to a hub city out of the way of their destination just to get there. Second, many of the delays in the air traffic system are created by the bottlenecks at the hubs where the planes come in at roughly the same time and leave at roughly the same time. While this facilitates connections it creates congestion and delays. It is no secret that the most profitible of the US airlines Southwest uses a point to point system to get people from point A to point B.

Amtrak already has a few hub type stations (NYP, Chicago Union, LA, New Orleans, etc.). For rail the hub system might be slightly more effective and the addition of hubs could be done depending upon the service.

As for Amtrak increasing the suburban or short corridor service cost is a huge factor. Sunday night my train 746 was delayed due to running over a person laying on the tracks. During the delay the lounge attendant and I were talking about this. It seems that in the case of UP and possibly others if a service is deemed as a commuter service (based on frequency) Amtrak has to pay a significantly higher fee to use the tracks. In the case of the Capitol Corridor the plan is to have a frequency just under what UP would consider a commuter service to avoid paying the higher fee.
 
Desert Wind Revived (Chigago-Las Vegas-Los Angeles)
There was one interesting suggestion afloat not long after the Desert Wind and Pioneer were cancelled, to run one single train between Los Angeles and Seattle, over the routes of both of those trains. It would be a much longer routing than the existing Los Angeles-Seattle train (the Coast Starlight), but it would serve the important markets of Las Vegas, Provo/Salt Lake City/Ogden, Pocatello (University of Idaho), Boise, and Portland en route. It would be timed in a manner to conveniently meet the California Zephyr at Salt Lake City.

Another group of suggestions that I have advocated would be to run multiple trains on existing corridors. Running a second train where there is already Amtrak service is a lot easier than trying to startup a whole new route. The idea would be to offer daytime service where there is now just one train in each direction calling during less-than-convenient times of the night. A departure at, say, 2 PM would attract a lot more ridership than a 2 AM departure. Doing this would, of course, mean poor calling times elsewhere on the route, but those points would have better times on the existing train. The new schedule could be tweaked to provide relatively convenient times at major cities along the route. To get an idea of how this might work, take the timetable for a long distance train like the Southwest Chief or the California Zephyr, and simply flip-flop the AM's and PM's.
 
First of all sorry to hear that your train was delayed.

Secondly I was think of using a Hub system because it would be able to cover more town and cities by using this formation and maybe have internal domestic competition against the airlines

Guy
 
Viewliner said:
Bill, Just Send me your email address using the Messenger and I'll send you the pictures as an attachment as soon as I can develop them.
Viewliner,

I'd love copies of those Hickory Creek photos too, if you don't mind. I didn't get any of my own. You've already got my email address.

Thanks.
 
Okay I'll send them as soon as I can get them developed and scanned, so it may be a few weeks. Anyone interested in any of my other photos from the festival?
 
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