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B757Guy

Happy New Year, from the Flight Deck

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1 hour ago, VTTrain said:

Interesting.  I did not know about the Concorde's different speed restriction below 10,000 feet.  

That said, 15 minutes is still seems unlikely.  At 10,000 feet the speed of sound is roughly 735 miles per hour (making some assumptions about temperature, etc.).  This equates to 661.5 miles per hour at mach 0.9.  At that speed, the plane would cover 165 miles every 15 minutes.  Islip to Dulles is 264 miles.  Even JFK to IAD is 228 miles.  And of course it is impossible for the plane to travel at mach 0.9 straight into the runway.  It gets a little more complicated because the speed of sound increases by about 27 mph at sea level, but I highly doubt that they were traveling at mach 0.9 the entire time that they were below 10,000 feet.  

And of course I may have this all wrong since I am definitely out of my league here.

 

Nope, you are correct! 15 minutes did seem like a stretch... Oh, and it's not unusual for a very heavy 747 to fly above 250kts below 10,000 on take-off. This is done for safety reasons. Most military aircraft also have a wavier below 10,000, and often when I was a pilot in the Air Force, I would have my speed around 300kts below this.

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25 minutes ago, B757Guy said:

No, they can not be overridden by a PIC. The rules are very explicit. Unless you are authorized, once any US based airliner pushes from the gate, any non-authorized individuals must not be on the flight deck.  Even a flight attendant is prohibited from sitting in the jump seat as a passenger. Having said that, on an aircraft with just two pilots, and no authorized jump seaters, the FA is required to stand behind the CA or FO while the other is using the bathroom. While at the gate, with the parking break engaged, we are happy to have a visitor pop in, provided are work load is light.

I think we're confusing terms or something.  Critical stage jump seat privileges are separate and distinct from cruise stage flight deck access.  I've seen flight attendants enter and remain on the flight deck during cruise with my own two eyes, typically when one of the pilots is using the restroom.  The PIC override is only intended for emergency situations, but that doesn't mean it never happens.  I've seen passengers who were visibly unqualified enter the flight deck during cruise in the post 9-11 era.  Not on a US airline, but not everyone plays by the same rules.

Edited by Devil's Advocate

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Just now, Devil's Advocate said:

I think we're confusing terms or something.  Critical stage jump seat privileges are separate and distinct from cruise stage flight deck access.  I've watched flight attendants enter and remain on the flight deck during cruise with my own two eyes, typically when one of the pilots is using the restroom.  The PIC override is only intended for emergency situations, but that doesn't mean it never happens.  I've seen passengers who were quite visibly unqualified enter the flight deck during cruise in the post 9-11 era.  Not on a US airline, but not everyone plays by the same rules and/or reporting structure.

 

I can only comment on US based airlines, as that is who I fly for. Yes, an FA will be on the flight deck during a bathroom break as I mentioned, but that is it. Once we push back from the gate, only authorized individuals are allowed. US based airlines will not even allow jump seat privileges to a flight attendant, as a passenger, which is something we use to do regularly prior to 9/11.

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But what about other countries...do they have the same restriction as US airlines?   Is it an international regulation, or subject to the laws of the airlines registration country, and/or place the aircraft is flying?   

Like my experience on BA....or did that change since 1998?

 

As for my ride in a AE jumpseat....well....."don't ask...I won't tell"......:D

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3 minutes ago, railiner said:

But what about other countries...do they have the same restriction as US airlines?   Is it an international regulation, or subject to the laws of the airlines registration country, and/or place the aircraft is flying?   

Like my experience on BA....or did that change since 1998?

 

As for my ride in a AE jumpseat....well....."don't ask...I won't tell"......:D

 

The rules are different for foreign carriers, but I do not know what they are.

 

As for the AE jump seat ride, if it was post 9/11, consider yourself very lucky, and the crew should consider themselves even luckier that they did not get caught. :)

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5 minutes ago, B757Guy said:

 

The rules are different for foreign carriers, but I do not know what they are.

 

As for the AE jump seat ride, if it was post 9/11, consider yourself very lucky, and the crew should consider themselves even luckier that they did not get caught. :)

It was well before 9-11.   Those aircraft were long gone from the fleet, by then.

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10 minutes ago, railiner said:

But what about other countries...do they have the same restriction as US airlines?   Is it an international regulation, or subject to the laws of the airlines registration country, and/or place the aircraft is flying? Like my experience on BA....or did that change since 1998?

Regulations in the US and EU are mostly harmonized.  Flights outside of these areas will sometimes allow more access. 

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5 hours ago, B757Guy said:
On 1/5/2019 at 12:15 PM, railiner said:

Is the flight deck closed to visitor's in flight, a US reg?   The reason I ask is when I had the good fortune to travel aboard BA's Concorde, from LHR to JFK back in 1998, the captain invited everyone on board to take a turn 'visiting' while high over the Atlantic.   I would say about a third of the 100 passenger's accepted that invitation, the rest must have been privileged "regular's", who were too blase to take advantage of that incredible experience.  The highlight was seeing the amazing "panel gap" between the flight engineer's panel, and the wall, which did not exist when the aircraft was on the ground, all due to the high heat and expansion from the supersonic slipstream.:cool:

 

Another flight deck experience, was on UAL DC-8-61 from EWR to DEN, back in the late seventies...we were also delayed at the gate by weather and ATC, and the captain invited us up for a peek, and graciously answered 'tons' of question's, until it was time to pushback.:)

 

And my last flight deck experience was aboard an AE Shorts 360, where I actually got to sit in the jump seat from JFK to PVD.  The non-pressurized boxy fuselage featured a roomy lav that the passenger's on a 737MAX could only dream about using...:P
 

SHORTS 360!!! I have about 200 hours in one. Loved every minute of it!One of the neat things, both the CA and FO had their own door to the flight deck.

I love all Shorts planes. If I win the lottery, I am TOTALLY buying one. ^_^

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On 1/5/2019 at 12:15 PM, railiner said:

Is the flight deck closed to visitor's in flight, a US reg? 

Yes, ever since they cracked down on security post-9/11. In fact, from the reports I've seen, only two of the many changes made to airport/plane security protocols since then have actually made a difference in preventing attacks: the fact that the flight deck is locked once the plane is moving, and that passengers are encouraged to fight back. Pretty much everything else either doesn't make any difference or can be easily bypassed. :unsure:

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I’m finding that hard to believe since flight over land had to be sub-sonic.  Perhaps he meant that he had to begin preparations for landing?  The Concorde had its flaws, but it’s sad to see such an iconic plane gone. I will also be sad when the final 747 leaves passenger service.   


In fact, they were required to go to subsonic speed over land and you can doubt my report as you wish but my statement was an accurate quote of what the pilot told me. I did not take a stopwatch and check whether or not we actually landed in fifteen minutes. I was the last passenger to get the cockpit visit. I will say that the landing was awesome as it felt like being in a spaceship landing as the nose of the cockpit bent down and the plane seemed to be almost vertical (of course it wasn’t actually that steep), until the small wheels on the “stinger” touched and then the plane slowly settled down.

An amazing trip at 1300+ mph and 70,000 feet.

I was very fortunate to be traveling with our corporate president, otherwise, I wouldn’t have had the opportunity.

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I don’t doubt for a second that you were told that. What I actually doubt is that the pilot somehow had a mechanism to bend the laws of physics to get you to the airport in that amount of time.  That’s all.

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44 minutes ago, JRR said:

 


An amazing trip at 1300+ mph and 70,000 feet.
 

I concur on the speed...but are you certain about that altitude?

On my flight, we were at, or just below 60,000 feet, and 1,320 mph...

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39 minutes ago, railiner said:
1 hour ago, JRR said:

An amazing trip at 1300+ mph and 70,000 feet.

I concur on the speed...but are you certain about that altitude?

On my flight, we were at, or just below 60,000 feet, and 1,320 mph...

Correct. Concorde’s service ceiling is 60,000 feet (and its top speed is 1,354 mph).

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Well, there was a digital readout board which showed altitude and speed. The pilot gave an interesting discussion of both and indicated that atmospheric conditions determined speed and altitude. I don’t recall the exact speed other than it was over 1,300 mph but the board definitely read 70,000 feet.

 

As to the time to Dulles, as I said, I didn’t time it. My conversation with the pilot, however was memorable. When he said I would have to take my seat as we would be landing in fifteen minutes, I said: “I thought we were landing in Dulles,” and he replied: “We are!”, and we did, but I can’t say that we broke any laws of physics or FAA rules or that we, in fact, landed in fifteen minutes!

 

It was however, a most memorable flight and, yes, it was long before 9/11.

 

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I wonder if possibly you were over the Chesapeake Bay, and not Long Island at this time? It would be an odd arrival into IAD, as most international flights are routed into IAD a different way, but certainly possible. Do you recall your altitude at the time?

It's also quite possible the flight crew told you that, simply to get you back to your seat sooner. 

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I was in the cockpit, bent over so I could see out the window. The pilot pointed out a speck on the horizon which he said was Long Island. After a short time when Long Island was just ahead of us, he told me that we would be landing in 15 minutes etc.

At that point I'm not sure of our altitude at the time but at the start of my time in the cockpit, the curvature of the earth was clearly visible.

No, we were not over the Chesapeake Bay. I lived in Maryland for 13 years, am a sailor and sailed the bay extensively, so there is no way.

Further, I was surprised enough by his statement to wonder whether we were going to land at Kennedy instead of Dulles. We did land at Dulles but I can't tell you the time it took but it was not a long time but 15 minutes?, I don't have any way to know.

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19 minutes ago, JRR said:

I was in the cockpit, bent over so I could see out the window. The pilot pointed out a speck on the horizon which he said was Long Island. After a short time when Long Island was just ahead of us, he told me that we would be landing in 15 minutes etc.

At that point I'm not sure of our altitude at the time but at the start of my time in the cockpit, the curvature of the earth was clearly visible.

No, we were not over the Chesapeake Bay. I lived in Maryland for 13 years, am a sailor and sailed the bay extensively, so there is no way.

Further, I was surprised enough by his statement to wonder whether we were going to land at Kennedy instead of Dulles. We did land at Dulles but I can't tell you the time it took but it was not a long time but 15 minutes?, I don't have any way to know.

 

More than likely, the crew just wanted you back in your seat, hence the comment about landing in 15 minutes.

Glad you got to fly on it! I never was fortunate enough to do so, but then again, did routinely fly faster than she could, while in the Air Force. :)

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3 hours ago, B757Guy said:

 

 

Glad you got to fly on it! I never was fortunate enough to do so, but then again, did routinely fly faster than she could, while in the Air Force. :)

Thank you, for your service.

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[Some of these posts] eventually got a little too pedantic even for me, and that's saying something.  :lol:

Anyway, more to the point, thanks to the OP for his opening post and for taking time to respond to others.

I enjoy discussing the whys and wherefores of aviation but the usual sites can be a bit much if you're not a diehard fanatic.

Edited by Devil's Advocate

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15 hours ago, Devil's Advocate said:

[Some of these posts] eventually got a little too pedantic even for me, and that's saying something.  :lol:

Anyway, more to the point, thanks to the OP for his opening post and for taking time to respond to others.

I enjoy discussing the whys and wherefores of aviation but the usual sites can be a bit much if you're not a diehard fanatic.

Thanks Devils Advocate! 

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