Pin cards not accepted...

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caravanman

Engineer
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Messages
4,800
Location
Nottingham, England.
I was surprised to read this on the Amtrak website:



Accepted Forms of Payment at the Station





  





Credit and Debit Cards




Credit and debit cards are accepted for the purchase of Amtrak tickets and services at all staffed stations. Debit cards must have a credit card logo and will be processed as credit card transactions; cards that require the entry of a PIN (personal identification number) are not accepted.

I always assumed that the need for a pin number made the card more secure? (My UK credit and debit cards both require a pin, so will neither work at Amtrak stations) ?

Ed.
 
I always assumed that the need for a pin number made the card more secure? (My UK credit and debit cards both require a pin, so will neither work at Amtrak stations) ?
This doesn't answer your question, but I thought I would mention that "they" (the banks?) just made some rather major security enhancements to credit/debit cards here in the USA, and "they" intentionally choose to not adopt the use of a PIN as UK/EUR already uses.
 
Normally, merchants prefer PIN on a debit card since it is processed as an EFT and costs less in fees to process than a signature based transaction. US based debit cards with the logo of a credit card like visa or mc are capable of being processed on both the cr card or eft network. In the US we have moved to chip and signature for cr card as opposed to chip and pin which is the world standard. There must be a specific reason why they won't do chip and pin debit, I too am now curious....
 
Normally, merchants prefer PIN on a debit card since it is processed as an EFT and costs less in fees to process than a signature based transaction. US based debit cards with the logo of a credit card like visa or mc are capable of being processed on both the cr card or eft network. In the US we have moved to chip and signature for cr card as opposed to chip and pin which is the world standard. There must be a specific reason why they won't do chip and pin debit, I too am now curious....
Indeed, if one has a signature on the US card already, I guess it would not be rocket science to scrawl something acceptably similar if a thief...

Is there a move not to accept European chip and pin across America, or is it just Amtrak stations?

Ed
 
I notice many times when I use my credit cards with chips for purchases (I never use my ATM debit card), they don't require a signature...is it because it's under a certain amount?   Not sure...
 
That depends, there were floors below which signatures were not required, but the credit card companies have mostly dropped the signature requirement from their rules. Many merchants still require it, but more and more are requesting photo id, since the signatures, particularly the stylus on pad ones, are pretty much useless as proof of anything.
 
Chip and pin has some advantages and some disadvantages over chip and signature, but the real problem is that they still kept the magnetic stripe on the cards, which is the part most vulnerable to hacking and card cloning. So until that goes away finally, our chip cards are still less secure than they could be. 

I've heard it argued that chip and signature is better security than chip and pin, because people get careless in how they enter their pins, allowing bad guys to observe them on the keypads. Yeah, maybe... What I do know is that the signature part of chip and signature is pretty well useless as a security measure--the systems accept any kind of scribble you want to make. I tend to do an X or a scribbled circle--and it always gets okayed!  It's all probably moot anyway, with contactless payment the coming thing. (I just got my British Airways contactless credit card last week.)

And speaking of different ideas about card security, my European friends find it horrifying that when we go to restaurants, we pay by giving the waitstaff our card, who then go disappear out of sight often for extended periods. "Oh, no!  He just took your card away!!"  "No problem, that's just how we do things." " But, what if he's copying all your information??  This is crazy!" "I suppose so, but we've been doing it forever and the sky hasn't fallen."
 
I just have a Chase Visa Debit for my checking account, and I have been pretty surprised by the variation in what I have to put in or do to use it. I virtually always use the chip (every once in a while I run into a card reader that needs me to swipe), but even for the same type of purchase, it may or may not ask for a signature, may or may not ask for the pin, or may even ask for both. I just don’t understand it. :wacko:
 
A debit card with a logo is capable of being processed in 2 different manners. Signature processes across the credit card network, PIN as an EFT. Transaction fees paid to the merchant service processor is lower as a debit processed transaction. Credit card companies have pretty much dropped the signature requirement on chip cards, some merchants and processors still want it. If a merchant has not converted to chip enabled processing, they assume certain liabilities that were previously the responsibilities of the card issuer. There is an exception for pay at the pump gas pumps until 2020. 
 
A debit card with a logo is capable of being processed in 2 different manners. Signature processes across the credit card network, PIN as an EFT. Transaction fees paid to the merchant service processor is lower as a debit processed transaction. Credit card companies have pretty much dropped the signature requirement on chip cards, some merchants and processors still want it. If a merchant has not converted to chip enabled processing, they assume certain liabilities that were previously the responsibilities of the card issuer. There is an exception for pay at the pump gas pumps until 2020. 
Is this why when I use my card at the local grocery store, it gives me the option to “Use as” “US Debit or Visa Debit”?
 
So I assume that I can't use my "pin" cards to buy tickets at an Amtrak station. Might trip up a few overseas visitors?

With the Brexit "train wreck" coming up, I have decided to visit Spain shortly instead of America, before Brits need visas to visit mainland Europe.  :D

(Airfare is a bit cheaper too)!

Ed
 
What is sort of interesting is that we have explored the world of credit and debit cards from a number of different angles and experiences, and we still have not actually gotten a definitive answer as to why that would be a stated policy, of Amtrak, and what can be done as a workaround. As an example, you can use a card over the phone or on line without either chip or pin or signature so I have no idea why the pin is unacceptable at a station.
 
What is sort of interesting is that we have explored the world of credit and debit cards from a number of different angles and experiences, and we still have not actually gotten a definitive answer as to why that would be a stated policy, of Amtrak, and what can be done as a workaround. As an example, you can use a card over the phone or on line without either chip or pin or signature so I have no idea why the pin is unacceptable at a station.
Well I guess the question that needs to be answered is does the OP have a Visa/MC logo on his debit card? If so, this sounds like this is a non issue. The station will swipe it or use the chip reader as normal and have him sign the CC slip. Now if it is a debit card without one, then it is most likely equivalent to our ATM card which Amtrak does not accept nor do I now many business's that do(Correct me if I'm wrong). OP is going to have to get cash out at the ATM and purchase with cash.

I've run into this whole pin vs sign issue going in reverse where I've contacted my CC companies to get a PIN for purchases in Europe. Chase told be VERY CLEARLY that under no circumstances should I need a PIN for use with my CC unless its to take out a cash advance and any transactions that do use it will accrue fees and interests accordingly. 

I got back from 2 week in Europe yesterday. Before going, I read A LOT of info regarding how blah blah blah in Italy, blah blah blah in Germany for gas, tolls, and parking so bring cash if you don't have a PIN with your card. Well, I took out 300 Euros for "Just In Case" and my PINLess CC was declined ZERO times during the trip. Either the terminal prints out a slip for me to sign (Restaurants/Hotels) or like on the Autostrada and other payment kiosks, it just does not ask for either.

OP's best bet is to contact his bank and see how transactions will clear in the US where PIN isn't used. Only the financial institution that issued the OP's card can give him definite information.
 
For Europe and many other parts of the world, Chip and PIN is the standard for credit cards as well as debit cards, so it is far more common than debit only, since the likelihood of a traveler using a credit card are pretty high. I would be very surprised if there is not a procedure to handle this, it's not like Europeans coming here is a rare event. There are some special credit cards issued that can not be processed without a pin for extra security, and they are processed off the regular networks. That may be what they are referring to, and not being very clear.
 
For years at WalMart, I've noticed they only require a signature over a certain limit. At one time I think it was $50 where I live, but it may now be higher. I have also noticed the  limit is higher in the daytime. On behalf of Night People everywhere, I call blatant discrimination :excl:         :eek:hboy:
 
Since credit card companies are mostly doing away with signature requirements, more and more merchants are asking for picture id. They don't want to deal with the hassle of fraud claims. If the card is signed on the back, this is often contrary to the credit card company policy, but enforcement is not common.

Night people are not a protected class, in most of the US that discrimination would be legal.
 
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I used to have a credit card that had both my photo and signature printed on the front of the card....(I don't have it any longer, or know if Citi still issues them)...
 
Just a supplementary question... The Amtrak site quoted above says that any debit cards used must have the "credit card logo" on them, again, I don't know what that means?

No worries anyway, it was simply a surprise, that what I thought was a security feature, the pin, was not accepted in person at the Amtrak ticket counter.

Ed. 
 
Just a supplementary question... The Amtrak site quoted above says that any debit cards used must have the "credit card logo" on them, again, I don't know what that means?
Many (dare I say most) debit cards in the USA now have the Visa or Mastercard logo on them. This means that merchants, like Amtrak, can process them through the credit networks even though the card is a debit card. It simplifies things for the merchant and card processor. I'm not sure how common that is for debit cards outside of the USA.
 
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Indeed, if one has a signature on the US card already, I guess it would not be rocket science to scrawl something acceptably similar if a thief...

Is there a move not to accept European chip and pin across America, or is it just Amtrak stations?

Ed
My understanding was that there were too many whiners who didn't want to do pins.
 
Now you've gotten me curious. Next time I take the Cascades to Portland and buy my ticket at the station, I'll first try to pay with my Natwest chip and  pin card, just to see what happens. If it fails, well, I'll have a fallback of my US chip and signature card.
 
What the US currently has is Chip *OR* Signature, which is utterly meaningless, by design.

(1) I've heard it argued that chip and signature is better security than chip and pin, because people get careless in how they enter their pins, allowing bad guys to observe them on the keypads. Yeah, maybe... (2) It's all probably moot anyway, with contactless payment the coming thing. (I just got my British Airways contactless credit card last week.)

(3) And speaking of different ideas about card security, my European friends find it horrifying that when we go to restaurants, we pay by giving the waitstaff our card, who then go disappear out of sight often for extended periods. "Oh, no!  He just took your card away!!"  "No problem, that's just how we do things." " But, what if he's copying all your information??  This is crazy!" "I suppose so, but we've been doing it forever and the sky hasn't fallen."
(1) Why should the limitations of lazy and/or ignorant people be allowed to dictate the level of security offered to responsible people?  (2) If I steal your non-contact BA card what prevents me from making fraudulent purchases before you realize it's gone?  Your European friends are right.  The US has the industrialized world's least secure credit/debit cards and yet we use them as if they were difficult to abuse.

Since credit card companies are mostly doing away with signature requirements, more and more merchants are asking for picture id. They don't want to deal with the hassle of fraud claims. If the card is signed on the back, this is often contrary to the credit card company policy, but enforcement is not common.
Out of tens of thousands of card purchases I can count the number of times I've been asked for photo identification on one hand.

My understanding was that there were too many whiners who didn't want to do pins.
Yeah, the financial institutions who take up to 7% of our annual earnings in the form of middleman transaction fees.
 
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