Daily Sunset (All Aboard Arizona Fall Meeting)

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toddinde

OBS Chief
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
550
Location
Sierra Vista, AZ
The Fall Meeting of All Aboard Arizona today in Tucson was very interesting. A couple key takeaways. First, a daily Sunset Limited appears to be an Amtrak priority. That is great news because anything less than daily is hard to use. Second, the Sunset’s route from NO to LA serves more population and a faster growing area than the North East Corridor with many city pairs 300 miles apart (of course the population density is less). Third, a daily Sunset through Phoenix is exactly what would be needed to jump start a Tucson to Phoenix corridor, ultimately with additional service Tucson or even El Paso to LA. It is time to advocate for a daily Sunset Limited now, and begin the lift to route it back through Phoenix.
 
Firstly, why are there so many organizations called “All Aboard [some state]”? Are they connected or is it just a popular phrase?

Secondly, what makes you think that “a daily Sunset Limited appears to be an Amtrak priority”. Forgive me if I’m misunderstanding, but you didn’t say anything about why you think that. Just because some rail group supports something (even if there are plenty of solid reasons for it), does not necessarily mean that Amtrak wants that thing, let alone “prioritizing” it. And while the Sunset’s route may serve a higher population the NEC, it is also roughly five times the length.
 
Firstly, why are there so many organizations called “All Aboard [some state]”? Are they connected or is it just a popular phrase?
Secondly, what makes you think that “a daily Sunset Limited appears to be an Amtrak priority”. Forgive me if I’m misunderstanding, but you didn’t say anything about why you think that. Just because some rail group supports something (even if there are plenty of solid reasons for it), does not necessarily mean that Amtrak wants that thing, let alone “prioritizing” it. And while the Sunset’s route may serve a higher population the NEC, it is also roughly five times the length.
If you look at trainorders, Amtrak sent RPA a letter that they are going to try to make Eve Cardinal and SL daily, pending negotiations with the house RRs. My guess is that's where this is coming from. It's also possible that have their own contacts with Amtrak as well. Now whether these "negotiations" go anywhere is a completely different deal. My guess is both CSX and UP will demand a Kings ransom for daily service. Especially since a chunk of the route the Cardinal is on is at risk of downgrade.
 
My understanding is that the hangup on the Daily Cardinal is that CSX doesn't want to renegotiate access there without Amtrak coughing up more for track access on other LD routes.  Now, given the rates I understand CSX is getting (which IIRC are around 5-10% of what newer commuter operations are paying per train-mile) I cannot blame them.  Given the choice, I'd be inclined to agree to an increase in the rates...with the "increase" being in the form of incentive payments.  Of course, in Amtrak's shoes I'd also be talking with VA (and possibly WV) about working out a transfer of the rest of the ex-C&O line to Buckingham Branch or someone else.
 
Anderson said:
My understanding is that the hangup on the Daily Cardinal is that CSX doesn't want to renegotiate access there without Amtrak coughing up more for track access on other LD routes.  Now, given the rates I understand CSX is getting (which IIRC are around 5-10% of what newer commuter operations are paying per train-mile) I cannot blame them.  Given the choice, I'd be inclined to agree to an increase in the rates...with the "increase" being in the form of incentive payments.  Of course, in Amtrak's shoes I'd also be talking with VA (and possibly WV) about working out a transfer of the rest of the ex-C&O line to Buckingham Branch or someone else.
Not to mention some of the Cardinals route is a target for downgrading, so CSX has added the joyous demand that any renegotiation will also entail Amtrak paying for the required class 4 maintenance (Raton Pass style). I think there's a much better chance of a daily SL than a daily Cardinal.
 
My understanding is that the hangup on the Daily Cardinal is that CSX doesn't want to renegotiate access there without Amtrak coughing up more for track access on other LD routes.  Now, given the rates I understand CSX is getting (which IIRC are around 5-10% of what newer commuter operations are paying per train-mile) I cannot blame them.  Given the choice, I'd be inclined to agree to an increase in the rates...with the "increase" being in the form of incentive payments.  Of course, in Amtrak's shoes I'd also be talking with VA (and possibly WV) about working out a transfer of the rest of the ex-C&O line to Buckingham Branch or someone else.
Not to mention some of the Cardinals route is a target for downgrading, so CSX has added the joyous demand that any renegotiation will also entail Amtrak paying for the required class 5 maintenance (Raton Pass style). I think there's a much better chance of a daily SL than a daily Cardinal.
Class 5 or class 4? Class 5 would be 90 mph (with signaling upgrades), and I don't believe that's in the offing under anyone's proposal. Class 4 with standard wayside signals is good for 79.
 
Class 5 or class 4? Class 5 would be 90 mph (with signaling upgrades), and I don't believe that's in the offing under anyone's proposal. Class 4 with standard wayside signals is good for 79.
I meant 4. Fixed in my original post.
 
Getting the station back into Phoenix is going to require either state or city financial support.  Is there any hope?  I see no near-term chance at the state level, not until the first non-gerrymandered election is over, but I know nothing of city-of-Phoenix politics.
 
Phoenix actually is sort of Progressive, and Arizonoa even elected a Democrat :( crat to the Senate ,but it's still basically a Conservarive State where the late Senator John McCain actually said on the Floor of the US Senate: " Amtrak doesn't serve my State!" 

See the Schedule for the Sunset Ltd. and the Southwest Chief!
 
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Kyrsten Sinema is very cool.

I suppose the population dynamics of Arizona are moving slowly.  Eventually it'll be like Nevada, completely dominated by the urban vote and therefore not voting for Republicans for anything ever, but I'm not sure when.  (In Nevada, Las Vegas is so large that the rest of the state doesn't really matter for electing the governor or Senators.)
 
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Nevada still has a large contingent of anti tax libertarian types that are against anything public. Even if the public becomes less conservative on social issues, the people are still fairly conservative when it comes to money. Mostly this is because the casinos and mining interest makes sure that anti tax, anti spending people remain prominent. This is a state that will vote for a tax increase if one of those two interests give it a nod. So if Nevada does expand Amtrak service, the casino companies in Reno and Las Vegas will have to give a nod to it. On that note, I give the expansion of the Capitol Corridor slightly better odds of happening. Sacramento is much closer to Reno than Vegas is to any SoCal city. Not to mention Bright line turned Virgin Trains USA bought out the private company trying to bring train service between SoCal and Vegas. Private anything makes politicians tingly with excitement in Nevada and that will be an easy way for the Vegas casino companies to beat back a slight tax increase to pay for Amtrak service. I give the Capitol Corridor better odds because people in Northern California are generally more friendly to train service, the area between Sacramento to Reno is more populated than the SoCal to Vegas corridors, and Reno has more of a "throw everything into economic development" mentality than Vegas does. And there are virtually no prospects for private rail service in Northern California anytime soon. 
 
My understanding is that the hangup on the Daily Cardinal is that CSX doesn't want to renegotiate access there without Amtrak coughing up more for track access on other LD routes. Now, given the rates I understand CSX is getting (which IIRC are around 5-10% of what newer commuter operations are paying per train-mile) I cannot blame them. Given the choice, I'd be inclined to agree to an increase in the rates...with the "increase" being in the form of incentive payments. Of course, in Amtrak's shoes I'd also be talking with VA (and possibly WV) about working out a transfer of the rest of the ex-C&O line to Buckingham Branch or someone else.

I more or less agree, but... "Why pay for the milk when you can buy the cow?"

Rather than increasing the annual payments to CSX for shoddy dispatching, make CSX an offer they can't refuse to buy the routes. (Probably one at a time, given funding; state funding is most likely to be available for the LSL to Boston route, followed by the Empire Corridor route.) And then CSX can pay Amtrak for access. Requires capital upfront, but pays back better in the long run.
 
Not to mention some of the Cardinals route is a target for downgrading, so CSX has added the joyous demand that any renegotiation will also entail Amtrak paying for the required class 4 maintenance (Raton Pass style). I think there's a much better chance of a daily SL than a daily Cardinal.

I am curious, which part of the Cardinal train route is in danger of being downgraded? I worry it's the part east of Charleston, WV, and for sure had my favorite moments of scenery I saw on that route. I.e. the mountains, the beautiful small towns it went through, the great train depots like Thurmond and Hinton, etc. Still bums me I couldn't quite get a good shot of the depot in White Sulphur Springs, since I liked its design.
 
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