P42 Shortage?

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Zach

Train Attendant
Joined
Oct 30, 2013
Messages
31
Browsing Railpictures.net I came across this http://www.railpictures.net/photo/678103/ 
Since when did Amtrak have enough spare power to lease out?
 
It's been reasonably common for a while now. Amtrak isn't that short on motive power, particularly now that they have Chargers in the Midwest, PNW, SoCal, and NorCal.
Not all of the Midwest...AML services still don't have theirs yet. No word on when they're coming either. 
 
If that is the case, what about the freight engine in the lead if there are enough locomotives?
How many trains leave the original terminal with a freight engine?  The number of spare P42s in an Amtrak yard doesn't matter if you have collision or breakdown necessitating replacement power hundreds of miles from an Amtrak facility and with freight locomotives closer.
 
A few years ago I was on an Empire Builder that left Seattle with 1 P42 and a BNSF engine. The freight engine was on the train all the way to Chicago. The train arrived in Chicago at 10:45 PM. The sleeper passengers got an extra regular dinner. I had the steak. The coach passengers got the beef stew. 
 
A few years ago I was on an Empire Builder that left Seattle with 1 P42 and a BNSF engine. The freight engine was on the train all the way to Chicago. The train arrived in Chicago at 10:45 PM. The sleeper passengers got an extra regular dinner. I had the steak. The coach passengers got the beef stew. 
I'm guessing that it was possible due to reserve stock not usually touch. As for the beef stew, I'm assuming Dinty Moore (the kind you can find on some vending machines or at Dollar General).
 
A few years ago I was on an Empire Builder that left Seattle with 1 P42 and a BNSF engine. The freight engine was on the train all the way to Chicago. The train arrived in Chicago at 10:45 PM. The sleeper passengers got an extra regular dinner. I had the steak. The coach passengers got the beef stew. 
With a freight engine,  BNSF dispatcher thought they were freight and didn't make them sit on the siding. :giggle:
 
The train in the picture is not actually a freight, at least according to te caption, but a rail washing train.
 
If that is the case, what about the freight engine in the lead if there are enough locomotives?


How many trains leave the original terminal with a freight engine?  The number of spare P42s in an Amtrak yard doesn't matter if you have collision or breakdown necessitating replacement power hundreds of miles from an Amtrak facility and with freight locomotives closer.
To add on to Keelhauled's response,  this is often the best way to return a borrowed unit to an outlying point or the initial terminal.  You put it on the head end so it is easier to set out.
 
If you are using a freight engine at all, it HAS to go on the head end (or else be towed dead-in-train after the last passenger car) as freight locomotives are not set up to carry Head-End Power.
 
To add on to Keelhauled's response,  this is often the best way to return a borrowed unit to an outlying point or the initial terminal.  You put it on the head end so it is easier to set out.


I don’t think I’ve ever seen Amtrak return a freight unit by putting it on the front of a passenger train.

In fact, I remember being in a meeting where a BNSF officer complained about the fact that whenever Amtrak borrowed a locomotive, BNSF had to go and get it from whatever yard the Amtrak train finished its run, and didn’t get paid any extra (beyond the per-mile locomotive leasing fees) for its return.

As for the Empire Builder, there was a time a few years ago where BNSF was requiring three locomotives during the winter because Amtrak locomotives were failing too frequently, and a single engine wouldn’t be able to pull the consist through the area, combined with the fact that harsh winter weather made sending an en-route rescue locomotive difficult.  BNSF didn’t want a passenger train potentially stranded in the middle of Montana on a rail line with no road access in the middle of winter.  Since Amtrak didn’t have enough of it’s own locomotives to add an extra engine to each Empire Builder, they were automatically leaving each initial terminal with a freight unit.

I’ve also seen it happen when they’ve had to detour the Zephyr over the Union Pacific between Chicago and Omaha, because that line has some kind of cab signaling requirement that wasn’t installed on any Amtrak locomotives.
 
As for the Empire Builder, there was a time a few years ago where BNSF was requiring three locomotives during the winter because Amtrak locomotives were failing too frequently, and a single engine wouldn’t be able to pull the consist through the area, combined with the fact that harsh winter weather made sending an en-route rescue locomotive difficult.  BNSF didn’t want a passenger train potentially stranded in the middle of Montana on a rail line with no road access in the middle of winter.  Since Amtrak didn’t have enough of it’s own locomotives to add an extra engine to each Empire Builder, they were automatically leaving each initial terminal with a freight unit.
The main problem with P-42s in winter is it uses DC traction.  Those DC motors are very prone to short out in fine snow that gets into the windings.  Amtrak has had incidents where 2 locos in snow have short out.  Do realize with 4 traction motors on each unit not all may short out.  GE has an improved  model DC traction motor that is somewhat better but still will short out .  There are still many older design DC motors out there.  If we were Amtrak we would dispatch 4 P=42s on the Builder route anytime there was snow forecast along the route.  And other routes 3 when going into snow conditions.  You probably have noticed whenever one or more freight units are added to an Amtrak train that the units are almost always AC traction motors !

DC traction motors occasionally short out in salt spray or sand.  These reasons are why we oppose any new DC traction motored locos on snowy  RRs or ones near salt water locations.  
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The main problem with P-42s in winter is it uses DC traction.  Those DC motors are very prone to short out in fine snow that gets into the windings.  Amtrak has had incidents where 2 locos in snow have short out.  Do realize with 4 traction motors on each unit not all may short out.  GE has an improved  model DC traction motor that is somewhat better but still will short out .  There are still many older design DC motors out there.  If we were Amtrak we would dispatch 4 P=42s on the Builder route anytime there was snow forecast along the route.  And other routes 3 when going into snow conditions.  You probably have noticed whenever one or more freight units are added to an Amtrak train that the units are almost always AC traction motors !

DC traction motors occasionally short out in salt spray or sand.  These reasons are why we oppose any new DC traction motored locos on snowy  RRs or ones near salt water locations.  
Do the P32AC-DMs not have this issue, then?
 
I don’t think I’ve ever seen Amtrak return a freight unit by putting it on the front of a passenger train.
I have....many times, particularly around  RVR,  JAX and SAV.  Perhaps you see more western operations than eastern operations.
 
I understand that. I'm asking if those AC motors ever get shorted out by fine snow and particulate matter.
Yes but is doesn't happen anywhere near as often. Last winter, fine snow wrecked havoc on a particular system on the new Charger.
 
I understand that. I'm asking if those AC motors ever get shorted out by fine snow and particulate matter.
Not impossible of course, but much less likely as the motor is of fundamentally different construction.

The Acilles heel of a DC motor is the commutator where carbon brushes transfer current from the stationary to the moving part. Dirt and particulate matter can get in there and cause short circuits. In an AC motor, the transer of electricity from the static part to the moving part is by induction, so there are no exposed conducting parts that can short.

Unless the motor is physically damaged of course. But that would take either very rough and abrasive particulate matetr or a long period of lackof maintenance or inspection.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
"Brushless" DC motors don't have commutators, of course.

Old-school brushed DC motors with commutators are totally obsolete and basically nobody uses them for anything important any more.  They were the standard tech for 100 years, but not any more.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top