Amtrak train number 9 & 10?

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Texan Eagle

Conductor
Joined
Aug 25, 2011
Messages
1,705
The 5 main western LD trains currently are 1/2 (SSL), 3/4 (SWC), 5/6 (CZ), 7/8 (EB) and 11/14 (CS), so what happened to train numbers 9 and 10? Was there a "train 9/10" in the Amtrak era that does not run anymore? If not, why was that number pair skipped?
 
Yes there was. It was called the Boogeyman Express.
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In all seriousness I don't think there was a train 9 or 10.
 
Is there a 12 and 13? The Starlight is 11 and 14. Wonder why they didnt use 12?
 
Also noted, looking at a current route map...with some exceptions...

East-West routes tend to be single-digit train numbers (except 27/28, 29/30 and others, etc.);

North-South routes tend to be double-digit train numbers (except 421/422 (which has an E-W component), etc.);

"Regionals" tend to be three-digit.
 
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Au contraire: The North Coast Hiawatha was #9/#10.

http://timetables.org/full.php?group=19730610&item=0041
Ah! Interesting! So at one point Amtrak was running *two* long-distance trains on almost similar route? North Coast Hiawatha and Empire Builder?? How long did that arrangement last?
The EB was the GN route; the Hiawatha the NP route. I suspect it was an inherited arrangement that didn't survive the Carter cuts. As for the amenities, they were probably inherited from the original railroads.
I rode the North Coast Limited and its much less heralded (and equipped) secondary train, the Mainstreeter. Only time I've ever been on a train that was more than 24 hours late. Missed the connection to the General, ended up on the Admiral instead. A snack bar coach Chicago to Philly for food and cold sandwiches as the food option. They ran out of sandwiches by Pittsburgh except for peanut butter sandwiches-even sold out of the PB&J ones. One of my enduring childhood train memories.
 
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Is there a 12 and 13? The Starlight is 11 and 14. Wonder why they didnt use 12?
When SP still operated on timetable authority, all trains were designated eastbound or westbound from San Francisco. The SP train operating train numbers for Amtrak's Coast Starlight southbound were 11 (westbound towards San Franciso) and 12 (eastbound away from San Francico). Northbound they were 13 (westbound towards San Francisco) and 14 (eastbound away from San Francisco). The operating train numbers changed at Oakland.
They weren't in the Amtrak public timetables. Although SP moved away from timetable authority in the 1980s, the Starlight still uses train numbers that were affected by the practice.

BTW, the equivalent trains under SP operation were the Coast Daylight 98/99 between San Francisco and Los Angeles and the Cascade 11/12 between Oakland and Portland. Not sure what 13 and 14 were under SP but they were not Coast Line trains and certainly were not passenger trains operating on on the eve of Amtrak.
 
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Also noted, looking at a current route map...with some exceptions...

East-West routes tend to be single-digit train numbers (except 27/28, 29/30 and others, etc.);

North-South routes tend to be double-digit train numbers (except 421/422 (which has an E-W component), etc.);

"Regionals" tend to be three-digit.
I think it's more that the East-West routes are crazy long (and pretty important) and they get first dibs on train numbers. And the fact that there are a ton of Regionals means that they need a lot of three-digit numbers. So I don't think there's any intentional system or tendency - it just strikes me as circumstantial.
 
Actually, early in its existence Amtrak rationalized its train number and reassigned numbers to a lot of trains. That is when they decided to allocate single digit and low numbers to the trans-continental trains, low south to high north. There was no North Coast Hiawatha in the original plan, so it got the next available pair after the core transcons had been assigned numbers.
 
I do remember riding #9 CHI>SEA only a few years after the dawn of Amtrak. It was a very nice train -- at least that trip. And my journal tells me it was on time!

I especially recall a very nice lounge with a bar including swivel seats, and an actual bartender who could make serious cocktails. Spent a lot of time hanging out there. Great staff in the lounge, diner, coach, and sleeper (I was on a 14-day Railpass and alternated between coach and sleeper when I could swing it).
 
I do remember riding #9 CHI>SEA only a few years after the dawn of Amtrak. It was a very nice train -- at least that trip. And my journal tells me it was on time!

I especially recall a very nice lounge with a bar including swivel seats, and an actual bartender who could make serious cocktails. Spent a lot of time hanging out there. Great staff in the lounge, diner, coach, and sleeper (I was on a 14-day Railpass and alternated between coach and sleeper when I could swing it).
Sounds like the Canadian. Do your recall if the food was any good?
 
Regarding San Francisco, I always wondered if long-distance inter-city trains went into the city proper before Amtrak - and where the tracks were located that accessed the city. If I'm understanding "The Traveler" above it sounds like trains did indeed go into the city at one time. Am I understanding correctly?

Have any Amtrak trains actually arrived in and departed from San Francisco proper?
 
I do remember riding #9 CHI>SEA only a few years after the dawn of Amtrak. It was a very nice train -- at least that trip. And my journal tells me it was on time!

I especially recall a very nice lounge with a bar including swivel seats, and an actual bartender who could make serious cocktails. Spent a lot of time hanging out there. Great staff in the lounge, diner, coach, and sleeper (I was on a 14-day Railpass and alternated between coach and sleeper when I could swing it).
Sounds like the Canadian. Do your recall if the food was any good?
I rode the old Canadian in 1979, and the current Canadian in 2017. The food on The Canadian was better each time than anything I recall ever having on Amtrak. Having said that, Amtrak until the last few years had decent food; once in awhile very good food. As for the bar on #9 in the '70s, it was far better than what I experienced on The Canadian last year. Better selection, someone who was legitimately a mixologist, and a rather good conversationalist. I don't recall the bar situation on The Canadian in 1979 but I'm sure it must have been good...it was The Canadian.
 
Regarding San Francisco, I always wondered if long-distance inter-city trains went into the city proper before Amtrak - and where the tracks were located that accessed the city. If I'm understanding "The Traveler" above it sounds like trains did indeed go into the city at one time. Am I understanding correctly?

Have any Amtrak trains actually arrived in and departed from San Francisco proper?
Southern Pacific served the old Third and Townshend depot (right near today's 4th and King Street Station) with tons of LD trains.
 
Southern Pacific served the old Third and Townshend depot (right near today's 4th and King Street Station) with tons of LD trains.
Among others the Coast Daylight up until A-Day. Then Amtrak changed it to a northern terminus of Oakland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coast_Daylight).

IMO it's a shame Amtrak doesn't serve San Francisco anymore. The only feasible way I guess to serve the city would be southbound to San Jose/LAX. Amtrak should have kept some trains running to San Fran and some to Oakland/Seattle. 
 
Southern Pacific served the old Third and Townshend depot (right near today's 4th and King Street Station) with tons of LD trains.
No, Charles, you did not understand correctly, and cpotisch is incorrect about "tons" of LD trains.

The only LD trains that went directly into San Francisco were Coast Line trains.  The Coast Daylight, the Lark, the Starlight, among others, to LA.  Just like 4th & King, 3rd & Townsend, one block to the east, was primarily a commuter station for the Peninsula commutes.  The only non-commute rail service serving San Francisco directly just before Amtrak were the Coast Daylight to Los Angeles and the Del Monte to Monterey.

Any other long distance service, aside from trains heading south down the Coast Line, trains serving all points north and east as well as trains heading south via the inland route through the San Joaquin Valley, terminated at the Oakland Mole.  Passengers heading to San Francisco transferred to SP's ferries at the Mole, arriving in San Francisco at the Ferry Terminal.  Arguably, San Francisco's primary rail station for long distance service was the Ferry Terminal, not Third & Townsend.   Trains such as the City of San Francisco, the Overland, the Cascade, the Shasta Daylight, the Owl, the San Joaquin Daylight all terminated at the Oakland Mole.  If you want to see someone make that connection, watch Frank Sinatra's journey in the first 5 minutes of "Pal Joey".

After SP terminated ferry service in 1958, SP instituted bus service across the Bay Bridge between their San Francisco Third & Townsend station and the Oakland station at 16th & Wood to provide connections to their long distance trains.  The arrangement was much like Amtrak uses today, although SP only served Third & Townsend, not the multiple bus stops in the City that Amtrak does.

Amtrak wanted to through route the former Coast Daylight and Cascade trains on Amday, which required the former Coast Daylight to be rerouted out of San Francisco and into Oakland.  Since the Cascade only ran 3 days a week, and Amtrak initially kept that 3 day a week schedule, the "Coast Daylight/Starlight" (its initial Amtrak name) continued beyond Oakland, the other 4 days it terminated in Oakland.  Today's Coast Starlight is the result of the combination of those two trains, the Coast Starlight and the Cascade. 

Also, WP's California Zephyr used the Oakland Mole and SP's ferries.  After 1958 they also used SP's Third and Townsend station but with their own bus service that went to WP's Middle Harbor Road yard to connect with the train.  Santa Fe had their own terminal and their own buses.

As a minor point, since San Francisco was "Milepost 0" for SP, there were actually two locations for "Milepost 0".  For the Coast Line, it was bumper post at Third & Townsend.  For everything else, it was the hinge of the ramp at the Ferry Building.
 
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When I rode the WP CZ to Oakland’s Middle Harbor Road in 1969, we were met by a Santa Fe “Train-Bus”, that took us to Santa Fe’s 44 Fourth Street terminal in San Francisco.

SP train passenger’s were conveyed by chartered Western Greyhound Lines bused from the 16th and Wood Oakland station to the San Francisco 3rd and Townshend station.
 
The 5 main western LD trains currently are 1/2 (SSL), 3/4 (SWC), 5/6 (CZ), 7/8 (EB) and 11/14 (CS), so what happened to train numbers 9 and 10? Was there a "train 9/10" in the Amtrak era that does not run anymore? If not, why was that number pair skipped?
Besides the North Coast Hiawatha, IIRC, later on those numbers were also used by the Arrowhead, and then Northstar trains which ran to Duluth....
 
My recollection of my 1961 Official Guide was that at that time, WP was using the SP buses and serving 3rd & Townsend.  I wasn't at home when I responded and didn't have access and am not now.  When I get home I will check that.
 
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