Switching Locations?

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Bronzeman

Train Attendant
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
80
Location
Southport NC
I was recently looking at a 1971 timetable and was struck by the number of locations where passenger cars were added or cut out to provide effective through service.

While I am sure that there are others that I am missing, I can think of only three locations where such activity occurs today: LSL, EB and SL/TE. Are there others.

While I recognize that height differences between Superliners and Viewliners have made it impossible on transcontinental routings and the labor and other costs have made it impractical elsewhere, the loss was nonetheless a shame. It was certainly convenient in the late 70s to have an overnight hotel room in NOL on the Southern Crescent/Sunset routing.
 
If we're being more broad than just trains that split or have cars transferred between them, there are some other examples. On the Palmetto they tack on a couple coaches north of Washington for the extra demand for corridor service. The Empire Builder has the extra 807/808 coach between MSP and CHI. And finally the Texas Eagle has the 321/322 coach between St. Louis and Chicago. To my knowledge, those are the only other examples of cars being added/removed en route.
 
The river cities was a pretty neat connection, when I rode it was just a single coach that went from the city of new Orleans train to St. Louis where it was added to the mornings Kansas city train.

I also remember riding the Crescent when cars were added in Birmingham and the Texas Eagle when it split in Dallas.
 
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I think all concerned must recognize that Amtrak avoids intermediate point switching to the fullest extent possible. The days of a 1962 journey on SRY 38,The Crescent, I once took from Atlanta Terminal Station to "Old Penn", where a Pullman was first added at Greenville, three more plus Coaches at Charlotte, cut Coaches and two Pullman's at Wash, add cars from the SAL Palmland, then a Norfolk NY Pullman to New York, are history.

Conceivably, if Amtrak was interested in minimizing train miles such as were all the roads as "The End" drew near, they could do things as combine the Chief and Zephyr CHI-GBB where if on time "chase markers". Same with Star and Meteor SAV-TPA-MIA, but they fail to see any economy from that. Further, as those around here who "do this stuff for a living" know, there is far more to adding and cutting today; what with 480V lines and FRA Regs unheard of fifty years ago (I'm simply horrified when overseas I see a Carman standing between the buffers and the link and pin).

Finally, with the evident obversion Amtrak holds to intermediate switching, I'm utterly astounded that 448-449, Lake Shore, was restored as a through BOS-CHI train by the Boardman regime after it was cut by the Gunn. In all likelihood, political deference far outweighed anything like passenger convenience.
 
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Running a Boston to Albany (separate) train permanently would almost definitely trigger state financing requirements since it would no longer be a part of a LD train. Adding or dropping cars, especially when done in conjunction with a power swap is not a big deal, especially since the cars should be empty. There are a few places where it wouldn't be a bad thing, but logistics make it impractical (think Atlanta) But in terms of the original question, none come to my mind now, but if there are any others, someone will reply.
 
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Finally, with the evident obversion Amtrak holds to intermediate switching, I'm utterly astounded that 448-449, Lake Shore, was restored as a through BOS-CHI train by the Boardman regime after it was cut by the Gunn. In all likelihood, political deference far outweighed anything like passenger convenience.
New England does not get any long distance service other than the LSL. As PVD said, since a BOS-ALB stub train would likely count as a short distance service, it would need state funding. And switching operations in Albany are already incredibly simple. First the sole P32AC-DM detaches from the NY section, then the Boston section reverses in and couples to the NY section. That's it. One locomotive detaches and then the Boston section attaches. I don't see what the point would be in ditching the Boston LSL.
 
The cross platform wasn't that bad, but if it was permanent, the potential financial implications could easily cause its demise. Also, a stub adds the labor and time of baggage transfer, since their would be no through bag to/from Boston. It also means committing an additional 2 cars, since 2 of the 3 cafe/club would still be needed on the Boston section and you would then need 3 cafes for the NYP sets (am-2 food service used prior to arrival of VL2 are probably available, but you are tanking 1st class if they are used)
 
One place where it would be nice to combine trains would be New Haven...currently, I believe only 2 trains run through from New York to Springfield or beyond...used to be almost all of them would....
 
If you want to look at how complex thru cars were look no farther than the 1952 Official Guide of Railways on timetableworld.com. Promptly then look at the New York Central, Pennsylvania Railroad, Seaboard Airline, and Atlantic Coastline to get an idea for how complex it was.

For instance the Tidewater (Norfolk-Raleigh) had a thru sleeper to Florida. Here is the route southbound.

Tidewater to Raleigh. Silver Comet(Birmingham train) to Hamlet NC. Sunland from Hamlet to Florida.
 
There used to be several trains that added or removed cars at multiple points on their routes....the pre-Amtrak C&O George Washington was a good example of that, splitting off into different routes at those points, besides just adding or dropping a car.

UP was another that its core trunk split off into different routes at each end...
 
One place where it would be nice to combine trains would be New Haven...currently, I believe only 2 trains run through from New York to Springfield or beyond...used to be almost all of them would....
Before Amtrak strung overhead from New Haven to Boston about 2000, most Boston bound trains split off the front cars and those went to Springfield. The opposite occurred southbound. It was truly a fully choreographed operation that consistently had the electric disconnected and moved ahead, diesel #1 was perhaps 5-6 car lengths ahead on a pocket track, I think, and backed up, hooked on, air and HEP connected, and we were consistently gone in 15 minutes or less. The diesel for Boston followed the same choreography. Southbound, they still have a pocket track last time I looked between track 1 & 3, and there always used to be an electric waiting there for both southbound sections to arrive and engines cut off.

Albany can only DREAM of such efficiency. I don't think they've done the cut-the-HEP to HEP-restored and train assembled/disassembled in less than 30 minutes!

Cross platform transfer isn't that bad, as long as the other train is there and waiting. This past Thursday, making the transfer from #174 to #474, the Springfield shuttle was a good 1/2 mile south of the platform still crossing over to get to track 2. Everyone stood outside in the hot sun or shade a good 5 minutes or so before it pulled into the station. If it was pouring rain or super cold & snowy, all the passengers would have to take it, as there's very little of each platform under cover.
 
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There used to be several trains that added or removed cars at multiple points on their routes....the pre-Amtrak C&O George Washington was a good example of that, splitting off into different routes at those points, besides just adding or dropping a car.

UP was another that its core trunk split off into different routes at each end...
Well the UP towards the end had the "City of Everywhere" which really was a huge complicated mess of a train. With a section to Portland, San Fransisco, Los Angeles, and Denver. Going east it had sections for Chicago and St Louis.

I've seen anecdotal evidence that if the ICC would have allowed the Santa Fe to cancel the Grand Canyon (Chicago-Los Angeles) and combine the Super Chief/El Capitan, Texas Chief, and the San Fransisco Chief into one train over parts of the route. That the Santa Fe would have stayed out of Amtrak.

I have heard Amtrak played s roll in that not happening because Amtrak's creators were eyeing the superb collection of cars Santa Fe had.
 
One place where it would be nice to combine trains would be New Haven...currently, I believe only 2 trains run through from New York to Springfield or beyond...used to be almost all of them would....
How would combining trains in New Haven help with that?
 
There used to be several trains that added or removed cars at multiple points on their routes....the pre-Amtrak C&O George Washington was a good example of that, splitting off into different routes at those points, besides just adding or dropping a car.

UP was another that its core trunk split off into different routes at each end...
Well the UP towards the end had the "City of Everywhere" which really was a huge complicated mess of a train. With a section to Portland, San Fransisco, Los Angeles, and Denver. Going east it had sections for Chicago and St Louis.
Remind me, where did the City of Everywhere split?
 
One place where it would be nice to combine trains would be New Haven...currently, I believe only 2 trains run through from New York to Springfield or beyond...used to be almost all of them would....
How would combining trains in New Haven help with that?
By offering more than two trains a day with "one seat rides" between New York and stations on the Springfield line...
 
There used to be several trains that added or removed cars at multiple points on their routes....the pre-Amtrak C&O George Washington was a good example of that, splitting off into different routes at those points, besides just adding or dropping a car.

UP was another that its core trunk split off into different routes at each end...
Well the UP towards the end had the "City of Everywhere" which really was a huge complicated mess of a train. With a section to Portland, San Fransisco, Los Angeles, and Denver. Going east it had sections for Chicago and St Louis.
Remind me, where did the City of Everywhere split?
The train would leave Chicago on the Milwaukee Road to Omaha, and at North Platte, the 'City of Denver' would cut off, and head to Denver via Sterling and LaSalle. It actually left the mainline at Julesburg. Upon reaching Cheyenne, the 'City of St. Louis', which started out on the Norfolk and Western (former Wabash) from St. Louis to Kansas City, and then via Salina and Denver to Cheyenne. Upon reaching Green River, the 'City of Portland' would cut out, and diverge from the mainline at Granger to McCammon, over the old OSL enroute to Portland. At Ogden, the 'City of San Francisco', would cut out, and via the Southern Pacific cross over the Lucin cutoff to Reno and Oakland. The 'City of Los Angeles' would continue on to Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, briefly join the Santa Fe transcon line at Dagget, and then back onto UP rails after Cajon Pass into Los Angeles. The train carried the City of Los Angeles numbers, 103 and 104 the entire route from Chicago to Los Angeles...
 
It split in quite a few places I believe. Cheyenne, Ogden, North Platte and probably a few other places. It was a huge mess.
I thought the Denver section left the mainline at Julesberg, and did not go all the way to Borie. But I could be wrong. Vague memory.
 
It split in quite a few places I believe. Cheyenne, Ogden, North Platte and probably a few other places. It was a huge mess.
I thought the Denver section left the mainline at Julesberg, and did not go all the way to Borie. But I could be wrong. Vague memory.
The 'City of Denver' Train 111 &112, was separated at North Platte, and duplicated the mileage from there to Julesburg, where the routes actually diverged...there wasn't much in Julesburg to support cutting off there. Borie is on the far side of Cheyenne, where the different line coming up from Denver and LaSalle join the mainline to Laramie and beyond...

Same reason the 'City of Portland' Train 105 &106, separated at Green River, a support base, rather than the actual junction at tiny Granger....
 
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There used to be several trains that added or removed cars at multiple points on their routes....the pre-Amtrak C&O George Washington was a good example of that, splitting off into different routes at those points, besides just adding or dropping a car.

UP was another that its core trunk split off into different routes at each end...
Well the UP towards the end had the "City of Everywhere" which really was a huge complicated mess of a train. With a section to Portland, San Fransisco, Los Angeles, and Denver. Going east it had sections for Chicago and St Louis.
Remind me, where did the City of Everywhere split?
The train would leave Chicago on the Milwaukee Road to Omaha, and at North Platte, the 'City of Denver' would cut off, and head to Denver via Sterling and LaSalle. It actually left the mainline at Julesburg. Upon reaching Cheyenne, the 'City of St. Louis', which started out on the Norfolk and Western (former Wabash) from St. Louis to Kansas City, and then via Salina and Denver to Cheyenne. Upon reaching Green River, the 'City of Portland' would cut out, and diverge from the mainline at Granger to McCammon, over the old OSL enroute to Portland. At Ogden, the 'City of San Francisco', would cut out, and via the Southern Pacific cross over the Lucin cutoff to Reno and Oakland. The 'City of Los Angeles' would continue on to Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, briefly join the Santa Fe transcon line at Dagget, and then back onto UP rails after Cajon Pass into Los Angeles. The train carried the City of Los Angeles numbers, 103 and 104 the entire route from Chicago to Los Angeles...
Wow. Thank you!
 
We must remember that all these locations that UP did switching had regular yard crews working times that bracketed the arrivals of the trains. Therefore the yard crews could drop their yard work and switch the trains. That metric probably also applied to most locations that switched cars. NY Central at Buffalo might have had dedicated crews.

Now Amtrak does not have that ability. Using freight yard crews is not an option due to its costs. So switching Amtrak cars now is not an option.
 
Just to try to make it a bit clearer...the City of Denver terminated in Denver....

The City of St. Louis, coming from Kansas City, left Denver for Cheyenne to be added to the "City of Everywhere", before the City of Denver arrived in Denver. It followed the same pattern as its Amtrak successor, the San Francisco Zephyr, in that it ran "backwards" from Denver to Cheyenne, and return, or else would have had to be wyed twice...in Denver and Cheyenne, as the connection from the Denver line to the main line was at Speer Jct., west of Cheyenne...

The City of Denver, and the City of St. Louis on their "westbound" trips, actually ran in opposite directions on the 50 mile stretch (geographically south and north) between LaSalle and Denver.

Having a good railroad map, makes everything clearer....
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If we're being more broad than just trains that split or have cars transferred between them, there are some other examples. On the Palmetto they tack on a couple coaches north of Washington for the extra demand for corridor service. The Empire Builder has the extra 807/808 coach between MSP and CHI. And finally the Texas Eagle has the 321/322 coach between St. Louis and Chicago. To my knowledge, those are the only other examples of cars being added/removed en route.
The Vermonters typically gets cars added/cut at NHV, since ridership north of NHV doesn't typically require the additional coach. Several Virginia bound Regionals get cars added/cut in Washington as well. That was the supposed reason for moving business class and the quiet car to the rear. It would make for one less equipment move for the yard crew.
 
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